downshifting

[KingKong8247]

Hey, Ok so when my pops taught me to drive stick he told me when Im slowing down and for example im in 4th gear to put it in third and slowly let out the clutch to help ya slow down and the same into 2nd and so on. And awhile ago a friend of mine told me thats bad for the tranny which I figured it would be grinding the gears or whatever but I figured my dads been driving stick for a good amount of years hes prob right So my question is, is this a good thing to do or should I just pop it into nuetral and just use the brakes to stop instead of downshifting and the brakes? Also do other people do this too? Thanks for the help.

[onebadm5]

There really is no need whatsoever to downshift for the sole purpose of slowing the car. Downshifting is ok when it's done to select a lower gear to accelerate, but compared to the brakes downshifting does almost nothing to help slow the car. The brakes certainly don't need any help. Downshifting while braking actually hampers braking because then the brakes are also having to drag the drivetrain down and it upsets the rear of the car. It's also a bad habit because you're not only putting sudden reverse loads on the clutch and tranny and the rest of the drivetrain all the way back to the rear halfshafts, you're also risking a forced engine over-rev if you screw up or not pay close attention to your current revs before downshifting. I've seen a few (and heard of many more) people damage their engines by downshifting improperly. I'm pretty handy with left-foot-braking and heel-and-toe dowshifting but i never ever downshift to slow the car. There is simply no need in any driving situation (as long as the brakes are working properly :-)

The best braking is done when the car is in neutral or the clutch is depressed. In a panic stop you should push the clutch pedal down and hold it there while completing the braking maneuver. This completely takes the whole drivetrain out of the loop and that's a ton of drag gone right there.

(its different in the case of trucks. Look at a big truck diesel engine and the Jake Brake. It takes engine braking to an extreme, actually turning the diesel engine into a reverse air pump, pumping air from the exhaust to the intake when the throttle is released. It is absolutely necessary for slowing down large trucks, and accounts for the loud rumble you hear when truckers let off the gas).

[AKADriver]

Doing what you describe won't hurt the transmission.  It is bad for the clutch, however.  Like onebadm5 said, it's totally unnecessary.

[Kaede]

When you say stop, I'm assuming you mean complete stop. It's easiest to just slip it into neutral and brake. Brakes are much easier and cheaper to replace than the clutch.

As for downshifting, you should downshift if you plan to continue moving. Also, you shouldn't just slip to a lower gear and then release the clutch, you'll feel a rough jolt (especially when downshifting to 2nd gear). Learn to double clutch, heel & toe, or just rev the car a bit while the clutch is disengaged then slowly release clutch.

[xhdriver]

You guys are idiots, it hurts nothing to downshift. why would it be bad to slow the car but good if you plan on excelerating?

your dad is right. if you feel like doing it,do it, and dont worry about it. the only time its bad is if your going to fast for the gear you try and put it into, youll know when you do this because you will hear a gnarly crunch and that crunch will make you never want to mess up again.

[adey]

I feel that the only time it's absolutely necessary to use transmission braking is when I'm going from a high speed (freeway) to a low speed (offramp) situation.
While downshifting alone will not do too much (don't get me wrong, it will slow your car down slightly), it's effective when you're slowing down a lot (i.e. from a high speed).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Downshifting while braking actually hampers braking because then the brakes are also having to drag the drivetrain down and it upsets the rear of the car. It's also a bad habit because you're not only putting sudden reverse loads on the clutch and tranny and the rest of the drivetrain all the way back to the rear halfshafts, ......</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I don't really understand this, I didn't think transmission braking had anything to do with the 'normal' brakes. (You still slow down if you downshift w/out touching brakes...) Do you mean the TIRE (additional drag on the tire; it shouldn't do anything to the brakes) thus possibly causing you to lose traction?
Upsetting the rear of the car is hardly something I'd worry about when coming to a stop sign from 35... I don't think this guy's talking about slowly letting the clutch out on a track doing 120, which wouldn't make sense if you're trying to go fast.

I see reverse loads being put on the clutch/parts of the drivetrane, but why is that bad? He specifically said "slowly" letting the clutch out, and unless putting any sort of negative stresses on these parts (which take a lot of 'positive' stress if you take off hard/fast from a light or if/when you miss a shift) simply can't take a reverse load, there should be no problems.
-- a case in point: even when silly people downshift to accelerate without rev-matching, you don't see their trannies exploding. Other than being slightly uncomfortable to sit through (jerky movement), I can't believe this does any excessive harm to your car. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xhdriver @ Sep. 22 2002,05:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys are idiots, it hurts nothing to downshift. why would it be bad to slow the car but good if you plan on excelerating?

your dad is right. if you feel like doing it,do it, and dont worry about it. the only time its bad is if your going to fast for the gear you try and put it into, youll know when you do this because you will hear a gnarly crunch and that crunch will make you never want to mess up again.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Um - yeah. &nbsp;Before you go offensive, try having something of factual value to add. &nbsp;No one was talking sh!t and m5 actually gave an excellent explanation. &nbsp;So sit down, STFU, and learn something.

I really can't add much beyond what was said. &nbsp;The basic rule is that BRAKES are for STOPPING the car. &nbsp;PERIOD. &nbsp;The ENGINE is to MOVE the car - not stop it. &nbsp;

Downshifting is "bad to slow the car but good if you plan on 'excelerating'." &nbsp;If you are coming to a stop, you will not want to downshift b/c there is no reason. &nbsp;Again - brakes are to stop the car. &nbsp;Now, downshifting is good if you plan to accelarate b/c you don't have enough power in a higher gear. &nbsp;Example: &nbsp;You are coming off a freeway exit and onto a surface street where you will have to merge, going from 60 mph to 35 mph, however, the turn requires you to slow before you can merge. &nbsp;Odds are you were cruising in 5th on the freeway, but will only want 3rd on the street - and further, that you will want third to most comfortably negotiate the turn. &nbsp;In that case, you will want to exit, brake/clutch, select third gear, rev match, and release clutch. &nbsp;THis will keep the car stable and allow you power to poke into traffic. &nbsp;If, however, after the ramp was a stop sign, you don't need that power - you are just braking. &nbsp;There are more examples in track driving - but that is another story. &nbsp;

While downshifting may not cause huge wear, it causes significant wear - enough to shorten the life of your clutch.

So your father is incorrect. &nbsp;Engine breaking will shorten the life of your clutch, but do little to your brakes. &nbsp;A clutch costs several sets of brakes. &nbsp;Use your brakes to slow and the engine to go.

