is ground control suspension worth it? [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

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driftfreek

10-23-2007, 12:58 PM

i heard about ground control suspension and it sounds pretty cool, the problem is that i couldnt find out the springs rates, how stiff could one go with GC? any info...?

DP_Michelle G

10-23-2007, 01:02 PM

you can go as stiff as you like but tje problem is going to be with what shocks and struts you use

ManoNegra

10-23-2007, 01:02 PM

You can get them with custom spring rates (Eibach). Preferred suspension set-up of most auto-xers alongside quality shocks. What I plan to do in the future for the S14.

MavericStephenc

10-23-2007, 01:03 PM

I wouldn't do it.

spend the cash and do it right the first time with a nice set of coils. a friend of mine learned the hard way.

vipi0

10-23-2007, 01:06 PM

i heard about ground control suspension and it sounds pretty cool, the problem is that i couldnt find out the springs rates, how stiff could one go with GC? any info...?

there stuff is ok my dad uses it on his m3 depends largly on the shocks you use with the package

ManoNegra

10-23-2007, 01:09 PM

Well for me after following most of Wiseass' suspension threads and others with road racing and auto-crossing experience as well as having previously had average quality coilovers in all my former 240s, I think it's time to give GC + Koni shocks a try.
I want my S14 to ride like those slammed BMWs I see driving around. ;)

driftfreek

10-23-2007, 02:48 PM

millworkman

10-23-2007, 02:57 PM

bigOdom1

10-23-2007, 03:00 PM

ground control has their own reccomendations for each car they have parts for. they also sell custom spring rates that you ask for. i like mine just fine and run them with the yellow koni sports. all to GC specifications.

Tearlessj

10-23-2007, 03:05 PM

You shouldnt say "minus well get coilovers". If anything they are just as good if not better then some coilovers. It a pretty nice set-up.

firelizard

10-23-2007, 03:06 PM

Don't bother.

Might as well just get a coilover system where the damper and spring are matched to work in unison, and made just for your car. It's not like proper coilovers are that much more money than high quality struts and Ground Controls.

It's not that GC is a horrible system, but what's the advantage? Penny pinching ftl.

fromxtor

10-23-2007, 03:20 PM

More like tuned suspension ftw!

PRADOgy

10-23-2007, 03:21 PM

I think i seen some ground control's for sale at BIG LOTS ^__^

DP_Michelle G

10-23-2007, 03:25 PM

hit up drift freaq he had some for sale not to long ago

burnsauto

10-23-2007, 03:30 PM

i know a few dsm'ers that swear by them. but then again...dsm guys are just strange, lol

B Love

10-23-2007, 03:46 PM

Dude just get a good set of coilovers.

DP_Michelle G

10-23-2007, 03:48 PM

GC's are good if you have the time and know how to set them up

Gnnr

10-23-2007, 03:54 PM

You shouldnt say "minus well get coilovers". If anything they are just as good if not better then some coilovers. It a pretty nice set-up.

Thank you! Someone who knows what they're talking about!

I've had this conversation recently with Wiisass. Pretty much all of these Asian coilovers are just marketing garbage! With GC you have your choice of Koni or Bilstein shocks. I would only pick from those two shocks out of the other options GC offers...I think they offer Sachs too, also top quality stuff. If you don't like the Eibach springs you can put in some Hypercoils. These Asian coilovers never put up any shock dynos, and when they do they're not pretty.

steve shadows

10-23-2007, 04:43 PM

I wouldn't do it.

spend the cash and do it right the first time with a nice set of coils. a friend of mine learned the hard way.

how the hell did he learn the hardwaY?

GC + Koni is better than anything one piece ive seen.

The only piece from Japan Ive heard have held up to racing over here and

are comprable are Zeal pieces.

You can use KYB in a pinch ands its ok, or Koni Adjustable.

But the real koni with GC is better than JDM stuff (WHICH IS MADE IN TAIWAN)

drift freaq

10-23-2007, 04:52 PM

Man another thread with dumb ass shit spread by people that really don't know.

Steve Shadows hits on the nail head! Any fool that is dissing a Koni GC setup does not know a thing about suspension. The only advantage that JDM coilovers have is they are preassembled. Oh boo hoo you can't take the time to put collars properly on a dope ass set of shocks.
Fact is if you really want a nice setup? Koni's and Ground Controls are fucking sweet and won't cost you anymore than the ok lower budget coilovers. I try out suspensions, for the sake of checking them out. Its why I have a set of Ohlins with Apex springs on one of my cars right now. It also why I am checking out a set of KBees. You know what though? I am building a set of Koni's with Ground Controls because they are the shit plain and simple. Either read up on suspension, or STFU. Especially if your dissing Koni's and Ground controls.

driftfreek

10-23-2007, 05:04 PM

how much did you guys pay for konis and GC? i just called and they told me thats 1000 bux, tax included? spring rate like 400.

bigOdom1

10-23-2007, 05:09 PM

i dont remember what i paid i have had them since 2003

Tenchuu

10-23-2007, 05:16 PM

konis r the best shocks/struts out there huh? but theyre expensive. like 700 bux, plus GC 350 bux, you mind as well get coilovers.right?
the shocks that one could get would be based on your spring rate right? for example u cant get a cheap shock that is not going to hold that much spring rate or else it will blow huh? are konis n kybs or someother brand going to be able to handle such stiffness?

Man another thread with dumb ass shit spread by people that really don't know.

Steve Shadows hits on the nail head! Any fool that is dissing a Koni GC setup does not know a thing about suspension. The only advantage that JDM coilovers have is they are preassembled. Oh boo hoo you can't take the time to put collars properly on a dope ass set of shocks.
Fact is if you really want a nice setup Koni's and Ground Controls is fucking sweet and won't cost you anymore than the ok lower budget coilovers. I try out suspensions for the sake of checking them out. Its why I have a set of Ohlins with Apex springs on one of my cars right now. It also why I am checking out a set of KBees but you know what? I am building a set of Koni's with Ground Controls because they are the shit plain and simple. Either read up on suspension or STFU if your dissing Koni's and Ground controls.

OK so it looks like someone is almost stealing your name here Dave.
Drift Freaq has lots of experience and is proven knowledgeable over the years.
Drift freek has yet to make a reputation for himself around here.

choose wisely.

steve shadows

10-23-2007, 05:21 PM

how much did you guys pay for konis and GC? i just called and they told me thats 1000 bux, tax included? spring rate like 400.

thats abotu right.

but what fron dampers?

run 400 front 300 back for grip on street tires

400 front 350 rear for r comps

400 is highest you can go iirc and still have 2-2.5 inches of lowering ability with the sleeves.

AceInHole

10-23-2007, 05:46 PM

400 is highest you can go iirc and still have 2-2.5 inches of lowering ability with the sleeves.

LIES!

I have 450's on my rears. Fronts probably could handle a bit more, but I'm on 8611's now :)

I wonder what the DSG car uses? He had off-the-shelf yellows in back last I knew.

In the end: Koni Yellow + GC will outhandle pretty much every JDM coilover out there, and 100% of the pseudo JDM stuff.

drift freaq

10-23-2007, 05:48 PM

thats abotu right.

but what fron dampers?

run 400 front 300 back for grip on street tires

400 front 350 rear for r comps

400 is highest you can go iirc and still have 2-2.5 inches of lowering ability with the sleeves.

Ya steve but the imposter wants to think 400lbs is weak when actually its right around 8kg and 300lb is close to 6kg. i.e. same as most coilover setups people run.

Jefferson

10-23-2007, 08:12 PM

You can definatley go over 400 my buddy just bought a GC/Koni setup for his E30 and GC had some springs for that chassis that were up to 800 lb/in

Wiisass

10-23-2007, 10:44 PM

Spring rate and how stiff you can go on a given shock depends on the shock valving. So a Koni yellow for the s13 may be valved differently than one for the s14 and the valving of the shock and the weight of the car and some other factors determines what spring rate you can run and what damping ratio you will end up with. Damping ratio is the normalized way of looking at how the car will settle after an input and how the damper will absorb the spring energy.

And you guys should keep in mind that ground control isn't your only option. Unless I'm wrong, ground control just sells sleeves, perches and springs, which you can get many other places. Of course you have to get the right diameter sleeve for whatever shock you're going to run. Koni makes sleeves for their shocks, Bilstein does as well and there are tons of circle track places that sell sleeves that would probably fit a lot of these dampers. I'm not say that I'm positive that a random spring sleeve you find somewhere is going to fit whatever shock you want to use, but there will be a lot out there that will wor for what you want it to do. I don't have any problems with ground control, I just wanted to point that out because it seems like people think it's something different than just a "coilover kit" with an eibach spring. But I do like hypercoils better than eibach just from personal experience and from feedback from other people.

As for a coilover being matched with spring rate and valving. Everyone likes to forget that mass has a lot to do with what valving is needed for a given spring rate on a given car. So a 2400lb car will need different valving than a 3000lb car with the same springs. And from what I've seen a lot of the JDM stuff isn't valved that great to start.

But back to the Koni's, to know what spring rates you would want to run, you really need to get a dyno plot. Or at least call Koni and talk to someone in their motorsports department. They should be able to give you an idea of what you want to run. And if you want to run something out of the range, there is always the option of sending them out to get revalved. This does add to the cost, but in the end you will have a better suspension setup than you could've bought off the shelf.

Tim

steve shadows

10-23-2007, 10:52 PM

You can definatley go over 400 my buddy just bought a GC/Koni setup for his E30 and GC had some springs for that chassis that were up to 800 lb/in

smacks forehead

I know you can go to like bazillion (800 or iirc even higher)

OK GUYS!!!

you too aceinhole!!!

not lies lies!

but what GC told me is that for the KYB shock or the direct bolt on adjustable Koni shocks the spring is actually phsycially longer if you go over 400 or 450 I cant remeber right now.

Im pissed off if the guy was confused and just jacekd me off like that

either way I only wanted 6 R 8 F, so 400 F 325 R is fine for now.

racepar1

10-23-2007, 10:53 PM

steve shadows

10-23-2007, 11:00 PM

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

you mean they have too much suspension travel?

bottom out? as in? what compress the shock?

meagans ride like total shit compared to my 600 dollar suspension

KYB AGX + GC Eibach.

sorry man I dont know what your talking about. GC also sells bumb stops.

