Equal Length Intake Manifold

[luke91]

Why has no one ever designed an intake manifold with equal length, tubular runners and no plenum?  

Picture a tubular, stainless turbo manifold.  Replace the flange for the turbo with a throttle body, and you're getting close.  Now, find a place for the fuel rain and injectors, a few vacuum lines, and bolt it to the intake side of the head(s), and there you are!!

Of course it would look slightly different, but you get the picture.  

Get it?  

Let's have some opinions...

--luke

[Red]

Its hard to picture.... Can you draw a pic? and post it or something?

[luke91]

fuel rail, not fuel rain, sorry.
--luke <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[Jeff240sx]

Our cars are torquey because we have intake runners that V8 guys dream of. &nbsp;Mustangs, and Chevy 350's have long runners too. &nbsp;They are great for low end and mid-range torque.
Honda people have short, equal length runners, which only allow for fast expulsion of gasses when they rev to 8000 rpms. &nbsp;They also make 240hp and 130 ft/lbs torque. &nbsp;We don't rev that high, and need torque. &nbsp;Our runners are a great design for a stroked engine. &nbsp;Like our KA.
-Jeff

[Kreator]

Actually i know a number of v8 guys and most of them told me that my intake runners are way too long <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

[LanceS13]

I don't know the physics behind it, so I won't attempt to explain this...but you should have a plenum that is 50-70% of engine displacement. &nbsp;I wish I had a book that explained stuff like this.

[flipboi13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Sep. 30 2002,11:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually i know a number of v8 guys and most of them told me that my intake runners are way too long <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Tell those v8 guys to kiss the KAs ass

[GrindingHalt]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LanceS13 @ Oct. 01 2002,01:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know the physics behind it, so I won't attempt to explain this...but you should have a plenum that is 50-70% of engine displacement. I wish I had a book that explained stuff like this.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Not sure if the book comment was sarcasm or not...lol. But Ill reply for benefit of other readers...

Maximum Boost! by Corky Bell. 34.99 at Barnes and Noble....Very worth it

You're Absolutely correct about the plenum volume. It should be a "function of engine displacement-in general, 50-70%." Dont think there are ANY aftermarket intakes out there for the KA, much less an equal length runner one. But be on the lookout in the future, the 240 rice movement is on the rise. Maybe we're in for an explosion of aftermarket for the KA.... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[LanceS13]

Yeah, I got that book and it must be where I read that. &nbsp;The problem is, being an entry level turbo book, he doesn't explain why the plenum needs to be that size...it just does.

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (flipboi13 @ Oct. 01 2002,03:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Sep. 30 2002,11:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually i know a number of v8 guys and most of them told me that my intake runners are way too long <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Tell those v8 guys to kiss the KAs ass</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Uhhh, well i'd say my 240 would be kissing (or at least seeing) their asses for a while even after i get my turbo.... the slowest of em runs like low 13s.... But they kinda respect the KA more compared to SR <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[flipboi13]

Hehe, yeah I was just joking.

And yeah, the KA rules! &nbsp;(So does the SR)

[misnomer]

I dunno if you're gonna see a big explosion in KA aftermarket. . . After all, all the new folks coming on only talk about the SR. Of the kids wanting to build a Silvia, how many of them do you think know the engine that's already in there?

[flipboi13]

OT: I hate car-enthusiast wannabes....
"I'll just take my car to the shop and have them do all the work, then i can have a fast car and still not know whats the difference between a cylinder block and head. &nbsp;hyuck! hyuck!"

[GrindingHalt]

True..True...You're prolly right about the SR. &nbsp;But hopefully yer wrong! &nbsp;I intend to stay with the KA to the end

[luke91]

I have an SR20 swap.

I did all the work on my car myself. &nbsp;

I know all about the KA24, and seriously considered keeping it. &nbsp;It's a great engine, but its not that great. &nbsp;The main reason I chose the SR20 is this: &nbsp;Its faster in street trim. &nbsp;Its faster on stock internals, and is stronger with its fatory parts. &nbsp;

The things you guys are telling yourselves about the KA24DE, are the same things Grand-Am and Cavalier owners have been telling each other about the Quad-Four for years. &nbsp;And guess what? &nbsp;They're almost the same engine! &nbsp;Both are torquey and strong, with relatevly large displacement. &nbsp;Both produce almost the same numbers. &nbsp;Both have been around for years, and both have small aftermarket involvement. &nbsp;I wish there were more aftermarket parts available for the KA, but there aren't. &nbsp;

There are so many aftermarket parts available for the SR20, its sickening. &nbsp;The swap is easy. &nbsp;The engine makes far more power and torque with bolt on parts than the KA, and can hold greater boost. &nbsp;Why not do the swap? &nbsp;

Making the KA fast is different and respectable, but it's just not practical.
The KA has the potential to make a lot of power, but the vast majority of us aren't ever going to spend the money to do this anyway. &nbsp;The SR is just easier, and there's nothing wrong with that.

For all those infamous "V8 Guys"...
I've seen SR20 powered 240's run low 12's in the quarter with a stock T25 turbo and stock internals. &nbsp;
I've seen built SR20's go low 11's in real life, and low 9's on video. &nbsp;
A friend of mine has a 91 240sx with the SR20 swap, and a T3/T04E turbo. &nbsp;He drives it daily, everywhere he goes, and runs high 11's in the quarter. &nbsp;Full interior, too. &nbsp;

All this from a 122 cubic inch, four cylinder. &nbsp;

Pretty impressive, but none of our cars, powered by any 4 cylinder engine, will ever be as fast as some of the "V-8 Guys". &nbsp;We'll get close, but never beat them. &nbsp;It won't happen, so let it go. &nbsp;

Anyway

About the intake manifold... &nbsp;Does anyone know why the plenum size should be a function of engine displacement? &nbsp;I don't. &nbsp;Does there even have to be a Plenum? &nbsp;Why not change the size of the runners, keeping them all equal length, and eliminate the plenum all together? &nbsp;I honestly think it would work. &nbsp;I think the whole principle of plenum and intake size is bull. &nbsp;Obviously, you can't have an intake that is too big, or too small, but how can the size of the plenum itself make the difference? &nbsp;I need enlightenment. &nbsp;

Is that book really worth $35.00? &nbsp;If so, I'll buy it. &nbsp;I just want a review, if anyone has read it... &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sigh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':rolleyes:'>

--luke

[LanceS13]

The book is a great introductory to turbocharging for the average joe. &nbsp;However, if you're a technogeek like me, you may be left wondering "why?" when Mr. Bell says something like "don't worry about this...it's just the way it is."--much like the plenum size thing. &nbsp;If anybody knows of a more in-dept book on the physics and dynamics of the combustion engine, including chapters on forced induction, let me know.

