carborators for a 240sx [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

DSC

10-03-2002, 10:55 PM

I've never seen a DOHC ka with these but here's a cool pic of a SOHC with individual throttle bodies.

http://www.steamymirror.com/dsc240sx/itbka24e.jpg

And to answer your question "why goto all the trouble when FI is superior" Answer is, Because FI is NOT superior in some peoples eye's....for others, it's just to be different or for the challenge. Building and tuning an automobile isn't always about raw power...or even money.

AceInHole

10-03-2002, 11:47 PM

why would carbs be better?? simple: tuning.  carbs are easier to tune than EFI (cheaper too, obviously).  In addition to that, no more clunky/ restrictive manifold, or intake piping.  you can run a virtually direct intake system like the one DSC shows, and with the individual throttle body setup you've got better engine response.

the other alternative to such a setup is a complete standalone system.  as we all know, that costs major $$$$.  

finally, NA power is "better" than turbo power. better response, better/ more predictable powerband, better sound... etc etc.

anyways, misnomer is right, AFAIK.  you'd either have to swap to an SOHC, or custom build a manifold.  thinking about it, i should have gone with a custom system and custom built a manifold with ITB's instead of turbo'ing (although I would have stayed with fuel injection... but i have a whole different theory waiting to be tested for handling fuel mapping).  oh well... too late for that for now.

allmotorKA

10-04-2002, 01:42 AM

Here is a picture from http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com of a KA24DE with carbs...

http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/pictures/ka24/ka24_005.jpg

Cool NA KA's are out there...

sleek240

10-04-2002, 02:06 PM

i have seen a dual side draft carbs on a single cam motor.. the intake was made by cannon and has 2 45mm ideco webber carburators.. so i dont know if there are any intakes for the dual cam motor,.. try top end performance give steve a call and ask him....www.racetep.com

AceInHole

10-04-2002, 02:19 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (allmotorKA @ Oct. 03 2002,03:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here is a picture from http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com of a KA24DE with carbs...

http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/pictures/ka24/ka24_005.jpg

Cool NA KA's are out there...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
maybe it's me but that looks so much nicer than a clunky turbo setup.

sleek240

10-04-2002, 02:23 PM

yeah ace looks so cool considering its in an old school 510..but i couldn't imagine the weight to power ratio on that car with the ka .. i bet thats some awsome solo x car..,

Loren

10-04-2002, 02:25 PM

I wasn't trying to be rude with my initial post.. Its true, if you have to ask that question your not ready for a carb. You know why? Because anyone who knows enough to switch EFI for a carb already knows that virtually any carburator made can be fitted onto a custom intake manifold for the KA. Thats not being rude, just trying to keep your head above water. BTW just because your parents buy you a 240, your better than me all of the sudden? I think not.

PS Real carburators.. not the electronically controlled ones, blah, blah, the ones that run off vacuum alone, They are easier to tune, for peak hp, but you can never get the peak hp throughout the powerband with a carb, like you can with EFI, thats why I said it was better for 240s to keep EFI, because they aren't drag cars, where they are only concerned with peak HP, while auto-xing drifting etc. your gonna want power from 2k to 5k, not just at redline.

Jim96SC2

10-04-2002, 02:33 PM

Someone beat me to it, but I was gonna say just grab some webbers! 4 webber side drafts (don't know size though), some metal, and a welder is all you need for your carb setup. I've seen it done on everything from little MGBs to saturn motors.

AceInHole

10-04-2002, 03:19 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 03 2002,4:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They are easier to tune, for peak hp, but you can never get the peak hp throughout the powerband with a carb, like you can with EFI, thats why I said it was better for 240s to keep EFI, because they aren't drag cars, where they are only concerned with peak HP, while auto-xing drifting etc. your gonna want power from 2k to 5k, not just at redline.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
And umm.... exactly how easily can you tune EFI?  It's not like carbs are only good for drag racing, and it's not like it's easy to run an ITB setup with horn intakes with EFI.

I'm sure he'd love to run a standalone EFI system, but some people don't have that much $$ and that much computer experience to tune one.

