Does any one have a street legal LSx swap in CA?

[Risu2112]

Hello!

I am putting an LS2 or (maybe an LS1) into my 1990 S13 next month or so for some reason. I have the ambitious plan of getting the swap certified here in california, Does any one know if ANYONE has ever successfully made an 240sx +LSx swap street legal in this crappy state (visual & smog check)? Or also any one that tried and failed too?

This is about to be a very expensive experiment...

[PXRdriFT]

I haven't heard of anyone doing it. I think the problem lies in the headers.

[98s14inaz]

Hello!

I am putting an LS2 or (maybe an LS1) into my 1990 S13 next month or so for some reason. I have the ambitious plan of getting the swap certified here in california, Does any one know if ANYONE has ever successfully made an 240sx +LSx swap street legal in this crappy state (visual & smog check)? Or also any one that tried and failed too?

This is about to be a very expensive experiment...

I wish you luck. It may be cheaper to move out of commiefornia and do the swap in another state. The headers and anything else that isn't oem are definitely going to ding you when you try to emission that thing.

[Risu2112]

It looks like we're going to take the factory header and just bend it around the steering column, all the carb stuff will still be on it so I think that part will pass alright.

[g6civcx]

all the carb stuff will still be on it so I think that part will pass alright.

You may want to check that. No Chevy I know has carbs in 90 or newer.

In order to be legal you have to replicate a setup from a 90 or newer model.

[Risu2112]

You may want to check that. No Chevy I know has carbs in 90 or newer.

In order to be legal you have to replicate a setup from a 90 or newer model.

What I'm saying is if I use the factory header I would be safe, and I'm just banking on them not noticing it's bent to get around the column.

[murda-c]

You may want to check that. No Chevy I know has carbs in 90 or newer.

In order to be legal you have to replicate a setup from a 90 or newer model.


carb stands for California Air Resources Board

[whiteytighties]

From what I remember on the DMV's website a few yrs ago the engine must be of the same make as the vehicle and engine must be of same yr or newer than the vehicle to be legal.

[!Zar!]

Same year or newer.

Doesn't have to be same make.

As long as it utilizes all the oem equipment off of the new motor then you're fine.

[Risu2112]

Same year or newer.

Doesn't have to be same make.

As long as it utilizes all the oem equipment off of the new motor then you're fine.

Yeah, this is correct, make of the engine doesn't matter, the car gets tested as if it were the platform that normally uses the engine.

[PROJECT240SX]

I know of a 1991 FC RX-7 that is CA legal. From what I was told he ended up going down to San Diego to referee the car after being nitpicked like crazy by the local referee.

[98s14inaz]

carb stands for California Air Resources Board

What he said ^ Beat me to it.

[KA-T_240]

How would making headers affect emissions? As long as its tuned right and has the proper cats... its not going to do more poluting then the stock ones.

Stupid CARB

[racepar1]

If you pull it off man you should post it up in the v-8 240 faq. I really don't wanna bastardize my 240 that much, but carb legal may be enough to push me over the edge.

[GSXRJJordan]

I've talked to a few guys around here that have FC LS1 swaps...

The headers are an issue, but only because any "performance" headers relocate/remove the cats. If you make headers that retain the "factory" LSx cat location (right by where the motor meets the trans, on either side) you should be OK with visual. Passing emissions won't be a problem.

Like everyone said, the CARB ruling says that a motor swap can only be legalized if the motor being swapped in is smog-legal in the car it came in, and is the same year or newer than the chassis.

[g6civcx]

carb stands for California Air Resources Board

Oh, my fault. I thought he meant carbureted, not CARB. Yes, leave all the CARB stuff on there.

[blu808]

I can do a carb legal lsx-240 swap if you need any work done. Custom (carb legal) headers, wiring, hp tuners ecu editing, etc.

[StaticX27]

I've talked to a few guys around here that have FC LS1 swaps...

The headers are an issue, but only because any "performance" headers relocate/remove the cats. If you make headers that retain the "factory" LSx cat location (right by where the motor meets the trans, on either side) you should be OK with visual. Passing emissions won't be a problem.

Like everyone said, the CARB ruling says that a motor swap can only be legalized if the motor being swapped in is smog-legal in the car it came in, and is the same year or newer than the chassis.