[mrdirty]

M5 pretty much said it all, engine braking is ok to prolong the life of your brakes under gradual decceleration but never at the expense of your clutch...always rev-match or don't downshift to slow down at all...downshifting is a technique to stay in the suitable power band.

xhdriver: You, my friend, ARE an idiot;learn to drive, then come back...or better yet, don't come back at all.... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[whateverjames]

uhhh. i think i'd rather wear my $12 autozone brake pads before i'd use my $300 clutch (then $300 for labor) twice as much, just to simply slow down my car. not to mention more wear on our already potentially crappy syncros. brakes were designed to stop a car. nissan didn't design the 240SX with a braking system just good enough that we would have to actually go through all this crap to slow down a car. and it's not like our cars are super heavy. we don't have the best brakes in the world but the car slows down with little effort compared to a lot of cars.

[Jim96SC2]

Only reason that I can see to downshift is to keep those RPM's at peak HP when racing.

[keepitmovin]

Just use your brakes, its what there for.

[bing]

i cant beleive this!!!!!!!

i rarely rarely rarely rarely use my brakes.... i always always always downshift. &nbsp;i love it, sometimes i will come to a complete stop at an intersection without using my brakes at all.

i started because i enjoyed the sound and the feeling, but then on eof my brake lights went out and i did it just so no one would notice.

my synchros were already messed in third gear. and it was only when up shifting that i could hear them winding, or if it grinded, but only if i shift to quick. the only grinding i ever heard downshifting is when i tried to shift into 1 at 40km

downshifting is the shit, when taking curves downshifting lettign the exhaust whale out and speeding up hard as you exit. coming to a slow down whether it be off ramps or lights that just turn green.

and my clutch is good as day 1, and my brakes are fine too.

[gabossie]

When my dad first taught me how to drive, he told me to downshift to slow down and I didn for a long time. The more I learned though, I realized that it extends the life of your brake pads at the expense of your clutch. Personally, I would much rather replace the brake pads. Like most everyone else said, downshifting is used for exceleration and to keep you in the optimum power band.

keepitmovin - Rev matching is used so that when downshifting into a corner, you don't send a shock through the drivetrain and upset the rear end of your car. You do it by depresing the cluth and taking your car out of gear. Then you release the clutch and rev the engine to the expected RPM's of the lower gear. Then you quickly put the car back into the lower gear. Then you are in the power band for accelerating out of the corner without upseting the balance of your car. This takes lots of practice to do well, try it while going straight first to avoid an accident. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[KingKong8247]

Hey, thanks everyone for the replies. Yeah I think I agree with everyone where as Id rather replace my brakes than my clutch. &nbsp;And to clear this up I wasnt talking about downshifting and rev-matching and keep on going I can do that fine I just meant when going to a complete stop. Well thanks a lot for the help.

[VERTiG0]

So what most everyone is saying, is to just shift into neutral when you're near the stop, and use the brakes?

[xhdriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Um - yeah. Before you go offensive, try having something of factual value to add. No one was talking sh!t and m5 actually gave an excellent explanation. So sit down, STFU, and learn something.

I really can't add much beyond what was said. The basic rule is that BRAKES are for STOPPING the car. PERIOD. The ENGINE is to MOVE the car - not stop it</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

ok genius, the basic rule is that the CLUTCH is for DISENGAGING THE POWER so you can SHIFT and SMOOTHLY TRANSFERING POWER from the ENGINE to the TRANNY. PERIOD. up, down, left or right it doesnt matter where you shifting. and of course the brakes are for stopping, GOOD FACT! of course you cant add much because instead of thinking about the question, you chose to jump on the "idiots who give people obviously wrong information" bandwagon.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">M5 pretty much said it all, engine braking is ok to prolong the life of your brakes under gradual decceleration but never at the expense of your clutch</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

i guess we should all drive around in first gear so as not to use the clutch too much. THAT IS WHAT THE CLUTCH IS FOR.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nissan didn't design the 240SX with a braking system just good enough that we would have to actually go through all this crap to slow down a car. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>


im not saying that downshifting to slow down is neccasary, actually i never did. im saying it does not "excessivly wear" anything. and nissan didnt design the 240SX with a clutch that shouldnt be used whenever you want.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">. The more I learned though, I realized that it extends the life of your brake pads at the expense of your clutch. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

same thing to you as i said to whateverjames, and where did you learn this? probably here.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">xhdriver: You, my friend, ARE an idiot;learn to drive, then come back...or better yet, don't come back at all.... </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

you know what i am an idiot. and you are a sweetheart. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'>

[AKADriver]

If you're slipping the clutch to slow down, then you are putting a lot of wear on the clutch. &nbsp;period. &nbsp;Nissan actually considers clutches wear items just like brakes, apparently so do you... &nbsp;but with the cost I'd rather not think of it that way.

[LanceS13]

It's not absolutely necessary to downshift when stopping....but I do it anyway. &nbsp;Here's why:
1. &nbsp;I like to keep the engine around 2-3.5K rpm in case a situation occurs where I need usable power for evasive action. &nbsp;I don't think a moving car should ever be in neutral...but just my opinion.
2. &nbsp;I like practicing heel-toe any chance I get. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
3. &nbsp;Downshifting is FUN!! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[HippoSleek]