Loren

10-04-2002, 03:38 PM

Its not mad crazy to tune EFI, its a lot easier to tune EFI than to have to have a new wiring harness fabricated, and a new vacuum system derived. Also besides for a CUSTOM intake manifold, throttle linkage will have to be fabricated, its a ton of work, and in the end its not as efficient. Standalone, or products like AFC are cheaper and more efficient. DSC is right about people sometimes do stuff just to be different, but this guy doesn't strike me as being inept enough to do it.

AceInHole

10-04-2002, 03:50 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 03 2002,5:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its not mad crazy to tune EFI, its a lot easier to tune EFI than to have to have a new wiring harness fabricated, and a new vacuum system derived. Also besides for a CUSTOM intake manifold, throttle linkage will have to be fabricated, its a ton of work, and in the end its not as efficient. Standalone, or products like AFC are cheaper and more efficient. DSC is right about people sometimes do stuff just to be different, but this guy doesn't strike me as being inept enough to do it.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Running standalone would mean rewiring the harness.  Only thing to run carbs is a custom flange.  Vacuum runs right off a runner behind any of the TB's.  The beautiful thing is you don't need the plenum or the intake piping, and you don't need to mess with the harness.

You ARE right about carbs not being one of the most efficient routes.  Probably the biggest drawback is that they require constant tuning and attention.  I still don't think EFI is the only way to tune an engine, and carbs are NOT so outdated that they have no place in track or drag racing.

Loren

10-04-2002, 04:01 PM

Ace, your right and wrong in a sense. I like the idea of ITB.. but I thought the idea was more along the lines of sidedrafts or something. With sidedrafts you'd have substantial modifications to the vacuum system/harness. Yeah in standalone you need a newharness but someones giving you instructions on how to install that, with a carb setup you'd have to figure that out on your own. Now heres where I think your right and wrong, and where my admiration for the ITB comes into play. I think carbs have a place (possibly) in a full out race situation where you have a longblock, no fuel atomization at all, and you have to figure out what to do, sidedrafts would be neat and easier vs. EFI (easier I suppose). But to me, its dumb, and pointless for a newbie to want to swap out EFI in lieu of a carb on his stock S14.. Im gonna go out on a limb and say that hes probably never done anything more than changed oil in his life (tell me if Im wrong, because thats what I presume). Im not even going to question his capabablites, but its irrational for someone with no experience to want to switch to carbs, and that is why i said before if you have to ask, its not for you.

Tyler Durdan

10-04-2002, 04:39 PM

Throwing in my .02....why would you want to change your efi system over to a carb. system on a car that's your daily driver, and occassional track car on the weekends?  The efi system is superior to the carb. system for the guys doing simple bolt ons due to the fact you just have to reset the ecu to get the most gains out of a set of headers for example.  Plus, you don't have to mess with checking the carb. every week to make sure it's running peak condition.  Just my thoughts.

By the way...let's keep this topic on topic...it's a pretty interesting one and would suck if it got locked.

DSC

10-04-2002, 05:00 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tyler Durdan @ Oct. 03 2002,7:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Throwing in my .02....why would you want to change your efi system over to a carb. system on a car that's your daily driver, and occassional track car on the weekends? The efi system is superior to the carb. system for the guys doing simple bolt ons due to the fact you just have to reset the ecu to get the most gains out of a set of headers for example. Plus, you don't have to mess with checking the carb. every week to make sure it's running peak condition. Just my thoughts.

By the way...let's keep this topic on topic...it's a pretty interesting one and would suck if it got locked.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm pretty sure it take more than a simple ECU reset to get the most out of bolt-on's...otherwise JWT would be out of business.

AceInHole

10-04-2002, 10:05 PM

Original poster's sig:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">95 240sx Se..
soon to have an SR </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

He pretty much won't go carbs anyways.  My arguments are mostly aimed towards your comments that might lead people to believe EFI is the only solution for tuning.

this line:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">why goto all the trouble when FI is superior, especially in cars like 240s. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
seems to indicate that carbs have no place in a 240, when in reality most (if not all) of the high end NA setups on 240's do in fact use carbs.

as for arguments about the poster not being one to go with carbs?  are you sure he's not asking for someone else, or possibly thinking of an alternative route for the future?  it never hurts to ask, and it never hurts to give a good answer if none had been provided for before.