Not entirely true. You can swap a motor from the same chassis (such as a honda getting a B16 instead of a D16) without needing a ref's approval. However, you can drop a motor from any car into a US chassis as long as you have the approval from your local referee, thereby getting a BAR sticker.

[Risu2112]

Thanks for all the help guys, and yeah if it turns out to be successful I'll be all over the V-8 FAQ thread.

As for actual engine cost, the cheapest new LS2's I'm finding are around 5200 w/o the trans, I'm not 100% fixed on getting a new one, Is that a fair price for one of these? Or can a new one be obtained cheaper than that. Also for the T56 trans, I'm seeing new ones at about 2400... ;_; I would love to shave a little off the price for those if any one knows how to obtain one cheaper. I don't really feel like sitting around for months waiting for a gem of a wrecked car to pick up for cheap. :P

Blu808: Out of curiosity, Have you actually seen one pass yet? I might have to take you up on some of that stuff after I get shut down by the ref a few times :)

[StaticX27]

Why not go to a state ref and say "Hi, I've got this and I want to do this. What do you need to make this a BAR legal swap?"

I mean we can all sit here and guess all day long, but the ref is the one who's going to make the decision ultimately, so why not get your laundry list of things to do from the guy who will be approving you? Information is free, dreams are free; refs get paid by the hour.

[Risu2112]

The engines on it's way, should have all my parts by febuary, my intention is to have the car running in early march, I am going to drive it around for a few months before attempting smog.

Need some help with the rear end though, I really like the quaife's but I can't even find one for my application, also they are really pricey, failing that I might be looking at a 1.5 way clutch rear end, but like I said I'd rather have the quaife, I don't want one of the VLSD's though. :<

If any one has any advice on the rear end please drop it in here.

[sldbyuramg]

How would making headers affect emissions? As long as its tuned right and has the proper cats... its not going to do more poluting then the stock ones.

Stupid CARB

doesnt effect emissions...that is correct. but it effects "smog" standards for CA

and to correct you for saying "stupid CARB" CARB is the board that allows californians to have aftermarket parts as long as it meets there requirements. if we didnt have CARB we wouldnt be allowed to modify anything in CA.

[Risu2112]

Oh yes, by the way my engine has arrived, it was surprisingly complete! Hoping to get a clean bill of health on it within a week or so!

http://kenohki2112.homestead.com/files/240sx/LS/love2.jpg

Clearly I need to have a talk with the shop about storing empty cardboard boxes on my engine, don't want them to dent my transmission housing >.>

[PhilthyS13]

I don't like CARB either, but it's necessary. Why?

Here's why: we have the top 5 polluted cities in the country. 6 in the top 10. WITH all those carb restrictions in place. Second place goes to Texas, with a mere 2.

Other than CARB restrictions, this place ain't that bad. I like it here. Having great beaches, great skiiing (both within 3 hours of each other), lots of jobs, hot girls and rust free cars makes a few smog laws worth it.

Ten Most Polluted U.S. Cities (Ozone Rated Only)

1. Los Angeles (Long Beach, Calif., Riverside, Calif.)
2. Bakersfield, Calif.
3. Fresno-Madera, Calif.
4. Visalia-Porterville, Calif.
5. Merced, Calif.
6. Houston (Baytown, Huntsville, Tex.)
7. Sacramento (Arden, Calif., Arcade, Calif., Truckee, Nev.)
8. Dallas/Forth Worth
9. New York (Newark, N.J., Bridgeport, Conn.)
10. Philadelphia (Camden, N.J., Vineland, N.J.)

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=165337

[turtl631]

I don't live in Cali and probably won't ever, but I'll say this- it seems like the emissions laws there go way too far in terms of things that offer only marginal decreases in CO2, etc. emissions while severely punishing enthusiasts. I don't see why they couldn't just do a sniffer test on modified cars like most states; who cares what's in it if it's not polluting significantly more than most cars?

[Creizai]

I don't live in Cali and probably won't ever, but I'll say this- it seems like the emissions laws there go way too far in terms of things that offer only marginal decreases in CO2, etc. emissions while severely punishing enthusiasts. I don't see why they couldn't just do a sniffer test on modified cars like most states; who cares what's in it if it's not polluting significantly more than most cars?

Eh I would say its just more of a fun challenge that can be handled if your smart. Plus a street legal cali 400hp street legal car is pretty hardcore in a different way.