Im sure with Konis my car would ride night and day. But I cant afford the fuckers right now.

racepar1

10-23-2007, 11:13 PM

you mean they have too much suspension travel?

bottom out? as in? what compress the shock?

meagans ride like total shit compared to my 600 dollar suspension

KYB AGX + GC Eibach.

sorry man I dont know what your talking about. GC also sells bumb stops.

Im sure with Konis my car would ride night and day. But I cant afford the fuckers right now.

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

steve shadows

10-23-2007, 11:22 PM

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

thats funny because my car handles better than most of the cars with one piece.

your argumnet confusing.

The problem with GC cars that ride improperly is the SHOCKS the Valving!

not the length.

some one else back me up on this here

burnsauto

10-23-2007, 11:23 PM

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

..you cut off part of the bumpstop so its shorter....giving the shock more room to travel. (and thats only if its needed...)

Tearlessj

10-23-2007, 11:53 PM

racepar1

10-24-2007, 12:01 AM

Wow your so wrong.

Prove me wrong then, someone post pics of their front shock travel with the ground control coilovers (with the weight of the car on the suspension on that corner). I will guarantee you that even with the bump stops completely removed there will be about 2" of suspension travel max (unless you are running 4x4 status).

bigOdom1

10-24-2007, 12:05 AM

what experience do you have with this setup? as stated i have had it since 2003/early 2004. never have I blown anything. then again im not wreckless by any means in my car and only sprited weekend cruises with different groups sometimes alone. bottoming out has never been an issue and suspension has plenty of travel. now i dont know if i would suggest going for the ground with this setup. because that is not what it is intended for but it only allows so much any way with the length of the sleeve. if your trying to drag a bumper the no GC is not for you. if you want to put your car on rails then give it a shot.

im not sure what kind of pictures you want
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u283/odomandr/car/P4270016.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u283/odomandr/car/3.jpg
here are two that i have handy

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 12:10 AM

All you're proving is that a double height adjustable coilover will let you go lower than a ground control setup with an OE replacement shock. Good for you, you're right. Unless you do something to the shock, you won't be able to lower the car as much without losing a lot of suspension travel.

As for the ride versus handling relationship, they're a lot more connected than everyone seems to realize. All those bumps and the harshness you feel at the driver's seat has to come from somewhere. So if it is getting transmitted through the tire into the suspension and into the chassis, then what kind of fluxuations in vibrations do you think the tire is seeing. That's bad for grip. The shock is meant to control the accelerations that the tire and the chassis experience. So a good ride will allow the car to handle better than a harsh ride. Of course, it won't ride like a caddy, because things will be happening a lot faster due to stiffer components, but it can still ride nicely. I've built dampers that ride nice and perform better. On the street, they were perfectly fine, not much harsher than a stock Accord, and on the road course the benefit of this ride quality was seen in several sections of the course where there were some larger bumps or rougher sections. These sections were unsettling a lot of the car, but our car could go right over them with no problems.

So a spring sleeve setup is not something for people who want to slam their cars or don't really know what they're doing. There are a million different ways to do the suspension and they all have their pros and cons. It depends on what you want and what you care about.

Tim

racepar1

10-24-2007, 12:13 AM

That pic is totally at the wrong angle to see what I wanted to see, but the set-up looks a little different than I was picturing. I was thinking like the honda fags where they just set a sleeve in there. My bad guys, I guess its not so bad. :duh:

bigOdom1

10-24-2007, 12:24 AM

thats the reason you have those little red things in your info. because you post like you have unlimited experience when in actuality you have very little or none.

please note this was not a bash or petty jab it was just a suggestion on how to improve your rep since you seem to struggle

240sx_LE

10-24-2007, 12:40 AM

sleeve and swift coilover springs ftw!

i was wondering if anyone has done that.. anyone?

driftfreek

10-24-2007, 12:58 AM

SochBAT

10-24-2007, 02:10 AM

You can find AGXs for like, 600ish.

I was planning on running GC sleeves with Koni springs, and Swift dampening springs.

One of my buddies had the Koni Special, and swears by it to the death.

Too much damn hearsay nowadays. It is GAY.

KwKouki

10-24-2007, 02:53 AM

LIES!

I have 450's on my rears. Fronts probably could handle a bit more, but I'm on 8611's now :)

I wonder what the DSG car uses? He had off-the-shelf yellows in back last I knew.

In the end: Koni Yellow + GC will outhandle pretty much every JDM coilover out there, and 100% of the pseudo JDM stuff.

im REALY glad there is someone here with proper brain matter. All the coilover sackriders should read a bit on proper suspension setup.

fromxtor

10-24-2007, 07:52 AM

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/fromxtor/100_0723.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/fromxtor/100_0724.jpg
^^ That plus some GC coils, those are my S13 ones before I have the strut towers powder coated.

WilloW

10-24-2007, 08:17 AM

Nice! ^^ Are those just off the shelf Konis, or did you have anything done to them?

Tearlessj

10-24-2007, 09:09 AM

Pics of that set-up on car?

steve shadows

10-24-2007, 09:16 AM

hey steve, how much did u pay for that setup, kyb agx +GC? how stiff are you running? any problems yet? for how long have you had them?

really cheap but Im not going to say because I might sell it soon and go with Konis and a diff spring rate so I might start over ;)

You can find KYB AGX for about 300-400 bucks brand new
Tien Camber Plates 120-175 depending on new or used
GC Sleeves and coil kit + 1 hour of fabrication 400 + tears of joy

If your going to use the AGX shocks use a lower spring rate than I did for street. 375 Front and 300 Rear should be perfect.

fromxtor

10-24-2007, 09:24 AM

Nice! ^^ Are those just off the shelf Konis, or did you have anything done to them?
Off the shelf S13 drop ins
Pics of that set-up on car?
They are not on the car yet, thus the "off the car" pictures. :bigok:

I still need to get around to ordering the GC coils and rear koni shocks. I will be ordering 400/350 springs w/ the GCs.

tougemII

10-24-2007, 09:47 AM

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

wow gtfo. you obviously dont know gc. gc/koni > lots of preset c/o. dampening on the koni shocks are really good. they are dyno dampened to perfection compaired to the tawian crap like d2,f2,ksports. i think if u really wanted to do some damage on the track, get gc/koni. all those preset c/o are for the average driver. if u want good suspension, ud have to pay the price. for the susp itself and the tuning itself. i think the tuning for gc koni is a lot greater then ur average preset c/o.
for me im gonna be riding on motons and gc for my s2k. when i get it.

bigOdom1

10-24-2007, 10:03 AM

wow gtfo. you obviously dont know gc. gc/koni > lots of preset c/o. dampening on the koni shocks are really good. they are dyno dampened to perfection compaired to the tawian crap like d2,f2,ksports. i think if u really wanted to do some damage on the track, get gc/koni. all those preset c/o are for the average driver. if u want good suspension, ud have to pay the price. for the susp itself and the tuning itself. i think the tuning for gc koni is a lot greater then ur average preset c/o.
for me im gonna be riding on motons and gc for my s2k. when i get it.

Back off dude he already admitted he was not in the know concerning GC

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 10:13 AM

8611 Double Adjustable

They are not on the car yet, thus the "off the car" pictures. :bigok:

I still need to get around to ordering the GC coils and rear koni shocks. I will be ordering 400/350 springs w/ the GCs.

So how are you holding the shocks in the housing? I thought the 8611 was meant to work with a gland nut on the top.

What rear shocks are you using? Yellows, like AceinHole? Or something else?

And to the other guy that posted, why would you need ground controls with Motons, that makes no sense at all.

onabulletride

10-24-2007, 01:52 PM

Wow I'm glad i saw this thread, I've been obsessing over what to do with my suspension since I will finally have some money. Sounds like ground control is where its at in terms of performance. +rep is on its way.

McCoy

10-24-2007, 01:59 PM

So how are you holding the shocks in the housing? I thought the 8611 was meant to work with a gland nut on the top.
agreed, I also spy a large bolt on the bottom of his housing holding the strut in from the bottom, this tells me it's an off the shelf koni yellow.

I have a setup almost identical to PJ (aceinhole) with the exception of the 8610 RACE insert, these do require custom housings, especially if you want to gain back some inner tire clearance on the S13 chassis.

For the rear, I'll be reusing the koni yellow with GC hardware for the time being, but will switch over to an 8610 in a custom housing to work with a Z32 rear upright.

Here is what mine looks like currently... still waiting on the rest of my GC order to show up. I'll be running some 550lb springs up front and 400lb springs in the rear.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_8610_prep_03.jpg

Where the glan nut is threaded into the top to secure the insert into the housings.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_8610_prep_02.jpg

fromxtor

10-24-2007, 02:07 PM

Correct, they are held in by a round head hex bit bolt/lock washer. I'll probably be using off the shelf Koni rears also. Cool thing is w/ this setup once you have it finished you can just swap out shocks and springs. S chassis stock struts are dime a dozen. If you eff it up, get another one. ;)

Yoshi

10-24-2007, 02:19 PM

This is friggin great.

Evolution.

Added to the logs of "common 240 lore".

Life is Good.

A year or 2 ago, this thread would've been 3+ pages of me, Drift Freaq, and a few other vets trying to bat down the overwhelming hordes of ignorants who swore GC's were just the same as DropZone or APC or any other eBay-ish manufacturerer.
Arriving late to the thread, and seeing it already pages long, I expected the worst. Overjoyed am I to see so many Zilvians with CORRECT and ACCURATE knowledge on this subject Finally!

I luv u guys :D
I guess I'm just all sunshine and buttercups today :p
Must be cuz this is my Three Thousandth Post :o

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 02:31 PM

Fromxtor, so wait, are you saying there's something at the bottom to hold yours in? Or have you not welded on a threaded section for the gland nut on the top yet?

But anyway, I like the 8611, the 8610 is also good, but the compression curve didn't match the numbers I was looking for the last time I ran the numbers. But I think it was for an 600/500 setup. As for the rear, I'm not sure if the off the shelf yellow is the best option. I mean it will work, don't get me wrong there. But I just wish there was something a little more comparable in price and quality to the 8611 for the rear. But Koni doesn't offer any twin tube, double adjustable shock that would work for the rear for approximately the same price. You could always use a strut insert in the back and it should work fine.

Or I guess there is always the option of having Koni convert a yellow to double adjustable and well they're in there, they could also revalve it. I can't remember what it costs for them to do that, but it wasn't cheap, $400-500 per shock, I think. But in the end, you would still have a pretty nice setup.