Tyler Durdan

10-05-2002, 01:11 AM

Ace....I understand that jwt can get the absolute most out of the little bolt ons by remapping the ecu.  But for most bolt ons (i.e. i/h/e, etc...) you can pretty much gain what your going to gain by just resetting the ecu, correct?  The efi system is a proven system, as is the carb. system.  But with a little more technical knowledge of a fuel injection system, is it not the stronger system?  What would be some of the advantages of running carb over fi?

On a side note, this is a damn good thread. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Loren

10-05-2002, 12:38 PM

Tyler EFI is superior. They are talking just to get the information out there.. I don't see Ace or DSC ever running anything but EFI, I might be wrong, but its what they're running now. I hate to burst your bubble, but we all drive 240s, because we don't have a ton of money, or else we'd be driving porchses/corvettes/etc. 90% of the people here only have one car (if they have one) and its their daily driver, so they can mod it a little bit, but it will never have pillowball suspension all around with a 14:1 compression NA monster. Carbs are inefficient and not practical for a daily driver... or less practical than EFI. Some hot rod guys love the old Offenhauser single barrel carbs, they'll run like 6 of them, yeah they lose hp, yeah they're harder to tune, but they just run them cause they're cool, this is why I think Ace and DSC are leaning towards carbs...

--DSC why are you removing my posts? They weren't threatening/lude/or even out of context. Its Un-American to deny me freedom of speech, and it makes baby jesus cry.

Loren

10-05-2002, 01:05 PM

your not religious, don't act like you are. you think you'll all cool defending god and what not, guess what? you know where i got "makes baby jesus cry" from? church, they said that to all the kids when we broke a rule, they'd tell us that it made baby jesus cry.

DSC, delete stil bil, and my post please, i love being censored.

--Keep in mind that message was directly aimed at DSC not anyone else. Also Stil Bil, it seems to me that you don't know enough to post in this thread, you haven't had anything to say until now, which was totally off topic condeming me, this thread has been around a couple days, nothing from you, until now when you get into other peoples business, your a winner.

misnomer

10-05-2002, 05:12 PM

Freedom of speech is the lamest excuse I've heard. It doesn't give you the right to say whatever you want whenever you want. If somebody doesn't like your post on THIER forum, deal with it. Also, some of us need to stop getting defensive when we're disagreed with. Yet another good information post lost to bickering. . .

Few people would dispute that EFI is a much more efficient means of fuel delivery, the main advantage of carbs though, is they can be easier to tune. Carbeurated vehicles don't need the complex electronic systems that fuel injected ones do. A lot of folks just don't want to mess with the electronics, for them a carb system is perfect. I don't think anybody will say that EFI is always goin to give you more power than carbs, it's all in how you tune it.

ca18guy

10-05-2002, 05:23 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hate to burst your bubble,but we all drive 240s</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Hate to burst your bubble but you don't own a 240. I haven't deleted any of your posts from this thread but I have done it in many others. If you have a problem with the way the site is moderated (or censored as you would like to believe) then go complain in the feedback forum or email WeST, don't ruin threads over it. Any response from you that does not pertain to the topic title will be deleted. Enough threads get locked or deleted cause of you, this thread will not be one of them.

DSC

10-05-2002, 07:17 PM

"DSC why are you removing my posts? They weren't threatening/lude/or even out of context. Its Un-American to deny me freedom of speech, and it makes baby jesus cry."

I am removing your posts because they WERE either threatening, lude, or out of context.

Un-American?  One thing you have to remember is zilvia.net is not America, nor is it a democracy.  Moderators will use their own descretion to remove the shit from this forum...myself included.

Loren

10-05-2002, 07:41 PM

Lets try to get this back on topic... where were we?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Carbeurated vehicles don't need the complex electronic systems that fuel injected ones do. A lot of folks just don't want to mess with the electronics, for them a carb system is perfect.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
let me start this off with the spelling of the item were all trying to talk about "carburetor". Yeah all that complex electronic stuff sucks, so lets rip out the entire FI systems, which is working fine, and throw in a carb, fabbed intake, fabbed vacuum system, fabbed harness, fabbed throttle linkage.. hmm thats all that comes to mind. 99 times out of 100 carbs are just a lot of work for little bennefit, and lots of loss. EFI rejets itself throughout the powerband... carbs have the same set of jets the whole way through.. carbs and EFI will both make virtually the same maxpower on the exact same engine. Most say that carbs will make slightly less maxpower... a few swear that it can make more... I think it comes down to the fact that EFI is tuned improperly, just using the stock ECU, instead of a standalone system.