[Anto]

I don't live in Cali and probably won't ever, but I'll say this- it seems like the emissions laws there go way too far in terms of things that offer only marginal decreases in CO2, etc. emissions while severely punishing enthusiasts. I don't see why they couldn't just do a sniffer test on modified cars like most states; who cares what's in it if it's not polluting significantly more than most cars?

CALIFORNIA DOES.

CA holds records for many things.
Most expensive home price,
best looking people,
most car thieves
top 100 cities to live in

etc.

this has some to do with the topic,
but

http://www.thegiantpeach.com/ProductImages/main/detailed/brands/true/winter06/121006/TSS2096B-500.jpg

[kingkilburn]

I don't like CARB either, but it's necessary. Why?

Here's why: we have the top 5 polluted cities in the country. 6 in the top 10. WITH all those carb restrictions in place. Second place goes to Texas, with a mere 2.

Ten Most Polluted U.S. Cities (Ozone Rated Only)

1. Los Angeles (Long Beach, Calif., Riverside, Calif.)
2. Bakersfield, Calif.
3. Fresno-Madera, Calif.
4. Visalia-Porterville, Calif.
5. Merced, Calif.
6. Houston (Baytown, Huntsville, Tex.)
7. Sacramento (Arden, Calif., Arcade, Calif., Truckee, Nev.)
8. Dallas/Forth Worth
9. New York (Newark, N.J., Bridgeport, Conn.)
10. Philadelphia (Camden, N.J., Vineland, N.J.)

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=165337

That is a little missleading. Most(try 95%) of the polution in #2-5 comes from LA. The wind blows into the valley and has a hard time finding its way out, hence Bakersfield being number two even though there isn't any thing there.

[mmdb]

There's a few FD chassis Rx7's running around Cali who've passed the state ref. I came across one that did have to do a header modification who did end up passing.

[Risu2112]

There's a few FD chassis Rx7's running around Cali who've passed the state ref. I came across one that did have to do a header modification who did end up passing.

That's certainly good news :)

[PhilthyS13]

That is a little missleading. Most(try 95%) of the polution in #2-5 comes from LA. The wind blows into the valley and has a hard time finding its way out, hence Bakersfield being number two even though there isn't any thing there.

Yeah, but it's still all CA. It's not like smog blowing up from TJ or from NJ to NY. That's the very reason that those laws were enacted, it has everything to do with LA polluting the surrounding area aka the rest of California. We just have too many people (hence ludicrous real estate prices).

If you live in the middle of nowhere (Trinity), the only time you have to smog is transfer of ownership. So it matters which county you live in.


hence Bakersfield being number two even though there isn't any thing there.
Lol, you said that Bakersfield is "number two."

[4thHorse]

Is it true that places high north in cali don't smog there cars. I was told places like napa don't have to smog.

[racepar1]

What idiot told you that!!!??? The smog laws are the same for the whole STATE!

[soreballz]

Same year or newer.

Doesn't have to be same make.

As long as it utilizes all the oem equipment off of the new motor then you're fine.
Truth.


Like everyone said, the CARB ruling says that a motor swap can only be legalized if the motor being swapped in is smog-legal in the car it came in, and is the same year or newer than the chassis.
Again, truth.

Not entirely true. You can swap a motor from the same chassis (such as a honda getting a B16 instead of a D16) without needing a ref's approval. However, you can drop a motor from any car into a US chassis as long as you have the approval from your local referee, thereby getting a BAR sticker.
WRONG. You can't *legally* pass smog in say, a '92 Civic Si hatch with a B16 in it, even if its a 100% stock motor from a '99 Si coupe, UNLESS IT IS BAR-APPROVED. ANYTIME you swap ANY motor than is not the OEM engine for that particular year, it needs to be ref-approved. Even KA-E to KA-DE swaps need BAR-approval to be legal.
Also, you can't swap any motor into any car... The engine has to come out of a car that is the same year or newer.

Get your facts straight before spreading false information, please.

Why not go to a state ref and say "Hi, I've got this and I want to do this. What do you need to make this a BAR legal swap?"

That, however, is an excellent idea.

doesnt effect emissions...that is correct. but it effects "smog" standards for CA

and to correct you for saying "stupid CARB" CARB is the board that allows californians to have aftermarket parts as long as it meets there requirements. if we didnt have CARB we wouldnt be allowed to modify anything in CA.
No... The CARB works their asses off to make modifying cars here a pain in the ass. If you want to thank any one organization for allowing us to mod cars here in CA, thank SEMA. They fight with the CARB on a regular basis.