As for ground control, just look at what I posted before. If you guys are that into this and want to save some money, you can find sleeves, collars and hats other places and then get Hypercoils springs from a lot of places and it will probably come in a good bit less than ground control. I'm not saying buy the ebay crap, but there are a lot of good quality pieces out there that will work for this.

And whoever said swift springs, why would you waste money on them, when there are better options easily available in the states. Hypercoils is my obvious choice, but even Eibach (who makes ground contols springs) would be better and cheaper than swift.

Tim

fromxtor

10-24-2007, 02:42 PM

^^ Yes the Koni shocks have a threaded area at the base, So the bolt goes right through the strut to the shock. I cant take better pics later.

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 02:44 PM

Right, the yellows do, but I didn't think the 86 series did.

Leetheslacker

10-24-2007, 02:55 PM

i have off the shelf gc's and illumina's on my FC. im no suspension god but its a good setup.

i got the gc's on some blown stock shocks for $150, and it was horrible when i ran it for fun until the illuminas came in.

but once the illuminas went in, it was smooooth.

with camber plates itll go as low as any other coilover in the front, the back is still limited, but its possible to get shorter springs to fix that. ive had it low enough to rub 205/50/16's up front on the frame rail above the tire under normal braking and never bottomed out the shock.

it isnt as stiff as the namebrand one piece coilovers, but its still plenty stiff, and they still work great.
its night and day from stock and handles great when im not sliding, and when i am sliding. car is so much tighter with them, it feels like a whole new car.

yeah i went with it because i got a killer deal, but its still a good setup.

WilloW

10-24-2007, 03:00 PM

^^ Yes the Koni shocks have a threaded area at the base, So the bolt goes right through the strut to the shock. I cant take better pics later.
Please do, I would love to see it.

McCoy

10-24-2007, 03:35 PM

But anyway, I like the 8611, the 8610 is also good, but the compression curve didn't match the numbers I was looking for the last time I ran the numbers. But I think it was for an 600/500 setup.
The 8610's cost me $330 shipped where as the 8611's were around $650 IIRC. Also, Koni just recently revalved the 8610's to closer match the 8611 valving, that was the deciding factor for me to go this route.

As for the rear, I'm not sure if the off the shelf yellow is the best option. I mean it will work, don't get me wrong there. But I just wish there was something a little more comparable in price and quality to the 8611 for the rear. But Koni doesn't offer any twin tube, double adjustable shock that would work for the rear for approximately the same price. You could always use a strut insert in the back and it should work fine.
Agreed, but it's what I currently have laying around and will use it until I can afford another set of 8610's for the rear.

As for ground control, just look at what I posted before. If you guys are that into this and want to save some money, you can find sleeves, collars and hats other places and then get Hypercoils springs from a lot of places and it will probably come in a good bit less than ground control. I'm not saying buy the ebay crap, but there are a lot of good quality pieces out there that will work for this.
My GC kit, I've had since 2001... it was originally purchased for a B13 sentra I had, but never used. Used GC kits can be had for as little as $150 and springs $50 a set if you shop around. I have 8 sets of springs ranging from 300# springs to 550# springs to play with on my S13.

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 03:47 PM

The 8611's shouldn't have been that much more. I think pricing was like 160 list for the 8610 and 250 list for the 8611. It is more money, but more adjustability. And it's not that the compression curve is that off, it's just that it's a little softer than I like, but it's also not as digressive as I like so it ends up being a decent compromise. But the rebound curves are very similar. It's just the 8611 can get me the compression values I wanted because of the extra compression adjustability.

I have no problem with ground control. I just see this progress with people starting to look past JDM stuff and onto other better solutions, but again, they're getting obsessed with brand names. On stuff like shocks it's one thing. And even springs, there are good springs out there and there are bad springs out there and there's a lot in between. That's why I always tell people to run Hypercoils if they're going to run anything. I'm sure Eibach is also decent, but I have heard some things about them not being close enough to the advertised rate and I have used Hypercoils and tested them myself so I trust them. But you know what I'm saying.

McCoy

10-24-2007, 04:11 PM

I just checked my source, the 8611's are $550 a pair shipped. When I stated the 8610's were revalved, they are now more digressive from what I've been told. I agree that the 8611 is worth the extra money and if I didn't limit my budget for the overall build of the car, I'd have them on the garage floor instead of the 8610's. Also, I'm not in any competitive class...

Eibach springs seem to be easy to find, I do agree that the hypercoil springs are nice... I'm sure I have a set of those on my Silkroad coilovers that are on the car currently, the past owner was playing with spring rates before I took over the car.

driftfreek

10-24-2007, 04:19 PM

i just started road racing and i came to the point in which i cannot drive on stock shocks and sportlines anymore. i heard that ground control its a good setup so i decided to start looking into it. so far it seems like its the way to go. ive gotten a lot of info from this thread ( thanks guys) but im confused on some things. for example whats the 8611 and 8610? on the first pic, that black housing, is it part of the koni shock? where can i find info about valving and dyno?

and if i were to order right now a GC, what would the complete list of things be?

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 04:24 PM

Mccoy, hypercoils are just as easy to get, if not easier, than Eibach. HRP, CDOC, Coleman, etc are all good places to get hypercoils.

Driftfreek, the 8610 and 8611 are Koni strut inserts. The koni yellows are the direct replacement, oe-fit dampers that most people use with the ground control sleeves. The 86 series, takes more work to fit, but is a more adjustable damper. They are inserts that go either into your stock strut housing or a custom made housing.

McCoy

10-24-2007, 04:28 PM

Mccoy, hypercoils are just as easy to get, if not easier, than Eibach. HRP, CDOC, Coleman, etc are all good places to get hypercoils.
I meant on the used market, I've picked up 4 sets of eibach springs locally or through the nissan forums recently, I typically don't see hypercoils *used* when I've looked...

The 86 series, takes more work to fit, but is a more adjustable damper. They are inserts that go either into your stock strut housing or a custom made housing.
The housings I posted earlier were built from scratch for the 8610/8611 series.

driftfreek

10-24-2007, 04:32 PM

so are the 86 series more towards track only and not really dd n track sometimes? what is the price difference b/w the 86 series and a normal koni for an s13?

McCoy

10-24-2007, 04:38 PM

^^^ I drive my car daily (only a couple of miles), and aceinhole also drives his car on a somewhat daily basis. The setup (koni/GC) that I going to should be more comfortable on the street than what I'm currently using (Silkroad coilovers).

The housings that I posted earlier cost me $350 for the pair. The 8610-1437 Race inserts cost me $330 for the pair. New GC hardware (sleeves, threaded perch, springs, and tophats) typically go for $400... but as stated earlier can be sourced for less with some shopping. That just leaves camber plates/pillowmounts and any misc pieces to get everything together. Oh yeah, koni yellows for the rear (not sure on the price) or a custom housing with an 86xx insert... which the housings should cost the same as the fronts.

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 05:13 PM

Unless you are running super high spring rates, if you have a properly valved damper, it can be fine on the street. It will probably be a lot less harsh than the JDM stuff that people have become accustomed too. For example, different car, but still, on my brother's supra running my setup with 1000lb/in springs in the front and 600lb/in springs in the back is more comfortable on the street than all of the JDM coilovers I've driven on and it handles better.

driftfreek

10-24-2007, 05:26 PM

is there anywhere where i can see or read how to instll a 8611 koni shocks in a 240? the price of the 8611 are almost the same as the koni sports (single valved), i mind as well get the 8611 where i can adjust my compression and rebound. also, how do you know what spring rate to choose? 470F, 350R or 500F 400R? so far im going by what coilovers have. what can be better for road racing?

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 05:43 PM

What spring rate you want to run depends on a lot of variables. What does the car weigh, where are the roll centers, cg height, what sway bars do you have available, what wheels, what tires, etc? If you're going to go with something like the 8611 it would be worth putting in th effort to get these variables and either figure it out yourself of pay someone to design a good setup for you.

Iceman00

10-24-2007, 05:45 PM

I have GC's on my car, and Love them. 350lb in front, and 400lb in rear running on Tokico Blues. At first, I thought I'd have issues with my struts, because supposedly, they are under-damped. Not the case, and I'm starting to wonder if you guys are Over Damping your cars with the Koni Struts?

Not to thread jack, but they are noisy as hell though.

driftfreek

10-24-2007, 05:56 PM

is there anyone in this forum who can help me with my variables so i can get a great suspension setup?

ManoNegra

10-24-2007, 06:00 PM

Question Wiisass:
Could the shocks and springs be replaced on these bargain-bin coilovers with quality components to give an awesome set-up that can be 2 way height adjustable?

WilloW

10-24-2007, 06:38 PM

Question Wiisass:
Could the shocks and springs be replaced on these bargain-bin coilovers with quality components to give an awesome set-up that can be 2 way height adjustable?
:bigok: Aceinhole already thought of that, but then he went with the custom case for the Koni instead. I would like to see someone go through with it though.

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 06:54 PM

is there anyone in this forum who can help me with my variables so i can get a great suspension setup?

I can and can also, most likely, get you all the pieces you would need to have a good setup. If you're interested shoot me a PM.

Question Wiisass:
Could the shocks and springs be replaced on these bargain-bin coilovers with quality components to give an awesome set-up that can be 2 way height adjustable?

By bargain bin, you're talking, D2, Megan, etc? If so, I don't think it would work. Something like the 8611 is already pretty thick, so putting a threaded housing around it and finding a threaded lower mount that it will work with is going to be hard. But you really don't need 2-way height adjustability if you design the setup properly. If you're making housings for the 8611 then you have some freedom in determining the overall length of the strut assembly. So then you would be able to use the spring perch for minor changes and corner weighting and the car will still sit where you want and you will maintain enough suspension travel. But if you wanted to have a lot of pieces custom made, you could make a double height adjustable setup. But it would take a lot of work and a lot of design. I actually have a setup like this already drawn up and just about ready for manufacture, but decided to try a different route first. Because making all the pieces for my own coilover would get a little expensive just to try. I wish I had the funds to just do it, but that's not the case.

So best bet to get the car to sit the way you want and maintain suspension travel would be to have custom mounting made for the 8611 inserts front and rear. I don't know how much it's going to cost, I also wonder if the rear shock body would be big enough to house the insert. If so, then it might have just gotten easier.