I have a question, and I want a legitimate answer, give me a reason when you should use carbs, on a daily driven car, that is occasionally hot rodded, taken to the track whatever, when it has a EFI system that works perfectly fine. Im not trying to be a jerk, I just can't think of one, you guys seem to be pushing this so hard, but I don't get it, maybe Im dumb? Or maybe, its just become the popular thing to try and prove me wrong.

misnomer

10-05-2002, 11:53 PM

damn Loren, no need to get snippy. The main thing I was getting at with my post was it's more a matter of preference. Nobody can be proven right or wrong on a preference. I can provide two decent enough reason to go with carbs on a 240sx.
1) It's unique, there are only a handfull of them nationwide. A lot of people try something new (or old, in this case) just to see how well it works in a different application.
2) It provides a different method of tuning. I know a lot of people who simply don't want to deal with the electronics. Why bother learning electronic fuel maps if you know how to manage your fuel delivery through a cab system? A stock ECU isn't tuned just for performance as we all know, it's also set up for efficiency, emissions, and whatnot. Installing and testing a standalone system isn't the only way to get around this.

Anyhow, the original question said nothing of motive to use carbs. We don't know if it's for daily driving, for racing, drag, show, hobby. . . Doesn't really matter. It's a discussion, not just an answer to a question. I don't think anybody would just dump carbs into a car they primarily use as a dailly driver. Poor fuel economy, engine needs to warm up to work well, and it couldn't pass emissions. However, I think sombody already pointed out that carbs are popular in pure race 240s.

It's not that we're necesserily pushing carbs. You were simply too against them. I for one am not here to turn people away from interesting ideas. I personally would never carburate my s13. We are simply talking about options. The world becomes a boring place when everybody thinks the same way. Loren, although you sometimes have good information to share here, you have a terrible attitude for a public forum. This forum is for sharing knowlege, not berating people for considering something different (I say again).

Loren

10-06-2002, 02:10 AM

Ok, I just had a thought, about getting the cheapest s14 i could find.. somehwere around 4k, then taking the KA and putting high comp pistons in it, new rods, balanced crank (entier bottom end for that matter), porting the head, new valves and springs if needed (suppose they would) hot cam, and then the bolt ons, header, exhaust... what do you guys think the most power that could be made out of pump gas would be? also what kind of fuel atomization, webers, or ITBs? ITBs still use injectors... could someone please explain ITB a little more to me, I think I have a good grasp but I want to hear someone else say it. Ace please? What tells the injectors to drop the fuel? its not vacuum is it?

allmotorKA

10-06-2002, 03:36 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 05 2002,8:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...I have a question, and I want a legitimate answer, give me a reason when you should use carbs, on a daily driven car, that is occasionally hot rodded, taken to the track whatever, when it has a EFI system that works perfectly fine. Im not trying to be a jerk, I just can't think of one, you guys seem to be pushing this so hard, but I don't get it, maybe Im dumb? Or maybe, its just become the popular thing to try and prove me wrong.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Main reason to go carbs...awesome NA horsepower gains (more than ANY other NA bolt on performance part). Of course fuel injected ITB's will give similar horsepower gains but at the expense of an aftermarket ECU to control the fuel injectors...so you add another $1000 or more dollars on top of what it would have costed you to just use carbs. Besides, carbs are not that terrrible for daily driven cars....remember that before fuel injectors, all cars were daily driven with carbs.

allmotorKA

10-06-2002, 03:47 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 06 2002,03:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...ITBs still use injectors... could someone please explain ITB a little more to me, I think I have a good grasp but I want to hear someone else say it. Ace please? What tells the injectors to drop the fuel? its not vacuum is it?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You have to use an aftermarket ECU to control the fuel injectors...the stock ECU uses a MAF sensor and the ITBs use an MAP sensor. Look at the image (taken by Mike of clearcorners.com) of my engine posted by DSC earlier in this thread...there is no MAF sensor.