Need some help with the rear end though, I really like the quaife's but I can't even find one for my application, also they are really pricey, failing that I might be looking at a 1.5 way clutch rear end, but like I said I'd rather have the quaife, I don't want one of the VLSD's though. :<

If any one has any advice on the rear end please drop it in here.
What will you be using the car for? Street/drag? Street/drift? Strictly daily?
Q45 diffs are great if you want rear end with taller gears.
http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=172393
You can ditch the VLSD in the Q45 diff in favor of something better.
If you're fine with the stock gearing, I've heard good things about the ATS/Carbonetics 1.5 way LSD. They are pricey, though, unless you find one used.
If you're going to run very sticky tires and/or drag race the car, I'd suggest swapping to either a Q45 rear since it is good and strong, or swapping out the stock 6-bolt axles for the JDM 5-bolt axles, which are stonger than the 6-bolt axles.

What idiot told you that!!!??? The smog laws are the same for the whole STATE!
lol, you're wrong as well. It varies from county to county.

[Risu2112]

The car is going to be used for daily driving pretty often, my intention is to optimize it for the track though, 1.5 way with a 3.08 ratio would be ideal. I don't really need it any higher than 3.08 since I'll be having so many traction issues as it is. I'll look into the ones you recommended. ^^

[ma71supraturbo]

What idiot told you that!!!??? The smog laws are the same for the whole STATE!

Wrong. There is a reason why it is hard to get a PO box in Trinity and Humboldt counties...

[kingkilburn]

Lol, you said that Bakersfield is "number two."

The only good thing out of that shit hole is Korn and even it stinks now:fart:

[JRas]

WRONG. You can't *legally* pass smog in say, a '92 Civic Si hatch with a B16 in it, even if its a 100% stock motor from a '99 Si coupe, UNLESS IT IS BAR-APPROVED. ANYTIME you swap ANY motor than is not the OEM engine for that particular year, it needs to be ref-approved. Even KA-E to KA-DE swaps need BAR-approval to be legal.
Also, you can't swap any motor into any car... The engine has to come out of a car that is the same year or newer.

Get your facts straight before spreading false information, please.

so will a ref approve a LS1 swap into an S13/S14?

newer engine than chassis .. check
smog legal engine ... check

[ma71supraturbo]

so will a ref approve a LS1 swap into an S13/S14?

newer engine than chassis .. check
smog legal engine ... check

Yes, assuming all the OEM smog stuff is there. You are allowed to fabricate different piping to make it work in your engine bay, but you have to use stock injectors/ecu/maf in addition to EGR, charcol cannister, and the # & placement of cats...

[Risu2112]

Yes, assuming all the OEM smog stuff is there. You are allowed to fabricate different piping to make it work in your engine bay, but you have to use stock injectors/ecu/maf in addition to EGR, charcol cannister, and the # & placement of cats...

With the exception of the headers I believe, not sure if your counting that with "piping" or not. The headers need to be factory, or CARB certified aftermarket.

[ma71supraturbo]

With the exception of the headers I believe, not sure if your counting that with "piping" or not. The headers need to be factory, or CARB certified aftermarket.

They don't have to be factory if you can document that they wouldn't fit in their original configuration. But you will have to make sure the catalytic converters are in the same location(s) as the OEM manifolds (by location I mean same distance from engine so they warm up as quickly as stock). It is definitely more work (and some referees will discourage you), but it is possible.

[PhilthyS13]

What idiot told you that!!!??? The smog laws are the same for the whole STATE!

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/ftp/pdfdocs/program_map.pdf

You learn something new every day.

[gigimow]

Oh yes, by the way my engine has arrived, it was surprisingly complete! Hoping to get a clean bill of health on it within a week or so!

Clearly I need to have a talk with the shop about storing empty cardboard boxes on my engine, don't want them to dent my transmission housing >.>

Where did you end up getting your engine from?

[Risu2112]

Where did you end up getting your engine from?

Came from a WS6 with about 60k miles that had just enough frame damage to not warrant repairing :)

[drftwerks]

how much if you dont mind me asking, you can pm if you want

[StaticX27]

WRONG. You can't *legally* pass smog in say, a '92 Civic Si hatch with a B16 in it, even if its a 100% stock motor from a '99 Si coupe, UNLESS IT IS BAR-APPROVED. ANYTIME you swap ANY motor than is not the OEM engine for that particular year, it needs to be ref-approved. Even KA-E to KA-DE swaps need BAR-approval to be legal.
Also, you can't swap any motor into any car... The engine has to come out of a car that is the same year or newer.