Wow - for someone with such a piss-ant size brain, you sure do have big fvcking balls! &nbsp;You actually think that the entire board is wrong and you have the lock on knowledge? &nbsp;Geezuz H. Christ xh, you haven't even explained yourself. &nbsp;You coudn't even grasp the concept of weight-transfer and optimal power usage. &nbsp;Yet you are the only one who knows what the hell he's talking about? &nbsp;Those of us who autox or track our cars haven't figured out what you are so sure of? &nbsp;Pull your head out of your rectum, clean the sh!t out of your ears, and listen to us, boy!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok genius, the basic rule is that the CLUTCH is for DISENGAGING THE POWER so you can SHIFT and SMOOTHLY TRANSFERING POWER from the ENGINE to the TRANNY. PERIOD. up, down, left or right it doesnt matter where you shifting. and of course the brakes are for stopping, GOOD FACT!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
One question - what power are you transfering during braking? &nbsp;NONE. &nbsp;Nice fallacy, my little choad chugger.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i guess we should all drive around in first gear so as not to use the clutch too much. THAT IS WHAT THE CLUTCH IS FOR.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
No one has said this will lead to catastrophic failure, just reduced life. &nbsp;Okay - simple concept for your simple ability to comprehend: If you use something twice as often (i.e., up-shifting and down-shifting) how long will it last? &nbsp;HALF AS LONG! &nbsp;But I admit, that is an oversimplification - actually, downshifting is much HARDER on a clutch b/c it is easier to rev match in an upshift when you only have two pedals to focus on then in a downshift when you have three.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">im not saying that downshifting to slow down is neccasary, actually i never did. im saying it does not "excessivly wear" anything. and nissan didnt design the 240SX with a clutch that shouldnt be used whenever you want.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Define excessive wear - do you mean "unnecessary wear" or "extreme wear"? &nbsp;No, downshifting for a full stop may not cause extreme wear (i.e., catastrophic failure), but it certainly is unnecessary because, as you admitted, the brakes do just fine. &nbsp;And finally, yes, Nissan did design the clutch to be used whenever you want... and the brakes. &nbsp;Do you drive around riding the brakes just b/c you like to wear out pads? &nbsp;NO - that would be fvcking stupid. &nbsp;Yet, somehow, you have no problem doing so with an item that costs five or six times as much.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">same thing to you as i said to whateverjames, and where did you learn this? probably here.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
All right, I'll bite - show me ANYTHING that says using the clutch for downshifting doesn't cause wear to it. &nbsp;ANYTHING. &nbsp;Show me where is says this is a good idea. &nbsp;Show me where you are learning these pearls of wisdom.

I'll tell you what, champ, why don't you crawl back over to where ever you came from that doesn't accept being wrong or listening to people that know what they are talking about. &nbsp;You've polluted this thread with your oral-diarrea with NO proof or even explanation. &nbsp;Loosen that visor, sport, I think its cutting off the circulation!

[onebadm5]

you know, this is a free country. you don't have to take our word for it.

In a race car, with a straight cut crash box, and the type of environment where everything gets replaced every race, downshifting for engine braking is advantageous, especially on road courses which require heavy braking. But on the street, just use common sense and use the brakes.

Your syncros will thank you <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[YellwMonky]

I think that downshifting is ok and I haven't noticed any wear on my clutch at all. The thing is, when I'm slowing down I don't ONLY use downshifting. I use mostly brakes, but when I'm using them I'm downshifting at the appropriate time. To just slap it into neutral and brake is actually putting unnecessary wear on your brakes. If you're going 60 and you slap it into third to slow down then of course that's not good. However, just sticking it in neutral and hitting the brakes is not good as well. Being in gear is good for two reasons. The first reason is that it helps to slow you down when you are in gear. Also, it is just safe to be in gear at all times. To avoid an accident, it will definitely help to be in gear to dodge whatever it is taht is going to hit you.

You just have to know how to downshift to the proper gear at the proper time. You will know that it is proper because your engine won't make a fuss when you downshift to that gear (no loud engine roar). I think the basic rule i use is at whatever speed you upshift into the next gear at, you downshift to that gear when slowing down....did that make sense? For example, if i upshift to 3rd at 30 mph then I'll downshift to 3rd at 30 as well. Now, this rule will change according to the situation of course, but that is a basic rule i stick around. I hear a few of you saying that downshifting is just plain fun and it is ! the only thing is you need to rev match in order to do it properly. This, in fact, is where i believe the fun is.

[kumanchu]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (YellwMonky @ Sep. 23 2002,1:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that downshifting is ok and I haven't noticed any wear on my clutch at all. The thing is, when I'm slowing down I don't ONLY use downshifting. I use mostly brakes, but when I'm using them I'm downshifting at the appropriate time. To just slap it into neutral and brake is actually putting unnecessary wear on your brakes. If you're going 60 and you slap it into third to slow down then of course that's not good. However, just sticking it in neutral and hitting the brakes is not good as well. Being in gear is good for two reasons. The first reason is that it helps to slow you down when you are in gear. Also, it is just safe to be in gear at all times. To avoid an accident, it will definitely help to be in gear to dodge whatever it is taht is going to hit you.

You just have to know how to downshift to the proper gear at the proper time. You will know that it is proper because your engine won't make a fuss when you downshift to that gear (no loud engine roar). I think the basic rule i use is at whatever speed you upshift into the next gear at, you downshift to that gear when slowing down....did that make sense? For example, if i upshift to 3rd at 30 mph then I'll downshift to 3rd at 30 as well. Now, this rule will change according to the situation of course, but that is a basic rule i stick around. I hear a few of you saying that downshifting is just plain fun and it is ! the only thing is you need to rev match in order to do it properly. This, in fact, is where i believe the fun is.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i do basically the same thing.

one thing that is completely wrong in this thread is that engine braking doesn't help when you are using your brakes. it helps significantly; especially in the 240 where the stock brakes are crap.

the compression of the engine during downshifting is more than enough to slow down the drivetrain and other such related parts and more. unless you are on the gas during downshifting; the engine compression will help brakes slow down the car; not to mention you are in more control of your car when you do downshift since you can accelerate again if needed at a moments notice (someone's about to rear end you for example)

[ruf]

Zilvia is funny... &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>

[KyoLo]

wtf LOL &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[thelinja]

Ok, here's how I see it. &nbsp;Every time that you use something, you put wear and tear on it, whether it's the clutch, brake pads, tires, whatever. &nbsp;If you use the clutch to downshift you're just putting more wear on the clutch and not the brakes.. and vice versa. &nbsp;Personally, I prefer to just shift to neutral and brake....but when I got the car, my dad told me to downshift...I didn't really like to, so I didnt. &nbsp;I think it just goes by preference. &nbsp;If you like to downshift...do it...if you're lazy like I am, don't do it.

Oh, and to whoever asked about rev-matching, it's when you give the car the same amount of throttle after shifting. &nbsp;This can cause engine harm. &nbsp;If you don't you'll bog the engine(you'll know this if you experience a little whiplash) &nbsp;I'm not sure what happens in the engine if you over compensate..but I read somewhere that it was harmful.

After reading this forum, I'm sure someone will correct me, or call me a moron or something of that nature..but oh well.

[xhdriver]

I would like to have an explanation on how it is bad for you to down shift as long as the revs are matched. &nbsp;And an explanation as to why this kids father is wrong... I can see if your going 60mph and you put it in 2nd gear and drop the clutch...that would be bad, but as long as you match your revs, wtf is the problem. &nbsp;Are you saying that you guys always put it in nuetral no matter how fast your going? If not, lets say that you brake on the freeway in 5th from like 70 to 60, what is the difference between this and rev matching your gear selection when stopping from 50 to zero and using your lower gears??? &nbsp;What is the difference between slowing down on the freeway in 5th or slowing down on the street in 2nd? YOu all are a bunch of idiots...except for the select few that happened to agree with xhdriver!!