Tim

TheConstipated

10-24-2007, 07:08 PM

Koni+GC are superior to any budget coilover. And you can get them custom valved for any custom rate you like. THE ONLY problem there is with say OTS koni yellows and gc is you can't really drop them that low. There are tricks to make it go lower than "normal" but maximum drop is around 1.5-2" or you will have very little shock travel and be going into "bump" travel.

Koni does make shorter shocks for going lower but it costs more. And I don't believe they make the spss3 for nissans the last time I checked?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, honestly, I don't care much because I'm no pro and can't tell the difference between a set of Kbees or Stances. 750 vs 1100. They ride the same and I save about 300 bucks. Budget coilovers are all basically the same. If you're serious about performance....think about some shortened custom valved konis with some custom spring rates to match the type of driving you're doing. Otherwise....Kbees will you suit you fine =).

veilside180sx

10-24-2007, 07:46 PM

OK....there is some good information and some bad information in this thread.

I made the strut housings for both PJ (aceinhole) and Monty (McCoy), as well as the OEM based version of Fromxter's.

I can thread the housings on the outside to use an adjustable lower mount, but frankly i think it's a waste. It is an additional cost as well, which is the other reason I don't do it. It adds to the bling factor, but not the functionality of the housing. The flanges are welded where most people would wind up putting it anyway, therefore keeping people from screwing it up. (which neither of the two that have posted would)

Fromxter's are a OEM based S13 yellow which will perform great for a street/autox/HPDE based setup. 400-450 is about the max i would run on this setup without revalving. This setup is considerably more cost effective for the average person than the 8611/8610 setup. The returns on the latter is definately worth it, but you have to be willing to part with your money.

These will basically outdo 99% of the stuff to come out JDM land (basically anything any of you will get your hands on=P If KBee's, D2, KSport, Tein, Tanabe suit you...then you really haven't ever driven a real setup imo.

I have to say it's been a looooong time since i've posted here...lol

Wiisass

10-24-2007, 07:54 PM

400-450 is about the max i would run on this setup with revalving.

Based on dyno plots or experience? I was in touch with Koni motorsports people last week and he didn't have plots for them. But if they did at one point and someone has them, I would love to take a look at them.

veilside180sx

10-24-2007, 08:07 PM

Based on dyno plots or experience? I was in touch with Koni motorsports people last week and he didn't have plots for them. But if they did at one point and someone has them, I would love to take a look at them.

I don't have plots for them right now...they died with my old comp, but mostly based on personal experience. (I meant w/o revalving...doh)...fixed it.

If they are revalved they will handle close to a 600 lb spring from what I recall. I very much prefer the curve of the 86** series though.

kouki_s14

10-24-2007, 08:12 PM

those of you who claim Japanese coilovers are better than Koni's READ

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Here's a little clip of the site

Remember this list:

Bilstein
Penske
Koni
Ohlins
Sachs
Dynamic Suspension

Not on this list? Almost certainly crap.

Perhaps I should elaborate a little.

For a while, I was the shock engineer for a race team, and was designing, building, and rebuilding shock packages for customers. A big part of this service was running customer shocks on the dyno to set a baseline for where they were currently at. I dynoed a couple of hundred shocks, representing the spread of almost every shock brand extant.

(All the shock dyno plots on this page came off my dyno.)

Amazingly, save those brands mentioned in that earlier list, this was a non-stop parade of horror, including, but not limited to:

-Adjusters that did absolutely nothing;
-Adjusters that had more crosstalk effect than they had primary effect (ie, a rebound adjuster where 1 click made a 10% change in rebound and a 30% change in compression);
-Adjusters that were nonlinear and exponential;
-Adjusters that peaked in the middle of the adjustment range (in one example, "full hard" was softer than "full soft");
-Shimstacks assembled upside-down;
-Sets of shocks where a front and rear shimstack had been exchanged;
-Shocks valved with forces that were insane (1600 lbs/in @ 3 in/sec was the record);
-Shocks that faded so fast that no two runs were ever alike;
-Shocks with adjusters that varied by 10% on the same shock at the same setting, depending on if you got there by going harder or softer; and
-Shocks that adjusted rebound and compression in lockstep, but had so much compression that backing them down to reasonable levels made rebound way too soft (very common with the Japanese brands like GAB, JIC, Tein, etc)

The only shock brands I worked with that actually did what they said they would do were the shocks on that list - and even then, they had their quirks:

Learn something before you talk

I'm curious to see what this guy thinks of Zeal, anyone have input on Zeals vs the brands on that list?

fromxtor

10-24-2007, 09:18 PM

^^ Thanks Rich for sensing this thread needed you, this is the guy fellas for all your custom needs.

And here is how you do it for those who are hardcore DIYers:
http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/boltstrut.pdf

Aoshi112

10-24-2007, 11:11 PM

i'm surprised we keep having these threads pop up and have the same things said over and over. I must have posted the link to dennis grant's suspension advice more than a few times. Lets just make this a sticky and keep it growing! There's tons of new information that people need to know about properly valved shocks vs jdm coilovers.

Hey Wiiass, you got PM!

SochBAT

10-25-2007, 01:04 AM

soreballz

10-25-2007, 03:00 AM

I wouldn't do it.

spend the cash and do it right the first time with a nice set of coils. a friend of mine learned the hard way.

but theyre expensive. like 700 bux, plus GC 350 bux, you mind as well get coilovers.right?

Don't bother.

Might as well just get a coilover system where the damper and spring are matched to work in unison, and made just for your car. It's not like proper coilovers are that much more money than high quality struts and Ground Controls.

It's not that GC is a horrible system, but what's the advantage? Penny pinching ftl.

I think i seen some ground control's for sale at BIG LOTS ^__^

Dude just get a good set of coilovers.

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.
Morons, all of you.
I wish I wasn't out of rep. lol

Konis/GC are awesome. Great handling, smooth ride, relatively low cost... Hell yeah.

veilside180sx

10-25-2007, 05:50 AM

The gentlemen that stated the 240 has limited shock travel is actually correct, to an extent. They have enough travel with a stock spring, but really don't for a run of the mill lowering spring, as they are too low and too soft to do much of any good.

The stock 240 shock is just under 13" (shock housing itself). All of the Koni's that I put together are shorter than the OEM setup. Fromxter's are 12.5" iirc, and the Koni 86** are 11.75" What that means is that you are gaining back 1.25" of travel or almost 1/2 of what the car had originally. Obviously no one is going to rock the 4x4 look with an aftermarket setup, but it allows you to maintain sufficient shaft travel and safely lower the car.

The Sentra by nature suffers from an almost indentical front end setup, from a limited travel point of view. On the Sentra we use a Maxima insert (which is what I'm currently running on my turbo B14). The Maxima insert installed in a housing is just a hair under 12" installed. This insert would work great for the 240 as well, but it requires that the shock be removed from the car (or at least the camber plate and spring removed) to be adjusted. To adjust you have to bottom out the shaft to the bottom of the shock and rotate counter clockwise (firm) and clockwise (soften) The Maxima insert will handle a 450 lb spring as well. (I have a 440 spring on mine currently)

Now I'm sure someone will bring up about having dual height adjustability offsets needing to lose "shock" travel because you don't have to use the spring perch for height adjustments. The issue isn't necessarily just stock travel, but I have not driven a JDM setup yet that had enough compression travel.

Dual height adjustability is a gimmick to allow cheap manufacturers the ability to sell the same shock over a spread of vehicles. 99% of the time, the shock is not revalved for different vehicles, like most assume, and it is just slapped from one to the next. The damping for most JDM/Taiwanese setups don't have a broad enough curve to handle different spring rates (not mention what they do have is not remotely ideal either). Have you ever wondered why almost every JDM setup comes with the same spring rates...even for different chassis? Most don't even care if it is multi link, mac, or double wishbone setups.

Some pictures of the various setups to help visualize how things are setup:

OEM based setup (Maxima insert)

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/CIMG0334.JPG

Unfinished housing w/o flange installed:

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/CIMG0913.JPG

8611/8610 Housing

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_8610_prep_03.jpg

How low my Sentra currently sits:

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/CIMG0287.JPG

wannabe_drifter

10-25-2007, 09:28 AM

I'd like to know more about valving...

I do not know anything about shock/springs. Not too long ago, I still though coilovers we're the best option for suspension but been reading more and more and I am learning (as stated here alot !!) that a good shock spring combination is way better...

I will probably look to upgrade my suspension eventually, maybe next summer if the wallet permits it !!! So I will now be looking for a shock/spring combo.

Many people on here talk about custom valving, and spring rates (??? : 8kg, 6kg, 7kg) So in short what I am wondering is :

How to match spring rates well with the valving, or basically how to choose a shock/spring combo that are gonna match one another really well looking at spring rate vs shock valving (also considering weight of a stock S13 in my case) ???

Also what should I base my decision on to get a softer or harder spring ??? (still considering I do not have any shock yet)

McCoy

10-25-2007, 09:42 AM

Now just ask veilside180sx REALLY kindly to see if he'd make you a custom strut housing, and you're set.

BTW, what would you charge for one of those? Hypothetically.

Because if you DID make em, people WOULD eat em up. Esp. after this thread.
I posted up the price earlier and am fairly sure he'll have more housings available soon enough.

fromxtor - I just realised those are my old koni yellows that you have... Richard sold them for me and it seems your the new owner :)

fromxtor

10-25-2007, 09:55 AM

^^Well thanks, I hope to be using them soon.

veilside180sx

10-25-2007, 10:03 AM

I posted up the price earlier and am fairly sure he'll have more housings available soon enough.

fromxtor - I just realised those are my old koni yellows that you have... Richard sold them for me and it seems your the new owner :)

True enough on both counts :bigok:

kouki_s14

10-25-2007, 10:36 AM

Now I'm sure someone will bring up about having dual height adjustability offsets needing to lose "shock" travel because you don't have to use the spring perch for height adjustments. The issue isn't necessarily just stock travel, but I have not driven a JDM setup yet that had enough compression travel.

Dual height adjustability is a gimmick to allow cheap manufacturers the ability to sell the same shock over a spread of vehicles. 99% of the time, the shock is not revalved for different vehicles, like most assume, and it is just slapped from one to the next. The damping for most JDM/Taiwanese setups don't have a broad enough curve to handle different spring rates (not mention what they do have is not remotely ideal either). Have you ever wondered why almost every JDM setup comes with the same spring rates...even for different chassis? Most don't even care if it is multi link, mac, or double wishbone setups.

I've been wondering for awhile now, how would you compare Zeals to Koni, Blistein, Ohlin, etc?

PoorMans180SX

10-25-2007, 10:51 AM

Man, I want to ride in someone's car that has this setup. I've only experienced Stance GR+3's that weren't even messed with really.

I've been looking into Topline Aragosta (since you can get custom springs and they provide the customized shock dyno afterward) but every time I read about the Koni setup I hear such great things about it. Oh and I can never go to the Moton site or I just drool.

drift freaq

10-25-2007, 10:55 AM

Ok I stated it before and I will say it again I am going to do a Koni setup.

P.S. driftfreek is not me!

veilside180sx

10-25-2007, 10:56 AM

I've been wondering for awhile now, how would you compare Zeals to Koni, Blistein, Ohlin, etc?

I haven't driven a set of Zeals yet, and I can't say I've been extremely impressed from the shock dyno's i've seen either. They look a little better than most the JDM stuff, but I still wouldn't compare them to Koni, Penske, Bilstein, Moton, or Ohlins.

ManoNegra

10-25-2007, 11:01 AM

Subscribed!
It's just a matter of saving some money now and I'll be bugging some of you guys. ;)
Dave, can I have a ride in the Ohlins equipped car? Pretty please?

PoorMans180SX

10-25-2007, 12:28 PM

I've been wondering for awhile now, how would you compare Zeals to Koni, Blistein, Ohlin, etc?

I've asked the guy who answers the e-mails at SPL, and he says, from personal experience, that the Topline damping is better than Zeal's.

So, if anything, get Topline if you want a coilover. I'm still debating back and forth between them and the Koni setup, but I'd still eventually like to have Motons on my car.

McCoy

10-25-2007, 12:33 PM

I've been wondering for awhile now, how would you compare Zeals to Koni, Blistein, Ohlin, etc?
The only person that I know who has some good experience with Zeals is my coworker and good friend that owns an STI. He's been through 4 different setups on his car, started with JIC IIRC, went back to the stock struts with GC hardware, then onto Zeals, and finally Ohlins.

I've autocrossed his car on several occassions, rode and drove his car with all 4 of these setups and have my own opinions, which should be take with a grain of salt of course. I know it's not a S-chassis, so take it as you will...

Ohlins - He's been running these for the past 1.5 years and has about 6K track miles on them. Riding in the car you can hardly even tell your on 7K/6K springs and it eats up the biggest bumps and railroad tracks without the need of a kidney belt or a mouth piece. I don't think he'll ever change from this setup... of course this was not cheap by any standard.

Zeals - these killed the JIC's and stock struts, but seemed to have more compression built into them than Brian liked. On the track, coming out of lower speed corners at full boost his car would actually start oscillating... you could feel it as the passanger and see it from the side of the track. On the road it was stiffer than he wanted for the several long drives he takes with the car.

Stock struts/GC hardware - Was fine, but the struts would start to fail on track after 15 minutes... they just weren't up to the task of track duty with stiffer springs.

JIC - crap... bouncing headlights going down the road, that's all I need to say about them.

AceInHole

10-25-2007, 01:31 PM

vw_nissan

10-25-2007, 04:59 PM

(Crappy pic:)
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/DSC_6284.jpg
(

Is that your new s14?

What camber plate/strut mounts are you using for the fronts and rears? I have a set of K-sport right now (crap shocks), but thinking if I could use the camber plates and rear strut mounts from these for a custom Koni setup.

AceInHole

10-25-2007, 06:12 PM

Is that your new s14?
Yup, that's the "new" car. I bought it cheap with some minor rust and a lot of body damage, but I can deal with some dings since the rears will get over-fendered this time around.

What camber plate/strut mounts are you using for the fronts and rears? I have a set of K-sport right now (crap shocks), but thinking if I could use the camber plates and rear strut mounts from these for a custom Koni setup.

That's exactly what I did. My upper mounts are off my old D2 setup (like 4 years old and still not seized!!!). The fronts used a 16 to 14mm spacer, and in back I have the standard Koni, so it was a 12 - 10mm spacer IIRC. I'll have to drill out the bushings and use a 9/16" or 14mm ID pipe insert on the upper mount when I convert to 8611's in back.

vw_nissan

10-25-2007, 06:24 PM

That's exactly what I did. My upper mounts are off my old D2 setup (like 4 years old and still not seized!!!). The fronts used a 16 to 14mm spacer, and in back I have the standard Koni, so it was a 12 - 10mm spacer IIRC. I'll have to drill out the bushings and use a 9/16" or 14mm ID pipe insert on the upper mount when I convert to 8611's in back.

What did you mean the front uses 16 to 14mm spacer? Possible to show which part you are referring to?

Thanks.

McCoy

10-25-2007, 08:06 PM

What did you mean the front uses 16 to 14mm spacer? Possible to show which part you are referring to?

Thanks.
I'm pretty sure PJ's referring to the bearing spacers he had to use... they are a 14mm I.D. (the thickness of the 86xx threaded shaft) to 16mm O.D. (I.D. of the bearing in his D2 camber plates) metal sleeve. The same goes for the rear...

vw_nissan

10-25-2007, 09:26 PM

ic...thanks.

SochBAT

10-25-2007, 10:19 PM

veilside, welcome to the Blue!

WOOOOT!

frosty_the_iceman

10-25-2007, 11:51 PM

Hello.

First off Hi, I browse this site a lot but post very little, just learning and keeping a low profile until I have some wisdom of my own to share. That being said, here's the noob question.

Can I take a KYB AGX replacement strut (as in the whole strut assembly, not just an insert) and cut off the large conical section of the spring perch? Seems to me that the GC sleeve would then sit nicely on the remaining lip.

See the pictures in http://cgi.ebay.ca/KYB-AGX-Shocks-Struts-Nissan-240SX-95-98_W0QQitemZ230184682483QQihZ013QQcategoryZ33590QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
for clarification, the 2nd one down gives the best view (for me).

Thanks in advance.

drift freaq

10-25-2007, 11:54 PM

Subscribed!
It's just a matter of saving some money now and I'll be bugging some of you guys. ;)
Dave, can I have a ride in the Ohlins equipped car? Pretty please?

Yes you can when the car comes back from New Mexico. LOL I loaned it out to a customer while putting the finishing touches on his car. Anyways my overall impressions of the front Ohlins is they rock. The rears are stiffer than holy hell. Of course I reset the fronts 10 clicks in. I did not adust the rears because they required a allen head and I was in a hurry to throw them in. Once the car is back I will reset the rears. The other thing is I have to run the numbers on the Apex springs as I have no Idea what spring rate they are. Yes this is a used setup from Japan.

Welcome to the blue Veilside.

turtl631

10-26-2007, 07:46 AM

I want some Konis now too. I feel like the damping on set of Stance coilovers is mediocre. Grip just doesn't seem to be there compared to some cars I've been in with similar tires but nice DA Konis, etc. It's also kind of skittery over bumps, and I'd really like to gain some more compliance for rough tracks, bombing over gator strips, etc.

So nobody is running an 86 series in the rear yet? What is the problem, no off the shelf dampers with the proper length?

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 09:06 AM

Tsk Tsk...I just have to finish welding up the S13/S14 rears. I have everything made to use either 8610 or 8611's back there. The downside is that you have to run a Z32 spindle since that's all i've made brackets for thus far. (I know I know...heaven forbid you drop 8 lbs in the rear)

Still needs to be have the sleeve flange welded on and powdercoated, but here's a pic. Shorter=S13 Longer=S14

http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/CIMG1287.preview.JPG

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 09:19 AM

Here's another picture of Fromxter's setup to help visualize what the insert looks like next to the stock shortened housing.

http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/CIMG1126.preview.JPG

turtl631

10-26-2007, 11:42 AM

This is bad, the wheels are turning now and I'm tempted to do this next summer. If I sell my Stances I can recoup a decent amount of cash I imagine.

Since the 8610 are just SA, how is the compression on them? I'm assuming its going to be pretty good for the target range of spring rates we're talking about here, say 350-650? The extra $450 for the 8611s seems like a lot to pay since frankly, I'm not skilled enough at this point to intelligently adjust DA dampers.

Anyone want to throw out a guess as to decent spring rates for a S14 running sticky street tires or longer lasting R comps with a front progress bar, stock rear, bolt in 4 pt roll bar, and no significant weight reduction (full interior, radio, etc.)?

AceInHole

10-26-2007, 11:59 AM

Anyone want to throw out a guess as to decent spring rates for a S14 running sticky street tires or longer lasting R comps with a front progress bar, stock rear, bolt in 4 pt roll bar, and no significant weight reduction (full interior, radio, etc.)?

450F 375R would probably be a good start if you street drive it a lot, as it's slightly stiffer than the 8/6 rates that come on most coilovers. Otherwise, with minimal street driving, the 600/450 I'm running now works well (not sure if they'll be as good with 8610's, though). In either case, I'd ditch the rear swaybar.

steve shadows

10-26-2007, 12:00 PM

I ditched, at 390-440 whp

it helps on exit.

mayco_86

10-26-2007, 12:10 PM

just go coilovers

turtl631

10-26-2007, 01:22 PM

I already have Stance coilovers, not too thrilled with them at this point.

I've heard that ditching the rear sway is a good idea many times now- I've got to try that.

Thanks for the advice on rates. I don't have a second car, but I walk to school so I only drive intermittently. Still, with Chicago streets being akin to the surface of the moon, I might be better off with lower rates than those ideal for a smooth track. If I change to this setup I'll probably get a few extra sets of springs to mess with too. Do the front and rear springs have different lengths with the 8610 setup?

McCoy

10-26-2007, 01:32 PM

^^^ For the front springs, your going to use a 6-7" (length) spring. The rears you can get away with a 7-8" length spring, well I'm not sure if there is a difference between the S13 and S14 on that one... PJ can best answer the S14 one.

turtl631

10-26-2007, 01:40 PM

Imprezive

10-26-2007, 01:51 PM

It all depends on your price range. Ground Control can set you up with a decent koni/eibach kit, they even offer some custom valved koni's for certain applications.

I would not recommend buying their coil-over conversion kit if you plan on participating in any real type of motor sports. The coil over conversion kits are good if you simply want to have a lower car and slightly stiffer ride. Of course some cars do not respond as well lowering, especially if the hardware doesn't permit usage of the threaded sleeves Ground Control uses.

If you haven't yet, give them a call and see what they can offer you. Tell them what application you will be using the car for and they will come up with a set-up for you.

McCoy

10-26-2007, 01:52 PM

I think rear S14 dampers are longer, as seen in the pics of Veilside180SX's rear housings for the S13 and S14. No idea if that would affect spring length though. I'd love it if I could just run 7" springs all around, it would be much easier to experiment with rates that way.
PJ's picture that he posted was a 6" spring, but you still have at least 1" below that to add a 7" spring.

The S14 housings might be longer, but I think the collar (for where the sleeve will sit) will be in the same location, in relation to the top of the housing. Richard would probably know best since he's building my set of rear housings also ;)

AceInHole

10-26-2007, 03:36 PM

It all depends on your price range. Ground Control can set you up with a decent koni/eibach kit, they even offer some custom valved koni's for certain applications.

I would not recommend buying their coil-over conversion kit if you plan on participating in any real type of motor sports.

OMG NOBODY TOLDED ME THIS!!!!! WHAT HAS I DONE! Real motorsports??!?!?!? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Yeah.... I haven't heard of many people having bad experiences with GC's on decent shocks, unless their complaint was they couldn't touch pavement with their frame rails. Or maybe I'm just lucky and my car pulls 1.2g's on cold tires by chance? :coolugh:

McCoy

10-26-2007, 04:19 PM

I would not recommend buying their coil-over conversion kit if you plan on participating in any real type of motor sports. The coil over conversion kits are good if you simply want to have a lower car and slightly stiffer ride. Of course some cars do not respond as well lowering, especially if the hardware doesn't permit usage of the threaded sleeves Ground Control uses.

And what experience do you have to make this statement?!?

I've been using the GC hardware (coil-over conversion kit as you call it) for the past 4 years on a few different sentra's, have completed nearly 15K track miles, and many many autocrosses, along with daily useage. Oh yeah, the GC hardware was used when I got it and is still in use with the current owner.

So, do please explain...

sideview_180sx

10-26-2007, 04:38 PM

anyone look into the KW motorsports version?? I know they offer 2 styles.

I've seen JRZ in used before. But that's $$$

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 06:06 PM

The S14 housings might be longer, but I think the collar (for where the sleeve will sit) will be in the same location, in relation to the top of the housing. Richard would probably know best since he's building my set of rear housings also ;)

Spot on Monty, the housing is longer but the spring perch is in the same location on the tube. Only the strut itself is longer, but the spring would be the same length between them.

Aoshi112

10-26-2007, 06:50 PM

anyone look into the KW motorsports version?? I know they offer 2 styles.

I've seen JRZ in used before. But that's $$$

I only saw the KW Variant 3s available for the s13...

Oh yea hey Veilside180sx, are your housings solely for Koni 8611's and 8610s or can i put in a set of bilsteins in em?

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 07:02 PM

I have never tried to use a set of Bilstein dampers because most lack external adjusters for the damping.

PM me the specs on what you have and i'll let you know though.

AceInHole

10-26-2007, 07:07 PM

I only saw the KW Variant 3s available for the s13...
I have the feeling KW uses a Koni insert in their shocks, although that's prety much solely based on the rebound adjuster looking a lot like the Koni tab.

Oh yea hey Veilside180sx, are your housings solely for Koni 8611's and 8610s or can i put in a set of bilsteins in em?
Bilstein fronts are a bottom-bolt insert type, and won't work with the gland nut used on the Koni housings. I'm sure he could make a set useable with Bilstein strut inserts, but for the rear it'd probably be better to get a set of bolt-on Bilsteins, or get some take-aparts that will fit.

Bilsteins are insanely upgradeable, too. If Wiisaas had an s-chassis Bilstein setup earlier I might've gone that route (with Penske or Bilstein resevoirs), but the modular design along with the ease of replacement with the Koni's being a standard part keeps me happy, along with them being double-adjustables from the get-go (Bilsteins are non-adjustable normally).

Eventually I'll upgrade to something even more digressive than the Koni 86's. It'd be cool if they released performance FSD inserts (like something based on their F1 stuff), but I'll probably end up with Motons, or Ohlins if they aren't much more (than Motons, at least).

DOOK

10-26-2007, 07:13 PM

well damn it... coilovers may be getting tossed for this guy... I'm a grip minded driver and I doubt the D2s are gonna satisfy me, especially since on the shakedown run it jarred my balls loose... subscribed...

Aoshi112

10-26-2007, 07:14 PM

I have the feeling KW uses a Koni insert in their shocks, although that's prety much solely based on the rebound adjuster looking a lot like the Koni tab.

Bilstein fronts are a bottom-bolt insert type, and won't work with the gland nut used on the Koni housings. I'm sure he could make a set useable with Bilstein strut inserts, but for the rear it'd probably be better to get a set of bolt-on Bilsteins, or get some take-aparts that will fit.

Bilsteins are insanely upgradeable, too. If Wiisaas had an s-chassis Bilstein setup earlier I might've gone that route (with Penske or Bilstein resevoirs), but the modular design along with the ease of replacement with the Koni's being a standard part keeps me happy, along with them being double-adjustables from the get-go (Bilsteins are non-adjustable normally).

Eventually I'll upgrade to something even more digressive than the Koni 86's. It'd be cool if they released performance FSD inserts (like something based on their F1 stuff), but I'll probably end up with Motons, or Ohlins if they aren't much more (than Motons, at least).

I was thinking of doing the whole Koni 8611 setup just like Jason Rhoades car but man it was a lil more than what i wanted to spend. I was able to pick up a set of used bilsteins recently and was just wondering if i can do something similar to my friend Drew who did this http://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446817

Motons, Ohlins and all those are just overkill for what i want. I'm just a weekend road racer but i didn't want to buy into all those jdm coilover setups.

Veilside180sx, you got a pm.

-Jason

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 08:57 PM

Jason Rhodes ran 2817's, which are twice what the 8611 cost.

Aoshi112

10-26-2007, 09:02 PM

oop nevermind. I thought I remember hearing from Propartsusa that he ran 8611s. Guess not!

D1GP

10-26-2007, 10:14 PM

I have the feeling KW uses a Koni insert in their shocks, although that's prety much solely based on the rebound adjuster looking a lot like the Koni tab.

Per a KW rep on Nasioc,

"KW is proud to use Koni as a partner on a small number of Variant 2 applications in our ever-growing lineup of coilovers. These specially built, KW Tuned and valved, Koni Built dampers provide the perfect ride adjustable solution for their respective applications. "

so it would not surprise me that they may have koni dampers in the variant 3 but i cannot say for sure.

is there any build-it-yourself solutions that would allow me to lower the front close to 2.5" and rear close to 2" (about what the KW V3 would do)? i want a hybrid between lowering and handling IF POSSIBLE. if so, i might as well save some money by not going with the V3.

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 10:45 PM

Koni doesn't offer an external res. insert, so any of the external ones are not Koni. i would imagine they must use Bilstein for those inserts...

vw_nissan

10-26-2007, 10:48 PM

veilside180sx, you have PM

D1GP

10-26-2007, 10:53 PM

Koni doesn't offer an external res. insert, so any of the external ones are not Koni. i would imagine they must use Bilstein for those inserts...

93SECoupe on here did not receive an external reservoir with his V3 and neither did some of the folks on Nasioc. so i'm thinking they made 2 different V3s...

SR240DET

10-26-2007, 11:55 PM

Koni 8611's are awesome. They're pretty much as good as it gets untill Moton/ Ohlins/ Koni 28's.

Spring perches set here:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/suspensions/DSC_6276.jpg

do you think its possible the spring can/will come off the top hat like that pic under any kind of normal driving condition?

veilside180sx

10-26-2007, 11:58 PM

If mine ever have...i can't tell.

The only time mine seperate like that is when it's jacked up off the ground.

sideview_180sx

10-27-2007, 12:01 AM

on those who picked up the V3 was it the standard one or the motorsports version. Some of the guys in FormulaD are using KW V3 and they have external resevoirs.

SR240DET

10-27-2007, 12:11 AM

If mine ever have...i can't tell.

The only time mine seperate like that is when it's jacked up off the ground.

when you make a custom setup do you make a flange for the top of the threaded sleeve as well?

veilside180sx

10-27-2007, 12:13 AM

It's not necessary, the o-rings between the sleeve and the strut tube hold it in place (they also keep it from rotating). In addition the sleeve will not slip over the top of the gland nut, so either way it is not going anywhere.

Tearlessj

10-27-2007, 03:23 AM

I wish GC made top-hats for 240's.

jmauld

10-27-2007, 05:35 AM

I wish GC made top-hats for 240's.I have the Techno Toy Tuning top-hats and they seem to take up the least space (shock travel) of any of the other camber plates that I've seen in person. The only negative I have with the T3 hats is the cheap bolts that are included. Just replace them with stronger ones before installing.

AceInHole

10-27-2007, 05:47 AM

Per a KW rep on Nasioc,

"KW is proud to use Koni as a partner on a small number of Variant 2 applications in our ever-growing lineup of coilovers. These specially built, KW Tuned and valved, Koni Built dampers provide the perfect ride adjustable solution for their respective applications. "

so it would not surprise me that they may have koni dampers in the variant 3 but i cannot say for sure.

That seems like good news. I took a closer look at some pics of supposed V3's and they did not have external res. The rears also didn't have the same shaft size as the front, so I'm assuming they're a variant of the 3011 or something.

is there any build-it-yourself solutions that would allow me to lower the front close to 2.5" and rear close to 2" (about what the KW V3 would do)? i want a hybrid between lowering and handling IF POSSIBLE. if so, i might as well save some money by not going with the V3.
The housings that Veilside180sx makes could potentially go as low as any coilovers on the market.

do you think its possible the spring can/will come off the top hat like that pic under any kind of normal driving condition?
The Konis will pretty much retain the spring from damping force alone. The off-the-shelf yellows on full stiff take forever to return to full length if left alone, and the 8611's I have can hold up the wheel and tire when jacking the car up (untill you actually push it down). Basically, the springs won't unseat unless you're airborne for a few seconds.

a_ahmed

10-27-2007, 06:51 AM

man this thread rocks... :)

Wiisass

10-27-2007, 04:11 PM

Been busy the past couple days, so get ready for a long one. Sorry, but it will be full of good information.

I'd like to know more about valving...

I do not know anything about shock/springs. Not too long ago, I still though coilovers we're the best option for suspension but been reading more and more and I am learning (as stated here alot !!) that a good shock spring combination is way better...

I will probably look to upgrade my suspension eventually, maybe next summer if the wallet permits it !!! So I will now be looking for a shock/spring combo.

Many people on here talk about custom valving, and spring rates (??? : 8kg, 6kg, 7kg) So in short what I am wondering is :

How to match spring rates well with the valving, or basically how to choose a shock/spring combo that are gonna match one another really well looking at spring rate vs shock valving (also considering weight of a stock S13 in my case) ???

Also what should I base my decision on to get a softer or harder spring ??? (still considering I do not have any shock yet)

It's not so much that a good shock/spring setup versus a coilover. It's all just a spring and a damper. The problem is that most JDM coilovers have sub par damping. I wish there was a good JDM or any market coilover that had decent valving and wasn't a ridiculous price. It's too bad that these companies can't pull it off for some reason or another.

But there's a lot, or there should be a lot, that goes into selecting a spring rate. It has to do with sprung weight, unsprung weight, geometry, intended use, tires, wheels, power, sway bars, cg height, wheelbase, etc. It's a lot and it's not the easiest to explain. If you really want to figure it out on your own, start studying spring-mass-damper vibrations models and natural frequencies and all of that fun stuff. But even after that, it's a lot more complicated, it depends on what natural frequency range you want to be in, the ratio of front to rear, and then you have to look at lateral loading and roll and weight transfer and understeer/oversteer balance and it's just a lot. Usually you can pick a good starting point and then fine tune from there.

After you get the spring rates, then you look at the dampers. It depends what damper you're going to use, how adjustable, are they revalvable, do you have dyno plots, depending on the answers to all of these, you can pick a damper. If it's revalveable then you can just revalve it to suit your spring rate and mass. If it's not, but it's adjustable enough and consistent, then you can just adjust until you get it right. Or if you have dyno plots, you can calculate a range of springs that will work, then compare it to your other numbers, and then pick the best compromise.

I know, it sounds complicated and a lot of people won't go through all this trouble and they will eventually get to where they want to be. But I like to run all the numbers, do all the calcs, so then I know what to expect and since i have verified the model I use, I know it is relatively accurate as long as any assumptions I had to make were accurate.

The only person that I know who has some good experience with Zeals is my coworker and good friend that owns an STI. He's been through 4 different setups on his car, started with JIC IIRC, went back to the stock struts with GC hardware, then onto Zeals, and finally Ohlins.

I've autocrossed his car on several occassions, rode and drove his car with all 4 of these setups and have my own opinions, which should be take with a grain of salt of course. I know it's not a S-chassis, so take it as you will...

Ohlins - He's been running these for the past 1.5 years and has about 6K track miles on them. Riding in the car you can hardly even tell your on 7K/6K springs and it eats up the biggest bumps and railroad tracks without the need of a kidney belt or a mouth piece. I don't think he'll ever change from this setup... of course this was not cheap by any standard.

Zeals - these killed the JIC's and stock struts, but seemed to have more compression built into them than Brian liked. On the track, coming out of lower speed corners at full boost his car would actually start oscillating... you could feel it as the passanger and see it from the side of the track. On the road it was stiffer than he wanted for the several long drives he takes with the car.

Stock struts/GC hardware - Was fine, but the struts would start to fail on track after 15 minutes... they just weren't up to the task of track duty with stiffer springs.

JIC - crap... bouncing headlights going down the road, that's all I need to say about them.

Good feedback, that's the kind of stuff I like to hear.

Koni 8611's are awesome. They're pretty much as good as it gets untill Moton/ Ohlins/ Koni 28's.

You forgot Bilstein.

Tsk Tsk...I just have to finish welding up the S13/S14 rears. I have everything made to use either 8610 or 8611's back there. The downside is that you have to run a Z32 spindle since that's all i've made brackets for thus far. (I know I know...heaven forbid you drop 8 lbs in the rear)

Still needs to be have the sleeve flange welded on and powdercoated, but here's a pic. Shorter=S13 Longer=S14

http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/CIMG1287.preview.JPG

Nice, they look like they're coming out good. What are your plans for accessing the adjuster on the bottom of the 8611? Unbolt the lower and adjust? Or develop a sweet right angle screw driver that can tuck in there to adjust them.

450F 375R would probably be a good start if you street drive it a lot, as it's slightly stiffer than the 8/6 rates that come on most coilovers. Otherwise, with minimal street driving, the 600/450 I'm running now works well (not sure if they'll be as good with 8610's, though). In either case, I'd ditch the rear swaybar.

Do you really think ditching the rear sway bar is helping? Just based on the numbers, the rear bar is already pretty soft, especially compared to the front. Is this going back to the lifting the rear wheel issue? Or do you really feel it helps put power down? Could is also have to do with a less rigid chassis because of no cage? And chassis flex is messing with rear loading coming out of the turn? Have you noticed any steady-state understeer issues since removing it? Or is that the way you would rather have the car? More biased towards understeer, a little past neutral? I'm sure we've talked about all of this before, but just for everyone else and the other people that have removed the rear sway.

I already have Stance coilovers, not too thrilled with them at this point.

I've heard that ditching the rear sway is a good idea many times now- I've got to try that.

Thanks for the advice on rates. I don't have a second car, but I walk to school so I only drive intermittently. Still, with Chicago streets being akin to the surface of the moon, I might be better off with lower rates than those ideal for a smooth track. If I change to this setup I'll probably get a few extra sets of springs to mess with too. Do the front and rear springs have different lengths with the 8610 setup?

With a good damper, you will be able to get away with much higher spring rates and still have a comfortable ride. Ride quality has a lot more to do with the high speed compression damping than it does with the spring rate. But then again, it also seems that people describe harshness or ride quality issues differently and their feedback might not be completely accurate of what is causing what they're feeling. Not directed at you, just people in general.

It all depends on your price range. Ground Control can set you up with a decent koni/eibach kit, they even offer some custom valved koni's for certain applications.

I would not recommend buying their coil-over conversion kit if you plan on participating in any real type of motor sports. The coil over conversion kits are good if you simply want to have a lower car and slightly stiffer ride. Of course some cars do not respond as well lowering, especially if the hardware doesn't permit usage of the threaded sleeves Ground Control uses.

If you haven't yet, give them a call and see what they can offer you. Tell them what application you will be using the car for and they will come up with a set-up for you.

You're missing the point of everything it seems. Everything that we're talking about, whether it be "coilovers", a ground control/koni setup, spring sleeves on custom housings, whatever, it's all just a spring and damper combination. And if put together correctly, there is no structural difference between a spring sleeve and a threaded body damper. And as the posts after your have proved, there are several people on here doing real motorsports with a setup like that and even more people with other cars doing other motorsports with spring sleeves.

anyone look into the KW motorsports version?? I know they offer 2 styles.

I've seen JRZ in used before. But that's $$$

I am supposed to be getting my hands on a set of the motorsports stuff soon. It was actually supposed to be about a month ago, but now I don't know when it will happen. It would be nice if they would arrive soon, after that I will have a lot of feedback on how they are. This is going to be the same setup that the DA guys are running on Hampshaa's car.

Bilstein fronts are a bottom-bolt insert type, and won't work with the gland nut used on the Koni housings. I'm sure he could make a set useable with Bilstein strut inserts, but for the rear it'd probably be better to get a set of bolt-on Bilsteins, or get some take-aparts that will fit.

Bilsteins are insanely upgradeable, too. If Wiisaas had an s-chassis Bilstein setup earlier I might've gone that route (with Penske or Bilstein resevoirs), but the modular design along with the ease of replacement with the Koni's being a standard part keeps me happy, along with them being double-adjustables from the get-go (Bilsteins are non-adjustable normally).

Eventually I'll upgrade to something even more digressive than the Koni 86's. It'd be cool if they released performance FSD inserts (like something based on their F1 stuff), but I'll probably end up with Motons, or Ohlins if they aren't much more (than Motons, at least).

The Bilsteins should fit in a housing for the 86series dampers. You're looking at a 1.81" OD for the Bilstein 36mm inserts. So it's a little bigger and may fit depending on the inside diameter of the tubes.

I wish I had that Bilstein setup done earlier because then I would have more time to test it. But things should be getting dynoed next week, so at least I'll have some sweet dyno plots and know what I'm starting with.

We never finished that FSD discussion we started in another thread like this. I'm still not sure if it's as cool as it sounds, I mean it sounds pretty good and if they're using it on F1 cars, it probably does something. But then again, F1 is all about aero right now, but I do have a couple articles about FSD and they kind of tell you how it works. I remember thinking it was kind of just like a blow off valve for the damping, but most blow off valves are on the piston, but the FSD is part of the foot valve. So it seems like it's a blow off valve but it's for the change in volume in the shock due to the shaft coming in. So the amount it opens is based on the entry of the shaft.

Jason Rhodes ran 2817's, which are twice what the 8611 cost.

Probably more like 3x, 259 list versus 750 list. At least the last time I checked.

Koni doesn't offer an external res. insert, so any of the external ones are not Koni. i would imagine they must use Bilstein for those inserts...

Bilstein hasn't really offered any external reservoirs until this year. Besides the ones they use on some offroad cars which I don't think are adjustable for anything other than gas pressure. So I don't know what they're using. It could be something they made on their own. Or someone else's. I don't know, but I doubt it's Bilstein.

The Konis will pretty much retain the spring from damping force alone. The off-the-shelf yellows on full stiff take forever to return to full length if left alone, and the 8611's I have can hold up the wheel and tire when jacking the car up (untill you actually push it down). Basically, the springs won't unseat unless you're airborne for a few seconds.

They also have no gas charge, correct? At least I don't think they do, which is the reason they warn you not to compress them when they're on their side or upside down. So you won't introduce the air that is in the outer of the tubes into the inner tube.

But even if they did extend quicker or it was a gas charged shock will which extend quicker, you could just use a help spring which will keep things connected.

Alright, I think that's it. Hopefully it wasn't too much.

Tim

veilside180sx

10-27-2007, 04:35 PM

Good feedback, that's the kind of stuff I like to hear.

Nice, they look like they're coming out good. What are your plans for accessing the adjuster on the bottom of the 8611? Unbolt the lower and adjust? Or develop a sweet right angle screw driver that can tuck in there to adjust them.

I'll use a right angle flat head. There should be plenty of room, or you can just as easily undo one bolt to adjust it since it's not like a hub flange that you have to get positioned "just right".