[flipboi13]

Personally, I have an attachment to the KA, the SR is a great engine, but KA has more potential than you believe. Just b/c there isn't an aftermarket for it doesn't mean it can't be as good as the SR. But please don't go ripping on my baby, some people aren't in it for the convenience. &nbsp;Ask anyone who is turboing their KA, they know what they have to do, and how much work is involved, its not like anyone is jumping into things here &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'>

[luke91]

I like the KA, don't get me wrong. &nbsp;I just like the SR20 better. &nbsp;If you want to build a super fast KA, and you have the money to do it - cool!! &nbsp;I think that is badass. &nbsp;

The SR is just more practical, IMO. &nbsp;

In reality, I was really close to spending the extra money to build the KA, but I couldn't find an aftermarket crank. &nbsp;Anyway...

The plenum-less, equal length pipe intake manifold WILL work. &nbsp;I think... &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[SSJ2Gohan]

Im going the KA route also. &nbsp;Im trying my hardest to learn a bunch about this engine and plan a full overhaul with stronger internals. &nbsp;Its personal now. &nbsp;The SR just isnt for me. &nbsp;I dont know why so many people run to the shop and have them do all the work. &nbsp;I quite enjoy figuring it out myself. &nbsp;Much more rewarding. &nbsp;I have never pulled an engine before but I plan on doing mine. &nbsp;Provided I plan everything out I should be ok.

Now machine work, if needed, will definately be done by the shop!

[240racer]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I did all the work on my car myself. &nbsp;

I know all about the KA24, and seriously considered keeping it. &nbsp;It's a great engine, but its not that great. &nbsp;The main reason I chose the SR20 is this: &nbsp;Its faster in street trim. &nbsp;Its faster on stock internals, and is stronger with its fatory parts. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I should quote the whole comment, it's that good, but just know that I am responding to the whole thing.

I think this is the first good arguement I have heard in the whole sr-ka thing. &nbsp;You said why you chose the engine and you didn't do it ignorantly. &nbsp;Your reasons were sound.

the great advantage of the SR is that it makes more power stock, which is good, because then it is reliable and whatever. &nbsp;Plus most people don't modify engines anyway.
I would like to question the faster on stock internals though, as well as the stronger stock internals. &nbsp;I think they are really close, either engine needs new pistons at 300hp or so.

However, the KA has more displacement and it is easier to make more power with more displacement. &nbsp;Also the KA has a iron block, which is going to be stronger. &nbsp;The pontiac quad four is up against a 3.0v6 how can it win? &nbsp;the 2.0sr is up against a 2.4ka, very close.
Also, who cares about aftermarket parts, custom pistons are easy to order and the turbos are all the same anyway. &nbsp;The Ttoosmall &nbsp;that comes stock is a waste of money if you want to make more power.

As far as the low end torque arguement goes, if any of you are driving fast at less then 4000rpm, let me be the first to tell you that you aren't driving fast. &nbsp;Torque below half of redline is useless. &nbsp;My KA has a significant torque rise or bump at 4000rpm with and without the turbo. &nbsp;I think that is where it should be and I doubt the sr is different. &nbsp;If the torque keeps increasing all the way to redline, then that's almost as useless since you spend so few seconds actaully at redline.

you asked about the volume of the plenum. &nbsp;It is much more important for NA applications. &nbsp;There is a tuning affect that you get from certain length runners and plenum volume. &nbsp;This is due to the resonances in the intake, small volume = higher resonance. &nbsp;the resonance is what creates the scavanging affects that tune an engine. &nbsp;also, small plenum=quicker throttle response and larger plenum usually means more power, especially at lower engine accelerations (higher gears)
for a turbo application a very small plenum would work well, but the shape and the flow is more important in this case then the volume. &nbsp;For the NA guys, you want a tuned plenum and runners, and you are best off keeping it stock, unless you have a lot of dyno time to waste getting a few hp out of a NA ka. &nbsp;There is a computer program called Wave made by Ricardo (competitor of bosch and delphi) that you can run engines in with a model. &nbsp;Here you can select different parameters (plenum volume, intake length, cams, exhaust stuff, etc.) and run the model and see what the output (torque) looks like. &nbsp;I have watched it being used, it is very complex and also very expensive, like $200,000 for the software. &nbsp;this is the type of program that nissan and everybody else in the world (unless they hire ricardo to do it for them, which lots of companies do) uses to tune their engines before they are built.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Quote (Kreator @ Sep. 30 2002,11:31)
Actually i know a number of v8 guys and most of them told me that my intake runners are way too long &nbsp;

Tell those v8 guys to kiss the KAs ass</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

the guy that ran Wave is a V8 guy and he said my runners were too long too, and he knows what he is talking about. &nbsp;He has a nova with a built small block and I am faster then him :-) &nbsp;

anyway, sorry for the long post, it just looked like there was a need for some information. &nbsp;hope it helped some. &nbsp;

luke91 I'd like to talk more about the sr, can I email you?

[luke91]

Anyone can e-mail me, whenever they like...

[email protected]

As far as 240racer...

I liked your post, but I need to point out that SR20's have put out over 400whp on stock internals. &nbsp;How long the engine stays together at that power level remains to be seen, though.

--luke

[Kreator]

Dunnow luke. There are a bunch of things i can disagree with you on. But i'll state 2 things that i really think on this topic and why i don't want sr.