Get your facts straight before spreading false information, please.


Since when were a 92 civic and a 99 civic the same chassis?

Maybe you should read what I wrote a little more closely. If a 92 civic DX came with a D16 in it, and a 92 civic EX came with a B16 in it, you can legally put said B16 into your 92 civic DX.

[GSXRJJordan]

This was mentioned above, but I want to clear it up - with regard to the headers, the OEM ones do not have to be used, as they don't fit anything except F-bodys or Vettes.

But the configuration of all the emissions equipment has to be identical.

When I say emissions equipment, what that really means is the cats. That means no long-tube headers, no headers that make you re-route emissions plumbing, nothing. As long as you keep that in mind, you'll be A-OK with CARB.

[soreballz]

Since when were a 92 civic and a 99 civic the same chassis?

Maybe you should read what I wrote a little more closely. If a 92 civic DX came with a D16 in it, and a 92 civic EX came with a B16 in it, you can legally put said B16 into your 92 civic DX.
^^Are you retarded? When did I say that they were the same chassis?

Read this carefully: ANYTIME YOU SWAP A MOTOR INTO YOUR CAR THAT ISN'T THE OEM MOTOR FOR THAT EXACT YEAR AND TRIM LEVEL, THE SWAP NEEDS TO BE REF-APPROVED TO BE SMOG-LEGAL.

Now, I'm reading what you wrote a little more closely... And what you wrote is indeed, retarded. Firstly, the 92 Civic EX never came with a B16. In fact, no US model Civic had a B16 in it until the EM Si coupe came along.
Secondly, even if that Civic DID come with said B16, yes, you COULD swap that motor into the DX of which you speak, but it wouldn't be LEGAL without that BAR sticker.

Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that this little arguement is the simple result of your shitty reading comprehension skills, and thus, is a mere misunderstanding. With that said, I'm done here. Have a nice day.

[kingkilburn]

This was mentioned above, but I want to clear it up - with regard to the headers, the OEM ones do not have to be used, as they don't fit anything except F-bodys or Vettes.

But the configuration of all the emissions equipment has to be identical.

When I say emissions equipment, what that really means is the cats. That means no long-tube headers, no headers that make you re-route emissions plumbing, nothing. As long as you keep that in mind, you'll be A-OK with CARB.

Would that mean no 180 degree headers for a swapped V8?

[StaticX27]

Read this carefully: ANYTIME YOU SWAP A MOTOR INTO YOUR CAR THAT ISN'T THE OEM MOTOR FOR THAT EXACT YEAR AND TRIM LEVEL, THE SWAP NEEDS TO BE REF-APPROVED TO BE SMOG-LEGAL.
And that's where I consider you wrong. I can take my 7th gen Celica GT down to the dealership and drop in a 2ZZ motor and not even have to make a trip to the state ref, because of the first part of the law that you pointed out. It does not need to be ref approved.


Now, I'm reading what you wrote a little more closely... And what you wrote is indeed, retarded. Firstly, the 92 Civic EX never came with a B16. In fact, no US model Civic had a B16 in it until the EM Si coupe came along.
Secondly, even if that Civic DID come with said B16, yes, you COULD swap that motor into the DX of which you speak, but it wouldn't be LEGAL without that BAR sticker.

Sorry, my honda knowledge is limited, poor example.

Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that this little arguement is the simple result of your shitty reading comprehension skills, and thus, is a mere misunderstanding. With that said, I'm done here. Have a nice day.
Maybe, or maybe you're wrong. Since you seem to be that interested in it, lets see the vehicle code that supports your statement. Otherwise I'm just going to assume you're another jackass.

[silbeer]

Any updates?

I can do a carb legal lsx-240 swap if you need any work done. Custom (carb legal) headers, wiring, hp tuners ecu editing, etc.

Risu I would recommend at least talking to Luke @ SDP. I visited his shop regarding the same project a few months back. I left with a positive impression of him and his shop. When I was there they had an FC getting prepped for a CARB legal swap, although I haven't followed up on that.

I never followed through because another project drained my budget. I'm saving up so that I can do this swap as well, so I'm definitely interested in following your project.