Also as lances13 said, its always a good thig to be in gear, IMO, for the reasons he said...its fun and a safety factor.
How much more wear on your clutch could this possibly make? &nbsp;1or 2 thousand miles ? WHy race the car at all, go to auto-x or even take the car out ever? &nbsp;Do you guys launch in 2nd gear and shift to 4th after that? Your car is meant to be driven, and if you sissy faggots don't want to drive them and wear you wear parts, then sell it and buy a geo metro so your clutch will be as expensive as your brake pads....

[thelinja]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xhdriver @ Sep. 23 2002,4:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your car is meant to be driven, and if you sissy faggots don't want to drive them and wear your &nbsp;parts, then sell it and buy a geo metro so your clutch will be as expensive as your brake pads....</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Bingo.

[18psiAWD]

I agree with the awesome, talented and guru of Nissan's 100%. &nbsp;I would like to see some kind of proof that using your clutch is bad for your car at all. &nbsp;I want to see the "Holy book of dumb-asses" that you all go by, and point me to the section about how to be a pussy and never drive your car (and probably a modified one at that) the way it is meant to be driven... &nbsp;



Hippo Sleek: " Im scared of using my clutch to much, I shift as little as possible and I know because I got my "pearls of wisdom" from the book of vaginas"

[rubbersidedown]

xhdriver, i've been following this entire post.. i do know that it was stated that its only really necessary to throw it in to neutral when you are going to come to a complete stop. It would be completely stupid to throw it into neutral when slowing from one speed to another. It was also stated that while braking hard it is a bad idea to downshift simultaneously because it makes for unstable braking and makes your backend all squirrly. So i believe this whole topic was settled quite early on in the thread. i really don't know why everyone is still discussing it. but that's just my 2 cents. flame if you will but its a waste cause i really don't care &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

[ruf]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rubbersidedown @ Sep. 23 2002,4:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It would be completely stupid to throw it into neutral when slowing from one speed to another.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Unless your are double-clutching.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was also stated that while braking hard it is a bad idea to downshift simultaneously because it makes for unstable braking and makes your backend all squirrly.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Unless you are somewhat decent with heel-toe braking and are using the drivetrain to help stabilize the car. Also makes the transition from braking to acceleration much smoother if you are in gear. This all refers to track use of course.

[HippoSleek]

GO AHEAD! &nbsp;Knock yourselves out. &nbsp;Heck - go a head and hold yourself on hills using the clutch too. &nbsp;If it wasting stuff isn't an issue for you, by all means...

18 year old pussy w/ a DSM shitbox (18psiAWD?): I guess I've never driven my car properly, by your standards. &nbsp;I don't street race, yo. &nbsp;And I don't double clutch - I granny shift. &nbsp;Speaking of which...

Grandma says... (http://www.aarp.org/mmaturity/jan_feb01/consumer.html)

Done. &nbsp;

You can all go back to your discussions of boulevard pimipin'

[rubbersidedown]

.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unless your are double-clutching.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
that was just dumb and its a given
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unless you are somewhat decent with heel-toe braking and are using the drivetrain to help stabilize the car. Also makes the transition from braking to acceleration much smoother if you are in gear. This all refers to track use of course.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i said when comeing to a complete stop. you didn't read what i said apparently

[KEIVmx]

A heated discussion . . .

I've driven only FR cars with MT throughout my whole driving career (although very short).
I've always downshifted and upshifted while changing speeds in order to keep my engine available for immediate power.
I try to keep my rpm within the torquey range so that I can either slow down or accelerate without having the engine rev too low or high.

If people are so concerned about clutch wear, try clutch-less shifting.
Once mastered, this technique will probably be one the most valuable tools you'll acquire.
Shifting is done without touching the clutch pedal.
A careful balancing act needs to be played with the gas pedal and shift knob.
If you screw up the timing ever so slightly, you get that familiar metallic grinding sound from beneath you.
If you match engine rev and tire rotation speed perfectly, you'll get an immediate shift that cannot be match in quickness by any automatic or "semi-auto."
I can't explain how to do this in words.
I taught myself through riding a motorcycle.

In normal driving, I use my clutch pedal because clutch-less shifting is very abrupt at low speeds.
Especially on a 240SX with very weak brakes, engine braking becomes necessary on long canyon runs, etc.

It's your driving style, feel free to do whatever you like.

[ruf]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rubbersidedown @ Sep. 23 2002,6:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unless your are double-clutching.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
that was just dumb and its a given</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
No it wasn't a given. It was neither mentioned nor implied.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unless you are somewhat decent with heel-toe braking and are using the drivetrain to help stabilize the car. Also makes the transition from braking to acceleration much smoother if you are in gear. This all refers to track use of course.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i said when comeing to a complete stop. you didn't read what i said apparently</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
And yes I did read your post. Keeping the car in gear tends to stabilize the car under braking unless you are doing dumb stuff to jolt the drivetrain. Panic braking to a stop or hitting your braking marker in turn 4, it's the same regardless. I simply added the transition to power bit at the end, because that's what MOST people use it for.

You guys are hilarious. I just add some input and you start the attitude. "Streetracers"... ha!

KeivMX - bingo. Beats the heck out of your tranny when you miss though... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[onebadm5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KEIVmx @ Sep. 23 2002,5:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A heated discussion . . .

I've driven only FR cars with MT throughout my whole driving career (although very short).
I've always downshifted and upshifted while changing speeds in order to keep my engine available for immediate power.
I try to keep my rpm within the torquey range so that I can either slow down or accelerate without having the engine rev too low or high.

If people are so concerned about clutch wear, try clutch-less shifting.
Once mastered, this technique will probably be one the most valuable tools you'll acquire.
Shifting is done without touching the clutch pedal.
A careful balancing act needs to be played with the gas pedal and shift knob.
If you screw up the timing ever so slightly, you get that familiar metallic grinding sound from beneath you.
If you match engine rev and tire rotation speed perfectly, you'll get an immediate shift that cannot be match in quickness by any automatic or "semi-auto."
I can't explain how to do this in words.
I taught myself through riding a motorcycle.

In normal driving, I use my clutch pedal because clutch-less shifting is very abrupt at low speeds.
Especially on a 240SX with very weak brakes, engine braking becomes necessary on long canyon runs, etc.