1. You are swapping in a smaller engine. Like you know, there is no replacement for displacement. What does that mean? That means that if you put both ka and sr to their highest possible performance, ka will still be beating sr with all things being the same. Cuz it's .4L bigger

2. To me lately the sr vs ka got down to this: sr is equivalent to getting a civic, ka is equivalent to getting something more rare. and that doesn't mean that sr sux. It's just that i never get excited about it when i hear about a new sr in town. I already have seen like 5 of em around. And only 1 kat once...

so getting kat with a custom intake manifold and all the other custom goodies that sr has in market is more challenging and thus much more interresting to me.

[luke91]

Kreator:

I see your point. &nbsp;A turbo KA is a rare thing. &nbsp;They're cool, too, if done properly. &nbsp;I'll agree with you there. &nbsp;But you have to realize, there are reasons why they're so rare. &nbsp;

"if you put both ka and sr to their highest possible performance, ka will still be beating sr with all things being the same. Cuz it's .4L bigger" --Kreator

This would be true if all things were the same, but they aren't. &nbsp;
The SR can put out over 400whp on stock internals. &nbsp;
The KA can't, and you'd have to spent far more money to make it do that. &nbsp;And once you have, you don't have as streetable an engine as an SR producing the same numbers. &nbsp;

Building an SR is also less expensive, considering the number of already-made parts available for it, whereas with the KA, many of the same parts need to be custom made. &nbsp;Custom parts are expensive. &nbsp;
Example: &nbsp;where do you find a stroker crank for a KA?

Also, the two engines are different internally. &nbsp;
The Sr was designed for forced induction. &nbsp;The cylinder sleeves, water passages, and other smaller details are different in the two engines. &nbsp;Then you have the infamous "piston-cooling oil squirters" in the SR20 that don't exist in the KA. &nbsp;I realize these differences are small, and not entirely necessary, but they help make the Sr more streetable. &nbsp;

One last point:
Neither one of us will probably ever have fully-build race engines. &nbsp;Once we get to the point where that .4L displacement difference really matters, we'll be more concerned with things like traction, so it really won't matter. &nbsp;Besides, If I'm correct, there exists a number of fully biult SR's that displace 2.2-2.5L. &nbsp;

I'm not trying to discourage anyone that wants to build a KA-T, I'm just saying the SR is a more practical route. &nbsp;A fully built KA may produce more power that a fully built SR, but it really doesn't matter. &nbsp;A 400hp SR-powered 240sx street car will probably beat a 600hp KA-powered 240sx street car, anyway, due to traction, so it really doesn't matter. &nbsp;

I swapped in the SR because I wanted a reliably fast street car that didn't break everyday. &nbsp;

--luke

[autobahNESSA]

Well back on topic, &nbsp;why is it 50-70%? &nbsp;when they put the individual throtle bodies on the ka24e, they're a lot shorter than the 50-70%. &nbsp;Isnt the ka24e intake shorter than the doch too? &nbsp;I know carburation is a lot different than fuel injection, but doesnt same principles still apply?

[LanceS13]

I hope this doesn't come across as defensive or anything...but I'd like to point out some flaws in your argument.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This would be true if all things were the same, but they aren't. &nbsp;
The SR can put out over 400whp on stock internals. &nbsp;
The KA can't, and you'd have to spent far more money to make it do that. &nbsp;And once you have, you don't have as streetable an engine as an SR producing the same numbers.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
How do you figure? &nbsp;
I wouldn't run a SR at 400hp w/o rebuilding and expect it to last. &nbsp;You don't know what that engine was put through in Japan. &nbsp;When you do rebuild, you're rebuilding a $2K engine instead of a $400 one...assuming you have to buy a KA. &nbsp;You'll have to buy new stuff like bigger turbo, fuel pump, injectors, engine management, etc., etc. to get the SR up there anyway. &nbsp;In the end you'll end up spending as much or more for the SR. &nbsp;And what if something breaks?...you may be garaged for two months while waiting on something from Japan to be sent to you. &nbsp;And more streetable? &nbsp;How so? &nbsp;The KA should have more low-end street-use torque available being the less peaky engine of the two.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Building an SR is also less expensive, considering the number of already-made parts available for it, whereas with the KA, many of the same parts need to be custom made. &nbsp;Custom parts are expensive. &nbsp;
Example: &nbsp;where do you find a stroker crank for a KA?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
See above. &nbsp;Most parts needed are mass produced for the KA, are generic, or can be made fairly cheap...manifolds, turbos, and downpipe respectively for example. Custom stuff is for people who are picky and like to make more power from the little things...like custom manifolds and headwork. &nbsp;
And you don't stroke KA's. &nbsp;They're strokers to begin with.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, the two engines are different internally. &nbsp;
The Sr was designed for forced induction. &nbsp;The cylinder sleeves, water passages, and other smaller details are different in the two engines. &nbsp;Then you have the infamous "piston-cooling oil squirters" in the SR20 that don't exist in the KA. &nbsp;I realize these differences are small, and not entirely necessary, but they help make the Sr more streetable. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
wrong again...the KA does have oil squirters. &nbsp;Not sure about the differences in the sleeves and water passages, but I doubt they're so big as to disqualify the KA from being streetable.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I'm not trying to discourage anyone that wants to build a KA-T, I'm just saying the SR is a more practical route. &nbsp;A fully built KA may produce more power that a fully built SR, but it really doesn't matter. &nbsp;A 400hp SR-powered 240sx street car will probably beat a 600hp KA-powered 240sx street car, anyway, due to traction, so it really doesn't matter. &nbsp;</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
That's what a good driver and slicks are for. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I swapped in the SR because I wanted a reliably fast street car that didn't break everyday. &nbsp;</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
That's about as ignorant as saying all domestics have horrible reliability.

[Kreator]

whatever lance said
How can sr be more streetable if it's not legal in the first place?

Well since we aren't building race engines, we are talking about something of up to 300 hp. Yeah, sr can handle 400whp. Well, ka was tested at 350hp with stock internals. Wonna know the truth? In real life, KA's aren't daily driven at more than 10psi and sr aren't daily driven at more than 20psi. at that point KA is putting out 270hp and sr about 300 (im guessing). Yeah, 30 hp. Big deal.

Anyways. The argument is gay and pointless. We aren't gonna prove anything to each other. Both are great engines. It's just that saying that sr is more practical and better is ignorant.

[Jeff240sx]

<!--QuoteBegin--luke91+Oct. 03 2002,4<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luke91 @ Oct. 03 2002,4<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All following quotes were taken from Luke.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ahh, Luke. My favorite newb. You should really think before you a) Take a topic based on an idea and turn it into a ka vs. sr argument. And b) Think before you type, and stop spilling your biased bullshit all over the post.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The SR can put out over 400whp on stock internals.
The KA can't, and you'd have to spent far more money to make it do that. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You will spend $3k on a turbo, installed for a KA, or $3k for an SR swap. We won't debate that. But then the "far more money" part. Ahh, yes. A t25 turbo will power your sr to 400hp? Or do you have to buy a new one? At $1000? Because I'm sure pistons and rods for a KA cost $1000. So now you have a SR with a big turbo, and a forged KA with a big turbo. For the same cash. Then stock injectors for an SR crap out at 265 mathematically, so you need a fuel system. Same with a KA. Same ammount for the 2 systems, as the injectors and all are completely interchangable. Same turbo, same fuel system, but the KA has forged internals for the same price, and can handle more power, solely from the internals, for the exact same price. &nbsp;But the SR won't have internals. &nbsp;How is a KA more expensive?</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Building an SR is also less expensive, considering the number of already-made parts available for it, whereas with the KA, many of the same parts need to be custom made. Custom parts are expensive.
Example: where do you find a stroker crank for a KA?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
What do KA's need, that SR motors have available? A stroker kit? Isn't a 96mm stroke enough? Intake plenum? Port and polish. What? Tell me!
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then you have the infamous "piston-cooling oil squirters" in the SR20 that don't exist in the KA. I realize these differences are small, and not entirely necessary, but they help make the Sr more streetable. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Have you ever taken apart a KA motor? Then shut up! You are once again spreading misinformation. They are there. I have the pictures of them, from my turbo install. The pics are on a CD, in the mail from Rampid360. If anyone wants proof, wait till the CD comes in.
Also, since you probably didn't see any other race-inspired parts, check out our crank girdles, and look at the sheer power KA cranks have by design.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we'll be more concerned with things like traction, so it really won't matter.... A 400hp SR-powered 240sx street car will probably beat a 600hp KA-powered 240sx street car, anyway, due to traction, so it really doesn't matter. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Where in the hell did you come up with this crap? Take 2 equal power engines, 400hp/400tq, both will have an evenly hard time launching. Is there some magical thing that an SR motor does to prevent the transfer of power to the wheels, or does it magically increase the coefficient of static friction in the tires themselves? What is the difference in traction that the motor makes? And don't say torque. There is a guy in Atlanta who makes 438hp/430tq in a KA, his car was in SCC, anyway... then there is Greaser on FA, who makes just about the same numbers with an SR.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Besides, If I'm correct, there exists a number of fully biult SR's that displace 2.2-2.5L. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes. They exist, but why? The SR is a square bore=stroke motor, and is extremely rev happy. Let me know how that 2.5L SR motor revs, will ya?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I swapped in the SR because I wanted a reliably fast street car that didn't break everyday.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
As opposed to what? I've had my KA for 40k miles. I have had my KA-T for 10k miles. And I know exactly how meticulously maintained my off-lease car was before I got it. I also have records of the mainenance, performed by the dealer. How did the drifters in Japan take car of your engine?

I don't like getting into KA vs. SR battles... but when someone tries to justify their investment by belittling the other option, it is exactly like crying that the grapes are sour because you can't get any. "Well, I didn't want that anyway..." I also cannot stand misinformation. Which you seem to be full of.
Anyway... good luck with your life.
-Jeff

[luke91]

LanceS13:

This is a quote from one of my replies to this thread:

"...SR20's have put out over 400whp on stock internals. How long the engine stays together at that power level remains to be seen..."

Obviously, I have my doubts to how well an SR will hold up 400whp. &nbsp;Still, the potential is there, and I'm convinced that an SR producing 300-350whp on stock internals will hold up quite well. &nbsp;Maybe 400whp will hold-up, too; my car isn't that powerful yet, so I don't know for sure. &nbsp;
Regardless, 300-350whp is impossible on a stock-internal KA24. &nbsp;

Lance, I bought my SR20 for $2300. The total bill for aftermarket parts on the engine is about $2000. &nbsp;and I'm guessing it puts out damn close to 300whp. &nbsp;Are you really telling me that all the necessary parts to build a 300whp KA-T is only $4300? &nbsp;Keep in mind you need: pistons, rods, block work, fuel injectors, rail, mafs, ECU reprogramming, pump, turbo, manifold, clutch, boost controller, intercooler&piping, downpipe&exhaust, and probably more. &nbsp;

"where do you find a stroker crank for a KA?"--me.

I'll rephrase:

Where do you find an aftermarket crank for a KA?
If I'm right, I believe the stock KA crank is far weaker than the SR's, and can only hold up to 350whp. &nbsp;I might be wrong. &nbsp;

I guess I was wrong about the oil squirters. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sigh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':rolleyes:'>
Please accept my apologies.

Street cars generally do not use slicks.

My last comment wasn't a stab at the KA, what I meant was that the KA won't support the power levels without breaking like the SR will. &nbsp;Stock internals, of course. &nbsp;
Sure, you can rebuild the internals, but that what I am trying to avoid. &nbsp;That was my point, sorry.

Kreator:
"sr aren't daily driven at more than 20psi. at that point KA is putting out 270hp and sr about 300"

You're wrong. &nbsp;SR's are daily driven at more than 20psi boost. &nbsp;Still, it makes no difference. &nbsp;BOOST ISN'T A RATING OF POWER. &nbsp;20psi boost on a t25/t28 is nothing like 20psi on a T88. &nbsp;

20psi on a re-worked T25/T28 is more than 300whp. &nbsp;

Jeff240sx, you're next. &nbsp;I need to catch my breath...

[luke91]

Jeff240sx. &nbsp;I'm flattered that I'm "your favorite newb". &nbsp;

I really don't like you at all. &nbsp;

You're still sour about that whole catch can thing, aren't you?

Anyway...
flipboi13, GrindingHalt, misnomer, and yourself started the SR vs. KA debate way before I added to it. &nbsp;

Refer to my last post to see how building the SR is cheaper.

"What do KA's need, that SR motors have available?"--you

A strong crank. &nbsp;There, I told you. &nbsp;

I was wrong about the oil squirters, I ADMIT IT. &nbsp;KA's have weak cranks. &nbsp;I know of a few people that have had cranks fail, and that's locally. &nbsp;

"Let me know how that 2.5L SR motor revs, will ya?" --you

If you build it right, it will rev as good, if not better than ever. &nbsp;Secret: deckplate and longer rod. &nbsp;Longer rod ratio=better rev potential. &nbsp;Again, I have never, nor ever will build a 2.5L SR, so this is pointless. &nbsp;It was stupid of me to bring it up. &nbsp;

"And I know exactly how meticulously maintained my off-lease car was before I got it." &nbsp;--you

So you think. &nbsp;

"How did the drifters in Japan take car of your engine?" --you

I dissassembled almost the whole engine before I did the swap, and everything is in very, very good shape. &nbsp;The cam lobes have almost no wear, and all bearings seem good. &nbsp;

I AM NOT BELITTLING ANYONE'S ENGINE. &nbsp;READ THE ENTIRE THREAD, AND YOU'LL SEE THAT. &nbsp;ANY IDIOT CAN SEE THAT.

You are an ASS!

"I also cannot stand misinformation. Which you seem to be full of" &nbsp;--you

OK, Mr. catch can. &nbsp;

You are a cocky bastard who thinks he's better than anyone else. &nbsp;It's evident in your posts and replies. &nbsp;I'm your favorite newb? &nbsp;You think that because you have more posts than me on a messageboard, you're all-knowing and better than me? &nbsp;You're a fucking messageboard mechanic!!! &nbsp;Good luck with my life? &nbsp;Where do you live? &nbsp;

--luke

[Jeff240sx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luke91 @ Oct. 04 2002,12:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From Luke again.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm next? &nbsp;HA!
Anyway...
Lets pick this post apart too. &nbsp;
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm convinced that an SR producing 300-350whp on stock internals will hold up quite well.
Regardless, 300-350whp is impossible on a stock-internal KA24. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Well, I'm convinced that 300-350rwhp will hold up on a stock internal KA, too. &nbsp;Because T.Y. Yap, for 3 years, has been running 15psi, making 319rwhp. &nbsp;Also, someone else on FA has hit 358rwhp in a dyno pull, at 15psi, with stock internals. &nbsp;He drives daily at 12 psi, and 320some hp. &nbsp;Impossible THIS!
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lance, I bought my SR20 for $2300. The total bill for aftermarket parts on the engine is about $2000. &nbsp;and I'm guessing it puts out damn close to 300whp. &nbsp;Are you really telling me that all the necessary parts to build a 300whp KA-T is only $4300?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes. &nbsp;I will really tell you that all the necessary parts to build a 300rwhp KA-T will only cost $4300. &nbsp;I have $2700 into it, and would have $1600 left. &nbsp;damn, I can nearly make a 400hp KA. &nbsp;I'd spend $900 on fuel, and have a lot of headwork and pistons done for the other $700. &nbsp;Push it to 17psi...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> &nbsp;Keep in mind you need: pistons, rods, block work, fuel injectors, rail, mafs, ECU reprogramming, pump, turbo, manifold, clutch, boost controller, intercooler&piping, downpipe&exhaust, and probably more. &nbsp;</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
What block work? &nbsp;What clutch? &nbsp;What fuel rail? &nbsp;Why do I need pistons and rods? &nbsp;Why do I need these for only 300hp? &nbsp;What the hell are you talking about? &nbsp;See above. &nbsp;The KA isn't a weak engine.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll rephrase:

Where do you find an aftermarket crank for a KA?
If I'm right, I believe the stock KA crank is far weaker than the SR's, and can only hold up to 350whp. &nbsp;I might be wrong.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yup. &nbsp;You're wrong. &nbsp;The stock KA crank is pretty badass, and that guy in Atlanta got his shotpeened and micropolished. &nbsp;But from factory, Don Nimi at PDM and JWT both claim that the KA crank is rated to 450hp. &nbsp;Shit, Duy was running the stock crank. &nbsp;Thinking is Power, kid.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Street cars generally do not use slicks. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Street cars generally don't have 600hp like in the example you gave.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what I meant was that the KA won't support the power levels without breaking like the SR will. &nbsp;Stock internals, of course.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Haven't I given sufficient examples to prove this is false?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">20psi on a re-worked T25/T28 is more than 300whp. &nbsp;</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Umm... ok. &nbsp;How much reworking? &nbsp;What is the efficiency on that turbo at that boost?
But on the bright side, you are correct about this:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You're wrong. &nbsp;SR's are daily driven at more than 20psi boost. &nbsp;Still, it makes no difference. &nbsp;BOOST ISN'T A RATING OF POWER. &nbsp;20psi boost on a t25/t28 is nothing like 20psi on a T88.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Most people don't clue in on that. &nbsp;Thank you.
-Jeff

[Jeff240sx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luke91 @ Oct. 04 2002,12:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From Luke</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ok... here we go again. &nbsp;You really should listen to what I have to say, because I do not speak of things that I don't know about.
But anyway...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jeff240sx. &nbsp;I'm flattered that I'm "your favorite newb". </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Cool. &nbsp;Congrats.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A strong crank. &nbsp;There, I told you... &nbsp;KA's have weak cranks. &nbsp;I know of a few people that have had cranks fail, and that's locally.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Wow. &nbsp;They did something wrong then. &nbsp;I already mentioned that some of the best Nissan tuners in America have rated the stock crank to 450hp, and that THE FASTEST 240sx in America was running 10.41 on the stock crank. &nbsp;And ask BoostedS14 if his 24psi broke his crank. &nbsp;
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, I have never, nor ever will build a 2.5L SR, so this is pointless. &nbsp;It was stupid of me to bring it up.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
At least you realize that.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"And I know exactly how meticulously maintained my off-lease car was before I got it." &nbsp;--you
So you think.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yea. &nbsp;That and I tore apart my engine during my turbo install, and the fact that Nissan mechanics have signed detailed maintence records. &nbsp;Synthetic all it's life.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"How did the drifters in Japan take car of your engine?" --you

I dissassembled almost the whole engine before I did the swap, and everything is in very, very good shape. &nbsp;The cam lobes have almost no wear, and all bearings seem good.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I am extremely happy for you, because many aren't so lucky.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are an ASS!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah. &nbsp;Get to know me better.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I also cannot stand misinformation. &nbsp;Which you seem to be full of" &nbsp;--you

OK, Mr. catch can.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I am pretty sure that everyone else, including "beef", confirmed what it did. &nbsp;Catch oil. &nbsp;I didn't go into detail because I had no clue you were turbocharged. &nbsp;Otherwise, I would have been more specific. &nbsp;I also thought that you were a newb that talked alot. &nbsp;Now that I know you have an SR, I have more respect for you. &nbsp;Some is lost in this thread, and the "where do you live" comment... but still... you're boosted, and I respect all that.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are a cocky bastard who thinks he's better than anyone else. &nbsp;It's evident in your posts and replies. &nbsp;I'm your favorite newb? &nbsp;You think that because you have more posts than me on a messageboard, you're all-knowing and better than me? &nbsp;You're a fucking messageboard mechanic!!! &nbsp;Good luck with my life? &nbsp;Where do you live?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Is it possible that I think that I am all knowing because I only reply in topics of things that I REALLY know? &nbsp;I basically only reply to turbo KA and engine help threads. &nbsp;I have never posted in suspension, or SR threads... because I won't give misinformation. &nbsp;If I do... it is prefaced with "I think" or "Possibly". &nbsp;
Man. &nbsp;Just don't get bent out of shape on things, and stop flaming.
-Jeff

[luke91]

You're forgetting this:

I started out talking about streetability. &nbsp;

Are those 300+whp KA-T's you spoke of driven everyday? &nbsp;How many miles have been put on them since they've been turbo'd? &nbsp;Anyone can claim having a daily driver, so this doesn't matter, either. &nbsp;As for reliability, how long will those stay together?

Also, are they COMPLETELY stock? &nbsp;Headgasket and all?

You're not building your bottom end, and not replacing your clutch, and you plan to have an honest daily driver? &nbsp;
Good luck with your car.

"treet cars generally don't have 600hp like in the example you gave"

That's the point, razor. &nbsp;I was talking about street cars. &nbsp;

A re-built T28 can be made to accept a T3 wheel. &nbsp;This set-up can push 30psi. &nbsp;As far as efficiently, I'll tell you when I get it back. &nbsp;

You're still an ass. &nbsp;

--luke

[Jeff240sx]

Im not going to quote this one, because it is short. &nbsp;Anyway.
Yes. &nbsp;I am talking about streetability. &nbsp;3 years for T.Y. Yap. &nbsp;
Most people don't have trailor queen 240's. &nbsp;Even Boosted drives his car on the weekends.
Headgaskets are Stock. &nbsp;They don't make thicker headgaskets, or metal headgaskets for the KA. &nbsp;Stock all the way.
I'm not going to have a clutch swap for a while. &nbsp;At least until I get rid of my AUTOMATIC tranny. &nbsp;Or... I could go with a Level10 rebuild of the auto, and never have a clutch. &nbsp;Think outside the box.
And if you are talking about street cars... why did you give a 600hp example? &nbsp;A t25 can be run at 30psi too, but at what efficiency? &nbsp;Just post a link to a compressor map. &nbsp;I'll do the math for you.
Anyway. &nbsp;Both engines are great. &nbsp;I have not knocked the SR, and will not. &nbsp;But you need to lighten up.

[Kreator]

Uhh, luke, i'd stop arguing in yer place. You are getting yerself into a deeper and deeper shit, and jeff ain't the guy whom u'd want to argue sr vs ka bs.

Now i'm gonna say some things, which i know about srs and what i know bout kas. There is a guy around here (civickkilla) who's running an s14 blacktop. That thing alltogether cost him somewhere around 6 grand. He is pushing 16 psi (iirc) and is kinda scared to go further on all the other stock parts. He is running 280rwhp iirc. He isn't a noob, perfectly knows what the fuck he is doing and i really doubt that he overpayed anywhere in his setup. Therefore honestly i think u are bsing with yer 300whp $4300 setup.

The reason u rarely hear about ka daily drivers is cuz there are really few of them out there. But Jeff240sx and uuninja run them as daily drivers ok. But now let's go to the basics. You get your s13 sr for $2300 that puts u at what? 205hp? Now take a custom built turbo kit for KA. $2700 and u are hitting the 240hp mark. With all the money for upgrades for the sr that would take you to hit the 300 hp, you'd easily rebuild the ka and do the same thing. The point is, once u get the sr, u need to change lotsa shit before u can go on. On the kat u gotta change the pistons before you go on. All in all it will come out the same. But lets see on the bad side. Suppose you blow your sr? How much are u gonna be paying for parts to come here from japan? How long are you gonna be waiting? Think KA now. blew a piston, visit junkyard, $600 and 2 days later you are back on the road again.

I'd post some more shit, but jeff coverd most stuff that i was gonna say.

[luke91]

If people have had KA cranks with stand that much power, Reliably, then Maybe I'm wrong. &nbsp;Big deal. &nbsp;Remember my quote?:

"If I'm right, I believe the stock KA crank is far weaker than the SR's, and can only hold up to 350whp. I might be wrong."

"I didn't go into detail because I had no clue you were turbocharged"

There's a lot you don't know about me.

" I also thought that you were a newb that talked alot. Now that I know you have an SR, I have more respect for you"

I had a swapped 240 way before I knew this messageboard existed, so being a newb has nothing to do with that. &nbsp;Hopefully, you and people like you will learn that. &nbsp;

"Just don't get bent out of shape on things, and stop flaming."

This whole SR vs KA thing started out as a peaceful conversation, motivated by a respectable disagreement of engine prefferences. &nbsp;I tried to keep it like that until you and Kreator felt the need to disrespect me.


RESPECTABLY, NOW:

3 years for T.Y's KA-T is really impressive, and I have new respect, now. &nbsp;

I never knew no one made metal headgaskets for KA's. &nbsp;

Still, how often has he replaced these parts?

As far your car. &nbsp;I'd keep the Auto trans. &nbsp;I know it's not the "cool" thing to have an auto trans., but I'm also sure you don't care about that. &nbsp;I believe the auto will be more consistend, and faster. &nbsp;No turbo lag. &nbsp;I just don't know if the gearing you're gonna want is available, or if they can be made strong enough. &nbsp;Good luck, seriously. &nbsp;

as far as compressor maps on my T25/T28, I think this will be the first of it's kind. &nbsp;I haven't found anyone that has any compressor maps. &nbsp;

As far as the 600hp street car...
A lot of people think they can have fully built, 600hp engine and drive it on the street. &nbsp;A lot of people think that a fully built engine will make a really, really fast street car. &nbsp;It won't happen.
I used this example when someone said that the KA will always be able to produce more power because of bigger displacement. &nbsp;I didn't want people to start comparing ultimate horsepower between the two engines, because that has nothing to do with street cars. &nbsp;That's all. &nbsp;It makes sense to me. &nbsp;

--luke

As for Kreator:

"He is pushing 16 psi (iirc) and is kinda scared to go further on all the other stock parts"

If he has a blacktop, I don't blame him. &nbsp;Both S13's and S14's have 370cc injectors. &nbsp;S14's have a bigger turbo, though, which may (but probably won't) outflow it's injectors. &nbsp;He should be worries about running lean, not damaging stock parts because of power being produced. &nbsp;
On an S13, you can unplug the wastegate altogether, and not lean out.

[luke91]

Kreator, here's your list:

S13 blacktop SR20DET: &nbsp; &nbsp; $2300
Front mount IC w/ piping: &nbsp;$250
3" Downpipe & exhaust: &nbsp; $250
448cc injectors: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $300
Fuel pump: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$200
Boost Controller: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$100
Clutch: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $400
Apex SAFC: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $200
BOV: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$100
T25/T28: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$200
Total: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $4300

&nbsp;Pretty neat, huh?

--luke

[Jeff240sx]

No. &nbsp;I don't think that I am gonna keep the auto. &nbsp;During the 2nd gear shift, it drops out of boost, for about 500 rpms. &nbsp;I hate that feeling every time. &nbsp;It is like a rocket, then a car, then a rocket... &nbsp;And overdrive is entirely too large... &nbsp;Then I don't want to select 3 gears and overdrive for my tranny... I'd rather have 5 gears in a manual. &nbsp;And just like everyone else... I dream of a modded SR 6-speed.
Yes... auto's are more consistent for drags, and cheaper due to no clutch maintenance, and grinding gears in a mis-shift. &nbsp;But anyway... why wouldn't autos have turbo lag? &nbsp;Brake-boosting? &nbsp;I can't do that. &nbsp;My tires start spinning at 2300rpm. &nbsp;Z-rated sticky tires, and brand new rear pads on fresh rotors... still spin at 2300. &nbsp;I dont hit boost till 3000, and full boost at 3700.
And it really does make sense not to talk about power potential. &nbsp;That is why I don't like KA vs. SR debates. &nbsp;Fastest KA in the world is privatly owned and running 10.41 last I knew. &nbsp;It had some modifications since then, but still... 550hp and a 150shot of n2o. &nbsp;Jun had a 9second silvia. &nbsp;But nobody here will ever duplicate either of those feats... so why debate them?
-Jeff

[luke91]

Kreator, here's your list:

S13 blacktop SR20DET: &nbsp; &nbsp; $2300
Front mount IC w/ piping: &nbsp;$250
3" Downpipe & exhaust: &nbsp; $250
448cc injectors: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $300
Fuel pump: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$200
Boost Controller: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$100
Clutch: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $400
Apex SAFC: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $200
BOV: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$100
T25/T28: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$200
Total: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $4300

&nbsp;Pretty neat, huh?

--luke

[luke91]

Kreator, here's your list:

S13 blacktop SR20DET: &nbsp; &nbsp; $2300
Front mount IC w/ piping: &nbsp;$250
3" Downpipe & exhaust: &nbsp; $250
448cc injectors: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $300
Fuel pump: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$200
Boost Controller: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$100
Clutch: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $400
Apex SAFC: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $200
BOV: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$100
T25/T28: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$200
Total: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $4300

&nbsp;Pretty neat, huh?

--luke

[luke91]

I'm not sure that list keeps getting posted like that. &nbsp;Sorry, everyone

--luke

[luke91]

Anyway, I know someone is going to ask, so here it is:

When I bought my engine, I also bought two others and sold them. &nbsp;The deal was three engines for $6500. &nbsp;I got two red tops, and one blacktop, all S13's. &nbsp;I kept the black top. &nbsp;

The intercooler is a cut-down Ford Powerstroke Turbo Diesel unit. &nbsp;I welded the end tanks, spickets, and intercooler piping. &nbsp;

I made the downpipe and exhaust from straight 3" tubing and 2 3" mandrel bends. &nbsp;There is one 10 degree crush-bent bend near the muffler, which is an Apex N1. &nbsp;

The boost controller and clutch and fuel pump were bought new. &nbsp;

I bought the 448cc injectors online. &nbsp;I was told I paid too much for them. &nbsp;

The Apex SAFC And the blow-off valve I bought off a friend of mine.

The T25/T28 I bought online, too. &nbsp;I got a deal on that one. &nbsp;It's almost total crap. &nbsp;The oil seals are really bad. &nbsp;That's the one being re-built.

--luke

[flipboi13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LanceS13 @ Oct. 03 2002,6:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hope this doesn't come across as defensive or anything...but I'd like to point out some flaws in your argument.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This would be true if all things were the same, but they aren't.
The SR can put out over 400whp on stock internals.
The KA can't, and you'd have to spent far more money to make it do that. And once you have, you don't have as streetable an engine as an SR producing the same numbers.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
How do you figure?
I wouldn't run a SR at 400hp w/o rebuilding and expect it to last. You don't know what that engine was put through in Japan. When you do rebuild, you're rebuilding a $2K engine instead of a $400 one...assuming you have to buy a KA. You'll have to buy new stuff like bigger turbo, fuel pump, injectors, engine management, etc., etc. to get the SR up there anyway. In the end you'll end up spending as much or more for the SR. And what if something breaks?...you may be garaged for two months while waiting on something from Japan to be sent to you. And more streetable? How so? The KA should have more low-end street-use torque available being the less peaky engine of the two.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Building an SR is also less expensive, considering the number of already-made parts available for it, whereas with the KA, many of the same parts need to be custom made. Custom parts are expensive.
Example: where do you find a stroker crank for a KA?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
See above. Most parts needed are mass produced for the KA, are generic, or can be made fairly cheap...manifolds, turbos, and downpipe respectively for example. Custom stuff is for people who are picky and like to make more power from the little things...like custom manifolds and headwork.
And you don't stroke KA's. They're strokers to begin with.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, the two engines are different internally.
The Sr was designed for forced induction. The cylinder sleeves, water passages, and other smaller details are different in the two engines. Then you have the infamous "piston-cooling oil squirters" in the SR20 that don't exist in the KA. I realize these differences are small, and not entirely necessary, but they help make the Sr more streetable. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
wrong again...the KA does have oil squirters. Not sure about the differences in the sleeves and water passages, but I doubt they're so big as to disqualify the KA from being streetable.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I'm not trying to discourage anyone that wants to build a KA-T, I'm just saying the SR is a more practical route. A fully built KA may produce more power that a fully built SR, but it really doesn't matter. A 400hp SR-powered 240sx street car will probably beat a 600hp KA-powered 240sx street car, anyway, due to traction, so it really doesn't matter. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
That's what a good driver and slicks are for. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I swapped in the SR because I wanted a reliably fast street car that didn't break everyday. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
That's about as ignorant as saying all domestics have horrible reliability.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Bah, are you picking my mind Lance? Pretty much everything I wanted to respond to as well &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'> &nbsp; After that, the comments pretty much go down hill so i have no reply &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

I think the KA is better than the SR because it has iron cast underwear. &nbsp;Nobody can smash those balls with that there &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[luke91]

No body cares, flipboi. &nbsp;It's over. &nbsp;No sense in quoting the whole thing. &nbsp;

--luke

Anyway, what about my equal length, plunem-less, tubular manifold? &nbsp;If individule throttle bodies and carburators exist without plenums, why can't my manifold. &nbsp;

I agree that plenum size matters on a NA car, but for a turbo car, My manifold should be better. &nbsp;Don't you all agree?

Right now, somebody is making plans to get rich off this design. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hmmm:'>

--luke

[Red]

Yes Luke that would be me... Hitting the patent office in the morn. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[allmotorKA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luke91 @ Oct. 04 2002,01:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...Anyway, what about my equal length, plunem-less, tubular manifold? If individule throttle bodies and carburators exist without plenums, why can't my manifold.

I agree that plenum size matters on a NA car, but for a turbo car, My manifold should be better. Don't you all agree?...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
ITB's do not need plenums because there is a throttle plate for each intake runner. &nbsp;The reason a plenum is used in single throttle applications is because it is very difficult to get the air to flow evenly to each intake runner without the plenum...even when you have equal length intake runners. Imagine the flow of air through the throttle body...it is not uniform (especially next to the throttle plate and shaft) so you need the plenum to stabilize or buffer the air flow so that each intake runner inhales the same amount of air.

[Kreator]

Dude, i was keeping the discussion friendly untill u posted the oil squirters and crank thing. I realize that you might have differnt views, but when u start bashing an eninge without completely knowing wtf u are talking about, people get pissed.

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Oct. 04 2002,10:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dude, i was keeping the discussion friendly untill u posted the oil squirters and crank thing. I realize that you might have differnt views, but when u start bashing an eninge without completely knowing wtf u are talking about, people get pissed.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
OMFG! &nbsp;STOP!

Haven't we learned yet that KA/SR posts are so completely pointless?<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??? &nbsp;AUGH!!!!

This whole thing started with intake manifold talk...how did we get sooooo off topic.

Eric

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (uiuc240 @ Oct. 04 2002,10:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kreator @ Oct. 04 2002,10:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dude, i was keeping the discussion friendly untill u posted the oil squirters and crank thing. I realize that you might have differnt views, but when u start bashing an eninge without completely knowing wtf u are talking about, people get pissed.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
OMFG! STOP!

Haven't we learned yet that KA/SR posts are so completely pointless?<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??? AUGH!!!!

This whole thing started with intake manifold talk...how did we get sooooo off topic.

Eric</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Read the 14th reply on the first page...

[Loren]

CA is cheaper to get to 300-500hp than SR or KA. CA is Solid Lift, SR and KA are hydraulic, CA revs the highest from the factory... in fact with new slugs and balanced rods and crank you can spin it to 9k, I've never heard of SR or KA being revved that high. CAs are cheaper than SRs, and I believe if you buy a brand new kit for a KA its cheaper than that as well. Oh yeah, CA is 200cc less.. but if I remember correctly you guys are all about small displacement... or why not swap in a v8.

[AceInHole]

lol... too much arguing about engines... in that case, just get an FJ20(D)ET with an FJ24 crank. &nbsp;problem solved. &nbsp;revs higher than the CA, displacement and strength of the KA (iron block), &nbsp;and race proven-ness of the SR.