Loren

10-06-2002, 12:32 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (allmotorKA @ Oct. 06 2002,04:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Main reason to go carbs...awesome NA horsepower gains (more than ANY other NA bolt on performance part).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ok, hold on, haha, your trying to say you gain horsepower from using carbs over EFI?

AceInHole

10-06-2002, 02:38 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 05 2002,2:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (allmotorKA @ Oct. 06 2002,04:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Main reason to go carbs...awesome NA horsepower gains (more than ANY other NA bolt on performance part).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ok, hold on, haha, your trying to say you gain horsepower from using carbs over EFI?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
getting rid of the lengthy/ restrictive intake piping... possibly.

allmotorKA

10-07-2002, 12:08 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 06 2002,1:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, hold on, haha, your trying to say you gain horsepower from using carbs over EFI?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You asked a question and then laughed at the answer...so what was the point in asking your question in the first place.

AutoDestruct

10-07-2002, 12:11 PM

You guys are starting to lose your focus on the car and are getting personal.  There is no way to prove either side with out actual fact from doing all of this and trying each setup out.  Facts,   F a c t s.  Stop butting your heads together in some sort of sh*t fest and try and solve the problem.  If you have resources use them.

eca ni eht eloh 1     nerol 0    by the way.

Loren

10-07-2002, 01:10 PM

that code was tough to crack. your post was completely personal and had nothing to with cars.. so why are you even posting?

allmotorka - the point in laughing, because gaining horsepower from carbs is laughable, you lost power, because theres no way a carb can be as effecient as EFI. the answer i was looking for was somewhere along the lines of ease of use, etc. I don't know? because I really can't think of something. Carbs can rejet themselves like EFI.. thats been established.

sxtasy

10-07-2002, 01:38 PM

I hate to be nosey......... Oh wait! I love being nosey. But Loren, weren't  you going to go over to the f-body boards cuz yr papa was gonna buy you one of those fine, fine Firebirds or whatever? You should go over to mullets.com and talk to those guys about this subject, they LOVE carburators! Oh yea, and Kool cigarettes . <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'>

Loren

10-07-2002, 01:41 PM

yeah, just because im getting an f-body doesn't mean it has a carb, and it also doesn't mean that im leaving here. And how do you think Im as superfly as I am?<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?? It doesn't happen on accident, my momma smoked Kool cigarettes the entire time she was pregnant with me!

Tyler Durdan

10-07-2002, 04:47 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sxtasy @ Oct. 06 2002,3:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hate to be nosey......... Oh wait! I love being nosey. But Loren, weren't you going to go over to the f-body boards cuz yr papa was gonna buy you one of those fine, fine Firebirds or whatever? You should go over to mullets.com and talk to those guys about this subject, they LOVE carburators! Oh yea, and Kool cigarettes . <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Just because he's getting an f-body doesn't mean he has to leave zilvia.  This board is for 240 owners and fans of the 240.  If it was for 240 owners only, shouldn't we have to submit our vin #.  I would much rather chat with loren (who has knowledge about cars, then read this bs post.

Back to the carb talk...how much more difficult would it be to tune a carb as you add performance mods vs. tuning the ecu on an efi system?

Loren

10-07-2002, 05:08 PM

with the carb you can play around with jets to get the optimum flow, the stock ecu will try to learn and re-adjust, Im not familar with standalones, but i believe you can hack away at most of them with a laptop. I don't even know how you tune with afc, believe you plug into them too.. i don't know any of this for sure, as i have limited experience with carbs (watching my dad do it), and no experience with standalone, admittedly im a little fuzzy on this one, anyone care to correct me, add on?

Phlip

01-08-2003, 08:06 AM

I hate to drag an old topic out of the closet like this, but does anyone know who I could run down about this carb setup for the KA24DE? I have an extra engine that I will have extra time and money to screw with, and I'm starting to gather ideas...

Steeles

01-08-2003, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by PHLIP
I hate to drag an old topic out of the closet like this, but does anyone know who I could run down about this carb setup for the KA24DE? I have an extra engine that I will have extra time and money to screw with, and I'm starting to gather ideas...

awwww phil came out of the closet! screw the carbs go turbo! you know you want too :cool: