F1 bans engine development for 10 years

[Matej]

I misspelled development in the title.
http://jalopnik.com/cars/racing-news/is-this-the-end-f1-bans-engine-development-for-10-years-331695.php


"FIA has just announced a 10-year ban on engine development in Formula One. Teams will have to submit an engine to FIA by March 31, 2008, which they will then have to use through 2017. Speaking about the decision, FIA President Max Mosley said, 'There is no need to develop an F1 engine any further. The engine runs at 19,000 rpm, which is far faster than any comparable engine. It sounds good, it's reliable and amazingly the six partially frozen engines of the current manufacturers are really evenly matched.'"

"We used to be avid F1 fans, attending the Silverstone Grand Prix nearly every year during our childhood. Recently, that passion has disappeared, largely because of incredibly boring races, a dearth of personality within the sport and mind-boggling rule changes. We can't help but feel that this latest policy change has completely removed the sport's last remaining point of appeal: technological development. How did we get to this point?"

[kouki_s14]

well that sucks

[maxgohan]

lol this should make things more interesting...this is good because as it stands right now, whoever has the most money wins all the time
plus how much better do these engines need to get? they put out like 900 fucking hp from 3 liters!, what are they gonna add rocket thrusters to them next?

[IIIXziuR]

19,000 RPM for another 10 years?
I was hoping I was gonna see some 25,000RPM motors in the near future.
Oh well.

[Matej]

lol this should make things more interesting...this is good because as it stands right now, whoever has the most money wins all the time
plus how much better do these engines need to get? they put out like 900 fucking hp from 3 liters!, what are they gonna add rocket thrusters to them next?
But then according to your reasoning they might as well make all of them use the same engine to make it fair. This way, if one of the teams happens to have a significant advantage in the engine design they submit, it'll be 10 boring years of one manufacturer winning all the time. While they're at it, they should also ban all right-hand turns haha.

10 years is a long time. The more rules a sport has, the dumber it gets.

[jskateborders]

might as well watch nascar...

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

19,000 RPM for another 10 years?
I was hoping I was gonna see some 25,000RPM motors in the near future.
Oh well.

there was already a ban on max RPM. i think the max ever was honda at 24000 RPM or something dumb like that, 3 years ago.


but yeah, for this coming year, there was already a rule that the manufacturers had to use a spec-ECU. there's too many rules now in an effort to dumb down the cars. hopefully slicks come back in 2009.

[SimpleS14]

Slicks are not allowed in F1?!?!

Damn...there is really nothing special between the cars if they are restricted on ECU AND engine development.

Doesn't F1 technology eventually trickle down into production cars? Of course start with high end cars.

I guess the only motorsports racing I'm interested in is Touring, Rally and Grand Am.

[SimpleSexy180]

the most retarded thing ever.

[muddafakka]

Boooooo :down: :down:

[SoSideways]

Doesn't F1 technology eventually trickle down into production cars? Of course start with high end cars.


Well, some of that technology can be found on the Mercedes and BMW production cars, and you can find them for around $20k-30k barely used, so that seems like a good deal to me.

Even Honda and Toyota has benefited from the technology that was developed for F1 into their production cars.

This new rule is stupid, really turns me off from watching or participating in the F1 world anymore...

[Andrew Bohan]

might as well give them all identical cars, weighted to the driver to make them all the same weight.

then it'll just be about skill and cheating

[mangoes]

wth are they thinking? they basically put a cap on automotive technology development for the next 10 years.

[CrazyIvan]

F1 rules come and go every few years and I bet this is one of em...

[Antihero983]

i'll take "fail" for a thousand alex.

[steve shadows]

might as well watch nascar...

same thoughts :jerkit:

[ThatGuy]

Hey FIA people...

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9637/incaseoffailurevx9.jpg

Go ahead and break that bad boy out.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

Slicks are not allowed in F1?!?!

Damn...there is really nothing special between the cars if they are restricted on ECU AND engine development.

Doesn't F1 technology eventually trickle down into production cars? Of course start with high end cars.

I guess the only motorsports racing I'm interested in is Touring, Rally and Grand Am.

they do the grooved tires thing. i'm talking about full, no grooves slicks. honda and bmw were testing with new full slicks at jerez last week to collect data for bridgestone. there's a slight chance that they could return in 2009. and yeah, some technology trickles down. like back in the early 90's when the honda F1 turbo engines were kicking the shit out of everything, VTEC made its way down into the NSX.

[PoorMans180SX]

Yeah, this is seriously getting retarded.

You know what they should have done in the first place?

Made a budget limit.

Okay, okay, that's not perfect either I know, but it's better than all this bullcrap they're throwing around now. Standard ECU's? No engine development? Limited tire compounds? C'mon, there is hardly an F1 left.

[WilloW]

Boooooo :down: :down:
Exactly how I feel. I've always looked at F1 as a technological wonder, and then now this.