It's your driving style, feel free to do whatever you like.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
As long as the revs are matched correctly on the upshift and the downshift, there is no more stress on the box than there is when using the clutch. When the gears are aligned at the correct speed, they will just fall into place.

As for shifting a street car without a clutch, don't even try. There's no performance benefit, and only harm to be done to your clutch, synchros, and gears themselves. The throws on any street box are long enough that you have plenty of time to use the clutch. On a race box with super, super short throws, you can complete the shift in FAR less time than you can get the clutch in and out. Besides, pros pull race transmissions apart after EVERY weekend, whether they think something is wrong or not. Unless you plan to do so with your street car, stick to using the clutch.

[AceInHole]

heel-toe downshifting without the clutch.... ahh the glory of getting around that squeaky pedal...

[mbmbmb23]

A couple observations:

-How many people in here actually own a 240sx? How many have actually driven a 240sx IRL and not just on Gran Turismo?

-If you want tons of brake dust on your front wheels....go ahead and throw it in neutral at 50mph and brake to a stop.

-If you wanna be one of those drivers who, when driving in "bumper to bumper" traffic, continuously hit the brake (starting a chain reaction of un-necessary braking behind you)....go ahead.....just dont be suprised if I pass you in 1st gear at 4k RPM with my middle finger extended.)

-If you have ABS, and you never drive on icy/snowy roads.....dont worry about learning to emergency downshift (engine brake until the rear starts to go....then tap the brakes while downshifting).

-Downshifting past 3rd gear without using the brakes at all is for showing off your exhaust note.

-Downshifting when entering an off-ramp that slowly goes uphill and crosses back over itself (cloverleaf exit ramp underpass merges to overpass). Downshifting like this keeps you in the powerband and helps you climb the slight incline.

-Downshifting when coming off and off-ramp and merging onto another road (Yield sign or not) is important if you are trying to keep up with traffic (that you're merging with) and not sit there in the far right lane with your left-hand signal on waiting to merge because you over braked and lost your peak RPM range (3-4.5K).

-Senior posters......dont get your panties in a twist over what a few nOoBi3z claim to know. There's like 10 people on this board who I'll listen to......because they've proven themselves over time, that they know what they're talking about. Everything else is entertainment.


-m

[YellwMonky]

Um...Hipposleek...No disrespect, but although your article is pretty interesting it doesn't really apply to this topic. Well, at least against some of our arguments. Your article says:

"A common practice when driving cars with a manual transmission is to slow the car by downshifting to a lower gear instead of using the brakes. This bad habit wears out the clutch and gear-synchronizer rings, and puts extreme loads on the engine’s crankshaft."

Emphasis on, "...to a lower gear INSTEAD of using the brakes." Not being in a gear is dangerous. If anything happens you will definitely want to be in gear and not lose precious seconds trying to get into a gear when facing a hazard.

Also, if you downshift properly, there should be no more wear on your clutch then when upshifting.

[flipboi13]

kumanchu, xhdriver, YellwMonky, well explained, I'm glad there are people here who actually know about cars on a technical level rather than guessing or making stuff up! &nbsp;I myself, use engine braking alot, of course I use my brakes too, but I have learned to use them at the right times and situations. &nbsp;As some people mentioned, if you are using engine braking at the right time, there really won't be more wear than usual, and for those of you who can't understand this, you will learn, hopefully, how to drive your car. &nbsp;And for those of you who will say "I know how to drive my car, stfu" you obviously must be right; and 40+ years of car enthusiasts have been wrong all along! Congrats, you must be smarter than those people who rebuild entire cars as a hobby.

As I said before, if you know how drive your car, and don't treat it like a piece of trash, thinking you'll replace it once your break it, you'll become a much better driver.

Now for my bitching:
What really annoyed me in this whole thread are the people who say "i think..." b/c they really don't know, and people try to make their post sound technical (when they don't know what they are talking about). &nbsp;If you don't know what you are talking about, then don't say anything and sit there or better yet, go out and take classes on rebuilding engines and auto systems. &nbsp;

The other thing that annoys me, in threads in general is people who throw out an idiot comment with the obvious intent to start something, and say "just flame me, i don't care" thats the worst, if you don't care, then don't say anything at all, go take your frustrations on soemthing else.

[i hate rice rockets]

ok just put it like this...drive the way u want to damn drive!! if u want to engine brake....then go ahead n do it...and if u just wanna put it in nuetral and brake...then do it...but its all ur own opinion and u cant say which ones better...so why dont everyone just stop fighting over which oens better.... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[anthony240]

Bottom line of this whole damn thing, downshifting will slow you down. if for instance you think you are going too fast for the upcoming stop, would you rather stomp on your brakes or downshift to help slow down?

an important factor has not been discussed yet: WARPED ROTORS. Rotors will warp faster and easier than a clutch going bad. Add to that brake pad fading, which also happens faster, and getting your rotors turned, you'll be in deeper shit than replacing the clutch, which will not go bad for a LONG time.

Braking on FR cars takes a while, cause the brake bias is in front, so the rotation of the rear wheels takes time to slow down. the main use of the braking system is to transfer the load. if the brake bias was in the rear, the back of the car would slide out more easily on hard braking. just keep in mind that it'll take a while for the brakes to really slow down the car.

I've already upgraded to Z32 four pot brakes and I still downshift. Back when I had stock brakes, it sucked! I almost rearended people for countless times. now, if I find myself braking too late, I just downshift, slip the clutch out, and more load is transfered to the front of the car, slowing the car more.

I don't do this all the time. Of course, if you do, then it's an issue. But it's a great practice for those times when it comes in handy.

Now, shall we say End of Discussion?

[LanceS13]

No, because downshifting isn't meant to slow the car. &nbsp;The brakes will slow the car down a hell of alot faster than downshifting will. &nbsp;The purpose of downshifting while slowing, is not to slow the car down, rather it is to have usable power on tap if you need it.
Now...end of discussion. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[xhdriver]

sweet god all mighty...i give up.

[SilviaDriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xhdriver @ Sep. 22 2002,05:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...good if you plan on excelerating?...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
"excelerating" ... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>

[flipboi13]

I think the discussion was good with anthony's post. &nbsp;That extra one with your OPINION wasn't neccessary.

[tnord]

there is so much incredibly wrong with this thread it's mind boggling. i'm not going to even attempt to straighten out this tangled ball of yarn. everybody just forget this thing even started, and do whatever the f you want.