[steve shadows]

socialism is creeping into everything :-/

cough cough fucking europe

[KA24DESOneThree]

... I didn't watch anyway.

Now I care less.

[tre]

We'll see if it happens. Got to see if all the engine builders agree to it. There is a large process that it goes through, plus money talks in that sport. And I'm sure the teams have lots of money :)

[k's_silvia2.0]

Wack!!! Ok so its like yea you you can race but you have to be just like everyone else.

[snatch13]

I love some of the comments in this thread...

Honestly, this is a good idea. Do you guys understand how many millions of dollars each team spends each year to squeeze out a few hp? I just read today that BMW's engine budget was greater than the entire dividend paid to shareholders last year.

Now teams can focus more on other aspects of racing other than just engine tuning. Last year's championship was good, but now there is a better chance that someone else other than Ferrari or McLaren will take the top 4 spots. Espcially with Alonso driving for Renault.

[TurDz]

Watch one of my favorite videos for reasons why they probably placed that ban:

Part (2 of 3) talks about money, technology, R&D
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5031725335184252110

"Inside the Williams headquarters, some of the world's best engineers are busy spending more than a quarter billion dollars of sponsorship money."
"There's no time for socializing...it's flat out from dawn till dust and that's what wins you Gran Prixs"

But I don't agree with the ban at all. Why restrict technology advancement, even if it costs the company hundreds of millions?

[ManoNegra]

"We used to be avid F1 fans, attending the Silverstone Grand Prix nearly every year during our childhood. Recently, that passion has disappeared, largely because of incredibly boring races, a dearth of personality within the sport and mind-boggling rule changes. We can't help but feel that this latest policy change has completely removed the sport's last remaining point of appeal: technological development. How did we get to this point?"

Boring races? This guy wasn't watching the same races I was during the past season. McLaren and Ferrari going at each others throats... inner-driver drama in McLaren... championship decided in the very final race of the year...

Dearth of personality!? Really? Even with Hamilton breaking almost every rookie record and almost unanimously being hailed as Schumacher heir apparent?

Mind boggling-rule changes... ok, there is truth in that. But I gotta say that the current qualifying format is one of the most interesting I've seen in the years I've followed F1.

Aside from the issue of freezing spending and thus giving smaller teams a better chance of competing - Super Aguri performing better than parent team Honda comes to mind - it's also a question of safety. Even with all the rules that have been devised to slow down cars they're reaching times that are very very close to track records.
And also this news doesn't come much as a surprise to those that follow the sport closely since they've been talking about this for quite some time.
Also, no one's mentioned the lack of traction control in 2008 cars. But that's probably not as important...:ugh:

[HyperTek]

thanks for the vid Turdz

How legit is that site ??
i trust my info from http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/ and http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news.php

This ban will eventually get lifted sometime as all bans do... Slicks return and no tire warmers either if i recall, as well as no traction control

Even with a motor development lock, there is still advancements in aero, gear ratios etc, that can be adjusted.

should make for some more close wheel racing, yet more challanging and skillful.

If your like me, you start to fall in love wiht prior and nostalgic F1 era stuff, its just soo much cooler knowing that anything that happens in F1 becomes a part of history..

offtopic- im looking forward to playing 1991 season in rfactor heheh http://youtube.com/watch?v=VNBDG9EmbV0&feature=related

[k's_silvia2.0]

cough cough fucking europe

Did someone say Europe?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7_IKcMl_a9A&feature=related

[SimpleS14]

Off-topic...but I thought it was funny...and I have no idea where else to post it...

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9283/lewschut5.gif

[Matej]

Even with a motor development lock, there is still advancements in aero, gear ratios etc, that can be adjusted.
The motor development ban includes aero restrictions, restrictions on wind tunnel testing time, wind tunnel models can't be larger than 60% of real size, and a few other things if I recall correctly.

[ManoNegra]

Off-topic...but I thought it was funny...and I have no idea where else to post it...

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9283/lewschut5.gif

Something about seeing schumacher's head in a McLaren uniform is just sacrilegious to me.

[HalveBlue]

+1 on the boo.

This shit's retarded. It's a competition. Fuck putting arbitrary limitations on that.

EDIT: A budget limit, that I could live with. Then the teams would have to make sacrifices on some things in order to gain the advantage of others.

[Bushido]

stupid, all these rules do is stifle technological innovation and development.

[Farzam]

Hahaha wow

That's stupid as Hell

[S13Boosts]

Off-topic...but I thought it was funny...and I have no idea where else to post it...

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9283/lewschut5.gif




:keke:




msglength

[weagle]

This is where I am slightly confused. They are banning engine development for 10 years.

currently 11 teams. room for 1 more.

Between the current 11 teams there are only 6 engine designs.

What if ferrari, renault, honda and toyota tells the teams running their spec engines to fuck off??? thats red bull, toro rosso, force india, super aguri and williams without engines right?

I know renault has stated they can't afford to supply more than 2 teams with engines, one being renault and the other red bull. What if other teams can't afford to supply any other team with engines anymore.