[onebadm5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ Sep. 25 2002,1:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there is so much incredibly wrong with this thread it's mind boggling. i'm not going to even attempt to straighten out this tangled ball of yarn. everybody just forget this thing even started, and do whatever the f you want.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
as ralph would say,
"I bent my wookie." <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[bbp]

Here are my feelings on the whole downshift thing. &nbsp;I haven't read all the posts; I pretty much stopped when what'hisface called everyone an idiot, exposing his true ignorance.

The engine and drive train is design to propel the car forward. &nbsp;IT IS NOT DESIGNED TO STOP THE CAR. &nbsp;That is why you have a brake pedal. &nbsp;The only time you down shift is when you need to select an appropriate gear for your speed. &nbsp;Now, when coming to a complete stop or approaching a corner, heel and toe downshift, WHILE BRAKES ARE SLOWING THE CAR, NOT THE ENGINE. &nbsp;That is the whole point of heel and toe downshifting is to reduce the amount of stress on the clutch and driveline components.

I suppose compression-braking (which is what it is called) sounds cool and can be used in certain situations, but if you were driving MY car around town using compression braking all the time I would have to throw a maglight at your forehead like an unruly drunk. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

The clutch is designed to smoothly transition power from the engine to the drive train. &nbsp;Here is the definition of
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Clutch: Any of various devices for engaging and disengaging two working parts of a shaft or of a shaft and a driving mechanism. The apparatus, such as a lever or pedal, that activates one of these devices. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Notice how it states a driving mechanism? &nbsp;If it were to be used as a brake, don't you think they would put a big label on it called Brake #2?

To further this "how shitty do you drive" thread, how many of you actually know what a dead pedal is? &nbsp;Do you use it? And for those poor souls that were taught this is the RIGHT way. &nbsp;Come out to a driving event and learn from the pros. &nbsp;Just because your father told it was right doesn't mean he can drive either.
:!: &nbsp;:!: &nbsp;:!:

[YellwMonky]

yeah....this discussion should be really dead by now. now its just ignorance piling on top of ignorance. How the pro's drive huh..? haha....unbelievable...

[DuffMan]

I know this is kind of irrelavant but I think it's interesting. On FWD cars when racing, engine braking can actually reduce understeer and help tighten the line.

Of course that's useless to us blessed to be free of wrong wheel drive. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>

[Silviaspeed]

OK, I haven't read everyones post, its too damn long, so I'm just gonna add my 2 cents. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Downshifting is not good for the tranny or the clutch depending on how well you rev match. &nbsp;When I downshift, I always try to rev match. &nbsp;However, rev matching does not slow the car down like slipping the clutch would. &nbsp;Rev matching just prevents that sudden jerk brought on by a different RPM in a lower gear. &nbsp;I like to use downshifting and braking at the same time in some situations, when done right your brakes help your clutch and vice versa to stop the car. &nbsp;One thing I never do is simply put the car in nuetral and coast to a stop. &nbsp;I know from driving commercially licenced vehicles that free moving parts within the drivetrain can cause a good deal of damage as well. &nbsp;Plus, in NY anyway, you can be failed on you road test for doing that. &nbsp;Its like someone mentioned b4, you need to have control over your vehicle at all times just in case. &nbsp;Always stop like your driving an automatic, and when you reach a slow enough speed, depress the clutch. OK, let me shut up now....... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>

[RedlineRacer]

You guys actually had you dads teach you how to drive a stick? my dad just got me in the car and said, "see the pedal on the left...thats the clutch." And I had to pretty much go from there. I wish my dad had told me more.

[tnord]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DuffMan @ Sep. 25 2002,8:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know this is kind of irrelavant but I think it's interesting. On FWD cars when racing, engine braking can actually reduce understeer and help tighten the line.

Of course that's useless to us blessed to be free of wrong wheel drive. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
actually that's not quite right

the main reason trailing throttle oversteer (tto) occurs is because of weight transfer. when you take your foot of the throttle, yes, engine braking occurs, hell, you don't even have to take it completely off, just modulate it. this takes weight off of the rear tires and places them on the front, helping turn-in, or if you start going wide, it can assist in pointing the nose back where you want it. tto occurs in all cars, some more than others, FWD more than RWD because the front wheels aren't trying to accelerate as much anymore, allowing them to use their traction for turning.

that's the basics of it, i'm sure i got some minor things wrong, so dave, pj, bbp, mark, lance, and all you other legitmate drivers feel free to correct me. STUNNA'S NEED NOT APPLY &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/whatsthat.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':whatthe:'>

[DrDubbleB]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bbp @ Sep. 24 2002,4:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but if you were driving MY car around town using compression braking all the time I would have to throw a maglight at your forehead like an unruly drunk. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I was just going to sit back and enjoy the show (which is really quite entertaining I must say), but I had to comment on this...ahhh man, that's classic! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'>

[AceInHole]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ Sep. 24 2002,11:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteBegin--DuffMan+Sep. 25 2002,8<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DuffMan @ Sep. 25 2002,8<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know this is kind of irrelavant but I think it's interesting. On FWD cars when racing, engine braking can actually reduce understeer and help tighten the line.

Of course that's useless to us blessed to be free of wrong wheel drive. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
actually that's not quite right

the main reason trailing throttle oversteer (tto) occurs is because of weight transfer. when you take your foot of the throttle, yes, engine braking occurs, hell, you don't even have to take it completely off, just modulate it. this takes weight off of the rear tires and places them on the front, helping turn-in, or if you start going wide, it can assist in pointing the nose back where you want it. tto occurs in all cars, some more than others, FWD more than RWD because the front wheels aren't trying to accelerate as much anymore, allowing them to use their traction for turning.

that's the basics of it, i'm sure i got some minor things wrong, so dave, pj, bbp, mark, lance, and all you other legitmate drivers feel free to correct me. STUNNA'S NEED NOT APPLY <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/whatsthat.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':whatthe:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
LoL... I'm a #1 stunna tho

It's all about distributing energy....
Anyways, I'd say in a FWD car, engine braking is only going to use the front wheels for braking, which is using some percentage of energy distributed to the front wheels for braking, whereas it COULD be used to help turn the car. &nbsp;This is the entire reason you're supposed to brake early into corners, so that you end up as neutral as possible using as much traction (which can really come down to more energy equations) to turn the car. &nbsp;Note that in turning, all wheels (even rear wheels) are fighting the car's natural tendancy to keep wanting to go straight, so really you can't just say that you only need the fronts to turn and neglect the rears.

Now that I broke into a useless tangent.... &nbsp;it'd be tough to say from a physics standpoint if engine braking in FWD would help fight understeer... as you're forcing the fronts to do more work (and we all know each tire can only do so much work) and taking away weight to allow the rears to do the work they need (frictional force = weight x gravity x frictional coefficient... so you need some gravitational force.. at least this is thinking really simplistically). &nbsp;i'd say it's more likely for the car to rotate, but not necessarily hold a tighter line, if not understeer more.

In RWD, however... you're shifting weight to the front, while taking more energy away from the rear tires... somewhat like pulling the e-brake. &nbsp;we all know what that does without having to go into basic physics.

and once again... i'm probably wrong at some point in all this.

[Kaede]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Sep. 26 2002,01:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(frictional force = weight x gravity x frictional coefficient... so you need some gravitational force.. at least this is thinking really simplistically).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Actually, friction force = mass x gravity x coefficient of friction. If you use weight, then friction force = weight x coefficient of friction, cause weight = mass x gravity.

[DuffMan]

Yeah travis, it is true that it's not unique to fwd, but it seems to work much better for them.

[HippoSleek]

Hmm - while typing this, I've convinced myself that downshifting in a turn is a no-no - especially for fwd cars:

Like Travis said, it loads up the fronts and takes weight off the rear to allow the car to turn in harder. &nbsp;That's the easy part. &nbsp;The hard part is is this better than feathering/stabbing the brakes. &nbsp;Obviously, the hardest thing to do (and the reason one might want to downshft) turn an fwd car w/o understeer. &nbsp;

Most fwd cars on a track or autox have huge rear bars to allow more rotation in the back for just this reason. &nbsp;My first reaction was like pj's - "What about the friction circle? &nbsp;You're making the fronts work too hard." &nbsp;While downshifting would increase weight/grip in the front, the brakes would do a better job of this. &nbsp;Trailbraking would allow transfer of weight/grip to the front, while also increasing rotation of the rear (b/c they are easier to lock when there is no weight on them). &nbsp;All while keeping two hands on the wheel.

[bbp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm - while typing this, I've convinced myself that downshifting in a turn is a no-no - especially for fwd cars:

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You are correct. &nbsp;For both FWD and RWD cars. &nbsp;Approaching a corner the sequence should be:

1. Brake
2. Select proper gear towards end of braking zone to ensure you don't over rev.
3. transition from brake to throttle as you begin to add steering input.

If you find you have to up shift before the exit point of the turn, you could probably enter that turn in the next higher gear.

Trail braking is continue the brake pedal pressure as you begin your turn in. &nbsp;Very common in Autocross, works in road racing in corners say, under 80mph. &nbsp;Many time it is used to get an ill-handling car to turn. &nbsp;Say a street car with stock suspension, which is designed to push. &nbsp;Basically you are attempting to keep the weight onthe front end (off the rear) to get the car to rotate. &nbsp;If the car continues to push thru the corner, probably going too fast for that particular car set up.

Lift throttle oversteer is when you take your foot off the throttle mid corner and the car begins to rotate. &nbsp;Very common if FWD for the simple fact that most of the weight is over the front wheel. &nbsp;The weight is shifted to the front due to compression braking (which started this whole mess). &nbsp;Can be good or bad depending on if the driver intended to rotate the car or not. &nbsp;Probably the culpit of most spins at a driver's school. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">now its just ignorance piling on top of ignorance. How the pro's drive huh..? haha....unbelievable...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

hey monky pay attention, you may just learn something...that what this is supposed to be all about, right? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[tnord]

i didn't mean to imply shifting mid turn IN ANY situation.
1) you'll be looking the wrong way if you try this
2) if that doesn't happen either
&nbsp; &nbsp; a. you have hella grip
&nbsp; &nbsp; b. you don't have enough power (a relative phrase)
&nbsp; &nbsp; c. this "turn" really shouldn't be considered one

as bbp said, you don't have to downshift to use compression braking, all you need to do is modulate the throttle, which isn't really braking at all, it's just accelerating less. &nbsp;

and yes monkey boy.....bbp is a pro.....he gets paid to drive. as for me, mark, pj, and others; no we don't get paid to do it, but yes we do it competitively.

now who's the #1 STUNNA &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>

[YellwMonky]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are correct. &nbsp;For both FWD and RWD cars. &nbsp;</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
RWD cars are easy. &nbsp;Everyone knows that is a big no no. &nbsp;I have some great action photos in my webshots (or imagestation?) account of a guy in a silver Spec Miata going around in turn 10 at Summit. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'>

Turn 10 is a right that connects a short straight to the front straight. &nbsp;iirc, I hit it in the middle of 4th. &nbsp;Read "FAST" &nbsp;In that whole race, this guy was the only one downshifting for the turn. &nbsp;Every time he'd get squirley b/c he was braking with the gears. &nbsp;Finally, it just caught up to him. &nbsp;Lucky he didn't go over! &nbsp;After two more laps of downshifting, he quit... and picked up about 1 sec./lap and looked much safer &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

In my limited experience, I think about every spin I've seen has been TTO, except a TT Rx-7 that went around in a carosel. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('> &nbsp;I've actually been w/n less then a car length of collecting two guys who didn't beleive that the throttle is your friend.

[junia]

Hey, I got a good idea to get rid of this argument. &nbsp;Why don't everyone just drive automatics. &nbsp;This argument is stupid, its like fighting over the right way to pronunciate tomato. &nbsp;I say just lock this post and go on with our lives.

[flipboi13]

Well, I've pretty much set it in my mind now, that you can do whatever you want to do. &nbsp;If anyone else has anymore "OPINIONS", please keep it to themselves, unless you happen to have a professional degree in automotive systems including drivetrains, then by all means enlighten us. &nbsp;

I'm getting tired of people trying to educate us with their theories on how a car moves. &nbsp;Unless you think that cars move using gerbils as a motor. &nbsp;That would be a much more interesting topic.

[AceInHole]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Kaede @ Sep. 25 2002,03:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Sep. 26 2002,01:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(frictional force = weight x gravity x frictional coefficient... so you need some gravitational force.. at least this is thinking really simplistically).</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Actually, friction force = mass x gravity x coefficient of friction. If you use weight, then friction force = weight x coefficient of friction, cause weight = mass x gravity.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
yeah... i knew that. thanks for the correction.

now... back to thermo &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[AceInHole]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (flipboi13 @ Sep. 25 2002,9:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, I've pretty much set it in my mind now, that you can do whatever you want to do. If anyone else has anymore "OPINIONS", please keep it to themselves, unless you happen to have a professional degree in automotive systems including drivetrains, then by all means enlighten us.

I'm getting tired of people trying to educate us with their theories on how a car moves. Unless you think that cars move using gerbils as a motor. That would be a much more interesting topic.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
lol.... in the meantime what are the mech eng's, professional drivers, and basic track junkies trying to tell you???

I'm sorry to say, but you've just given half of us the exclusive right to voice out our "OPINIONS".




#1 STUNNA group... for all those who can back their sh!t up.

[YellwMonky]

when did this topic turn into a racing discussion? the original question was about downshifting to slow down. not about turn 10 at summit. there is a humongous difference in how you drive on the street and on the track. i think you guys forgot totally what the original topic was and now your egos are walking you around like a dog. i'm done with this topic. its so stupid it hurts. basically, if i was riding in someones car and they got off the freeway at 75 only to slap it into neutral and coast to a stop i would know they are a beginner manual driver. either that or just plain foolish. either we're just having a major miscommunication or my trust in your guys' knowledge is now nonexistent.

[camppain]

someone explain to me why throwing the car in nuetral is bad for the drivetrain when there is nothing being transferred from the clutch?

there is no stress <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>

i do it so call me a newbie at driving stick but im not keeping the car in gear till i come up to the bumper and slam on the brakes nor will i downshift to slow down

[AceInHole]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (YellwMonky @ Sep. 26 2002,02:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">basically, if i was riding in someones car and they got off the freeway at 75 only to slap it into neutral and coast to a stop i would know they are a beginner manual driver. either that or just plain foolish. either we're just having a major miscommunication or my trust in your guys' knowledge is now nonexistent.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
or... TTO around one of those curved off-ramps and you hump curb (or ditch).

[YellwMonky]

I never said anything about neutral putting stress on the engine. I'm saying that being in gear will slow your car down so there's no point in getting out of fifth gear. coasting in neutral is dangerous. its as simple as that.

[bbp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">when did this topic turn into a racing discussion? the original question was about downshifting to slow down. not about turn 10 at summit. there is a humongous difference in how you drive on the street and on the track. i think you guys forgot totally what the original topic was and now your egos are walking you around like a dog. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

monky

there really is not a tremendous difference in how you drive on the street or on track, other than the speed (I hope). &nbsp;There are many techniques that one learns on track that carry over to street driving. &nbsp;Let me give you a simple funny example.

I know you have gone thru a fast food drive thru at least once in your life. &nbsp;Next time you go to (insert restaurant name here) think about this. &nbsp;(this is true with ATMS as well)

Most places have the menu and microphone around the back of the building, require that you pull around a tight turn to the side of the building to get your grease laden mystery meat. &nbsp;Have you ever pulled around and your car was too far from the window to make the exchange of money for fat with the clerk? &nbsp;I bet some of you have. &nbsp;Well, that is a perfect example of turning in too early, you just...(get ready for a racing term) "early apexed". &nbsp;The result of an early apex is you will swing wide on your exit and run out of room on the outside of the turn. &nbsp;You will have to open you door and lean out to reach your fodder. &nbsp;Think late apex=easy cholesterol access.

Does that make sense? &nbsp;That directly correlates with track driving and or racing.

Need another example?


This isn't an ego thing, it's actually a pretty good discussion about driving technique. &nbsp; And you are right about putting the car in neutral on an off ramp (maybe, not dangereous but...). &nbsp;The car should always be in the appropriate gear until it is stopped. &nbsp;Then it goes into neutral, your foot goes on the dead pedal and your right hand &nbsp;attempts to get a little feely-feely action from your girl sitting next to you. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Have a good weekend... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

(oh, BTW, &nbsp;you said a couple times you were done reading this thread, yet you come back for more...is that the dog or the ego?)

[tnord]

http://forums.off-topic.net/images/smilies/fruit.gif

[hurleyboi514]

<!--QuoteBegin--bbp+Sep. 27 2002,08<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bbp @ Sep. 27 2002,08<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>1)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most places have the menu and microphone around the back of the building, require that you pull around a tight turn to the side of the building to get your grease laden mystery meat. Have you ever pulled around and your car was too far from the window to make the exchange of money for fat with the clerk? I bet some of you have. Well, that is a perfect example of turning in too early, you just...(get ready for a racing term) "early apexed". The result of an early apex is you will swing wide on your exit and run out of room on the outside of the turn. You will have to open you door and lean out to reach your fodder. Think late apex=easy cholesterol access.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
thats a really cool way of explaining it. very cool... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'> if any of you guys dont understand this stuff, find a track and find out. &nbsp;thats how u learn this stuff. &nbsp;you've gotta learn it 1st hand, someone cant spoon feed it to you. &nbsp;

track time <--- <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'>

[YellwMonky]

see, then its a miscommunication. you say that your car should be in gear until it comes to a complete stop. i just hope that when the car is down to about 10 mph you're still not in 5th gear ya kno? if you agree with that then i don't kno why this topic even goes on. For me anyways.

one thing tho, is that really true that you want to be driving the same way on the track and on the street (besides speed of course.) especially in terms of gear selection. I mean, i can understand your fast food example and i can see that you still want to take turns the same way. but i would think taht on the track you would want to be in a higher rev to take advantage of your powerband. When i'm driving around town i'm usually never over 3500 rpm.

i said the whole ego thing because i was stating legitimate reasons for thinking the way i do. Now some of the responses i was getting was things like "learn how to drive from a pro," and "you just don't know."

my only argument, if you guys even read my posts, is that you should be in the appropriate gear at all times. i just don't see HOW you can argue with that. some people are out there that really don't know if they sh ould be in a lower gear when slowing down. i think it's wrong to tell them otherwise because of turn 10 at summit with the miata. hahaha.

if you guys are going 10 mph and you're in 5th gear, that's fine with me, have fun. just when you can't get out of the way in time and hit something or somebody, think of the YELLOW MONKEY. hahaha jk. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'>

[flipboi13]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lol.... in the meantime what are the mech eng's, professional drivers, and basic track junkies trying to tell you???

I'm sorry to say, but you've just given half of us the exclusive right to voice out our "OPINIONS". </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Don't be mean <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Plus, i said so b/c this topic is really going nowhere, and some people are sharing their opinions and trying to force something on other people. For the most part, I think everyone got the drift, so there's really no point in arguing. And stop bringing up the "my right to voicing my opnion", that is old and you should know why. You meany!