What happens to that team that would basicly be engineless? If engine development is frozen

[ManoNegra]

This is where I am slightly confused. They are banning engine development for 10 years.

currently 11 teams. room for 1 more.

Between the current 11 teams there are only 6 engine designs.

What if ferrari, renault, honda and toyota tells the teams running their spec engines to fuck off??? thats red bull, toro rosso, force india, super aguri and williams without engines right?

I know renault has stated they can't afford to supply more than 2 teams with engines, one being renault and the other red bull. What if other teams can't afford to supply any other team with engines anymore.

What happens to that team that would basicly be engineless? If engine development is frozen

I don't see the logic in your argument. What does an engine development freeze mandated by the FIA and supply among engine builders and teams have to do with each other. How can an engine manufacturer tell a team to 'fuck off' when they're under contract?

[weagle]

Have you ever seen a contract for 10 years in Formula 1? The longest one I can think of is the one Ferrari just did with spyker(now force india) for another 3 years.

If ferrari says it will no longer supply Force India engines in 2010. What exactly do they do? They can't develop a new engine. So wouldn't that make them engineless?

Contracts don't mean anything in Formula 1. Unless you are coultard haha.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

Have you ever seen a contract for 10 years in Formula 1? The longest one I can think of is the one Ferrari just did with spyker(now force india) for another 3 years.

If ferrari says it will no longer supply Force India engines in 2010. What exactly do they do? They can't develop a new engine. So wouldn't that make them engineless?

Contracts don't mean anything in Formula 1. Unless you are coultard haha.

i see no logic in that either. they can't get "new" engines, but for example, there's nothing to prevent them from running a 2010-spec engine in 2011. cost savings. just like when sauber used to run 1 year old ferrari engines badged as petronas.

[ManoNegra]

If ferrari says it will no longer supply Force India engines in 2010. What exactly do they do? They can't develop a new engine. So wouldn't that make them engineless?


But that could have happened at any time prior to this new change and hasn't/didn't. I remember when not too long ago Cogsworth stopped supplying a team, forget which one, and they just moved on to another engine supplier. Happens but not necessarily catastrophic to F1.

[max2damax]

Lets all stop going to school for 10 years and see what happens, we have evolved pretty good up to this point anyways. psshh. that is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.

[weagle]

The engine development freeze is to save money.
a.THIS DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE USING ONE SINGLE ENGINE FOR TEN YEARS.
b.They will keep building the same 2007 engine until 2017.

If ferrari says they can't supply engines to the customer cars. They can't run a 2010 spec engine in 2011 if they don't have said 2010 engine.

Customer cars run Factory motors becuase it is cheaper. If the big teams wont sell them the engine. I don't think the customer teams have a secret building with the blueprints of a factory motor.

I'm confused on how none of you are understanding my logic.


No engine supply = no engine = team with no engine.


MANO <-------------------

I understand that this could of happened at anytime. This is the part that you really need to look at. If you can't develop an engine at all. Do you think the FIA is going to let a team design a brand new engine if they don't have a factory motor deal?

Again with switching engine suppliers. You take what you can get but what if nobody is willing to supply the engines?

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

But that could have happened at any time prior to this new change and hasn't/didn't. I remember when not too long ago Cogsworth stopped supplying a team, forget which one, and they just moved on to another engine supplier. Happens but not necessarily catastrophic to F1.

williams


weagle: they can run an engine that meets the current formula. just because they don't get new engines doesn't mean they don't have old ones. you're thinking too much into it. if teams seriously think that supplying other teams is not in their best interest, then there would be 6 manufacturer teams and no others. everyone PAYS for engines. as long as they can pay, then there will be engines to buy. look at williams, they have always been privateer. when bmw jumped ship to sauber, all williams had to do was buy customer cosworth engines, and they were set. then cosworth went under. switch to toyota power. oh yeah, there's a rule that you have to supply if there is interest. you don't have to supply all, just as many as you want to. which, in general, is one, save for ferrari, who sells engines to spyker/force india and toro rosso. if nothing else, the FIA will probably make someone supply engines. it's not out of the question, as all manufacturer teams have the means to do it, and the FIA know this.


long paragraph. i love F1. :keke:

[ManoNegra]

Lets all stop going to school for 10 years and see what happens, we have evolved pretty good up this point anyways. psshh. that is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.

Yeah, let's because apparently students are now super-geniuses that are easily surpassing the capabilities of professors and learning institutions.
And you're right "that is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while".

[SimpleSexy180]

haha, im sure they will have secret motors/cars being tested somewhere.

[SexPanda]

You know whats gonna happen? These teams and companies are going to continue to develope engines, but be sneaky about it. Have private shops and what not do all the work, and in 10 years, there are going to suddenly be some crazy ass 1 litre 1000 hp engines out there that rev to 30,000 RPM.

[weagle]

Thank you taniguchi.

Engine freeze = dumb
Going back to standard transmissions = would be nice.