With a good damper, you will be able to get away with much higher spring rates and still have a comfortable ride. Ride quality has a lot more to do with the high speed compression damping than it does with the spring rate. But then again, it also seems that people describe harshness or ride quality issues differently and their feedback might not be completely accurate of what is causing what they're feeling. Not directed at you, just people in general.

Agreed, a good damper goes a long ways towards making motorsports spring rates drivable on the street. My current springs on my Sentra are 440/400 and with a JDM setup would be kidney killers, instead you just soak it up and keep going almost like a stock setup would.

You're missing the point of everything it seems. Everything that we're talking about, whether it be "coilovers", a ground control/koni setup, spring sleeves on custom housings, whatever, it's all just a spring and damper combination. And if put together correctly, there is no structural difference between a spring sleeve and a threaded body damper. And as the posts after your have proved, there are several people on here doing real motorsports with a setup like that and even more people with other cars doing other motorsports with spring sleeves.

I'll leave that one alone....:bigok:

The Bilsteins should fit in a housing for the 86series dampers. You're looking at a 1.81" OD for the Bilstein 36mm inserts. So it's a little bigger and may fit depending on the inside diameter of the tubes.

I wish I had that Bilstein setup done earlier because then I would have more time to test it. But things should be getting dynoed next week, so at least I'll have some sweet dyno plots and know what I'm starting with.

Those Bilsteins OD would fit in my housings just fine, assuming they weren't threaded and were cut an extra inch longer before assembly.

Probably more like 3x, 259 list versus 750 list. At least the last time I checked.

The 2817 are about $1250/ea + hub flanges and the $8611 comes out to about 259+housing+gland nut+sleeve. After all those changes they come out to a little over twice as much.

Bilstein hasn't really offered any external reservoirs until this year. Besides the ones they use on some offroad cars which I don't think are adjustable for anything other than gas pressure. So I don't know what they're using. It could be something they made on their own. Or someone else's. I don't know, but I doubt it's Bilstein.

That's good to know, but you can add ext. res. to most of their dampers from my understanding right?

They also have no gas charge, correct? At least I don't think they do, which is the reason they warn you not to compress them when they're on their side or upside down. So you won't introduce the air that is in the outer of the tubes into the inner tube.

But even if they did extend quicker or it was a gas charged shock will which extend quicker, you could just use a help spring which will keep things connected.

Your not really supposed to flip any twin tube damper over really. Which is why they aren't supposed to be rotated past 45 degree's while in use.

Tim

I guess it didn't like me embedding all of my comments in your quote, so this is to get it to let me post it.=)

Wiisass

10-27-2007, 05:23 PM

I'll use a right angle flat head. There should be plenty of room, or you can just as easily undo one bolt to adjust it since it's not like a hub flange that you have to get positioned "just right".

Sounds good, I just couldn't tell if there was much room in there. I was trying to picture the Z32 arm. Unbolting the shock isn't bad, I mean if you really wanted to, you could probably just use a shear pin with a cotter pin on the end. Then you just pull the cotter pin, pull out the pin, adjust and throw it back together without having to unbolt anything. And it would be perfectly safe.

Those Bilsteins OD would fit in my housings just fine, assuming they weren't threaded and were cut an extra inch longer before assembly.

Nice, maybe I will be getting in touch with you for one of those inserts. What's the depth on them? You said 11.75" right?

The 2817 are about $1250/ea + hub flanges and the $8611 comes out to about 259+housing+gland nut+sleeve. After all those changes they come out to a little over twice as much.

Oh ok, I didn't even consider the rest of it.

That's good to know, but you can add ext. res. to most of their dampers from my understanding right?

With any of their take aparts, it's as easy as unthreading the schraeder valve and threding in the line to the external reservoir then refilling and you're good to go. I mean you should adjust compression valving after that. For a lot of the Bilstein stuff I'm doing, I'm adding schraeder valves to the OE replacement dampers, revalving them and doing all that fun stuff, so I could add an external reservoir to those as well. So anything with a bung on it that you can thread an adapter or the actual line could work.

Tim

Aoshi112

10-27-2007, 11:55 PM

I'm so excited that we're actually discussing proper suspension setups finally for our cars! Lots of great info here.

Tim, I can't wait to get my Bilsteins overhauled by you and hit the track. I'll try to get as much feedback as possible with a real driver behind the wheel as I have little experience road racing. I'll be throwing Matt aka turbomx5 on supraforums behind the wheel! heh

To others interested, you CAN find used Bilsteins from japan as i did most recently! Took me more than 5 months of searching though.

-Jason

jmauld

10-28-2007, 05:43 AM

To others interested, you CAN find used Bilsteins from japan as i did most recently! Took me more than 5 months of searching though.

-Jason

FWIW, Bilstein will revalve all 4 shocks for around $275. They did a good job at getting the valving to match the rates that I'm using, and they did it with a 3 week turn around time.

jmauld

10-28-2007, 06:20 AM

here's a picture of how I lowered mine in the stock housing. This isn't complete because I don't have the spring perch sitting that low.

http://lh3.google.com/jmauld/RyR5jCLa-uI/AAAAAAAAACI/yHcB99nQXjI/s400/DSCN0848.JPG (http://picasaweb.google.com/jmauld/Bilsteins/photo#5126355918641625826)

Aoshi112

10-28-2007, 10:58 AM

FWIW, Bilstein will revalve all 4 shocks for around $275. They did a good job at getting the valving to match the rates that I'm using, and they did it with a 3 week turn around time.

Yea that's the main reason why I wanted to go with Bilsteins. But i'm going to have Tim do some special work to mine:naughty:

drift freaq

10-28-2007, 11:56 AM

wow I just got a dope ass idea for my Ohlins. The front stock Ohlin's top seal is a super wide ring seal i.e.2.5 inches with the shock body and the rest of the shock body tapers back to a more standard 52mm size. I am thinking of removing the front Ohlins from the stock body they come in and having a custom body made for them so I can get standard size spring collars and perches on them. What do you think?

jmauld

10-28-2007, 01:41 PM

Yea that's the main reason why I wanted to go with Bilsteins. But i'm going to have Tim do some special work to mine:naughty:

Are you talking about adding the schraeder valves? Bilstein will add those to the rears, but they claimed it couldn't be done to the fronts.

jmauld

10-28-2007, 01:43 PM

drift freaq

10-28-2007, 05:18 PM

Do you have a picture? The bilsteins have a large ring, and it just pops off.

well I would have to change the housing because the housing is lipped out at the top seal and that measures at 2.5 which is the problem.

AceInHole

10-28-2007, 06:15 PM

Do you really think ditching the rear sway bar is helping? Just based on the numbers, the rear bar is already pretty soft, especially compared to the front. Is this going back to the lifting the rear wheel issue? Or do you really feel it helps put power down?
I think it goes beyond the rear wheel lift issue, to simply having a more "planted" rear end. The car is a LOT more predictable into, through, and out of sweepers, and the change in planting power out of low speed turns was huge. Just dropping the stock rear sway (even with a whiteline up front) made a noticeable improvement on high speed sections even with less than stock power.

Could is also have to do with a less rigid chassis because of no cage? And chassis flex is messing with rear loading coming out of the turn?
I doubt that chassis flex is that great that it'd mess with my roll resistance/ stiffness. The S14 chassis isn't THAT much of a noodle.

Have you noticed any steady-state understeer issues since removing it? Or is that the way you would rather have the car? More biased towards understeer, a little past neutral?
It's biased slightly towards steady state understeer, but it's honestly so close to neutral that just bumping tire pressures a bit in back gave the car a LOT of rotation with same size wheels all around. Really, any understeer can be dialed out by adding more spring, which will help the car rotate (oversteer) without adding bind or resistance of a swaybar.

I'm sure we've talked about all of this before, but just for everyone else and the other people that have removed the rear sway.
No problem. I've heard nothing but good things from people who've tried it. I got the idea from Mike Shields, who built and drove the current SCCA Solo DSP National Champion BMW 325. He just won his second title in a row... so it seems to work pretty well.

koukimatt

10-28-2007, 07:06 PM

I want to lower my S14 some (1.5-2.5 inches, not slammed) and make it handle a little better on the street. I really appreciate all the info in this thread but some of it is way over my head. I've learned some of the terminology, but I don't totally understand how all the variables (compression, spring rate) work together to affect handling and ride smoothness.

It's not so much that a good shock/spring setup versus a coilover. It's all just a spring and a damper. The problem is that most JDM coilovers have sub par damping. I wish there was a good JDM or any market coilover that had decent valving and wasn't a ridiculous price. It's too bad that these companies can't pull it off for some reason or another.

What do you mean by 'sub par'? Other posts in this thread give some examples of 'good' dampers like Konis and Bilsteins, but what's the technical difference between the good dampers and sub-par ones? Do good dampers have faster or slower compression? Faster or slower rebound? Progressive, linear or digressive response? More adjustability? Certain construction (monotube, twin-tube)? General quality?

But there's a lot, or there should be a lot, that goes into selecting a spring rate. [...] Usually you can pick a good starting point and then fine tune from there.

The only springs I have to compare against are the S14 stock springs, which are rated for 2 kg/mm (110 lb/in) I think. What spring rates or specific spring models/families are appropriate for street and occasional track use, coupled with good dampers?

After you get the spring rates, then you look at the dampers. [...] Or if you have dyno plots, you can calculate a range of springs that will work, then compare it to your other numbers, and then pick the best compromise.

How do you read a dyno graph -- what do the values mean? How do you match springs to dampers? Please give some examples of matched springs and dampers, for street and/or track use if you can think of some.

koukimatt

10-30-2007, 11:46 AM

I'm still waiting for a respose... can anyone answer my questions?

Wiisass I PMmed some of the same questions to you a few days but I guess you didn't notice my message.

jmauld

10-30-2007, 11:55 AM

I'm still waiting for a respose... can anyone answer my questions?

Wiisass I PMmed some of the same questions to you a few days but I guess you didn't notice my message.

This is just my opinion, but for the majority of the people who want to just lower their car and are just getting into motorsports the following will get you what you're looking for..

Pick a front spring rate that will keep you off of the bumpstops during normal driving (not including hitting pot holes). Something in the 300-400lb range will generally do, depending on how low you want to lower the car, and the type of tire that you're using. Next, pick a rear spring that is between 0-100lbs lighter then the front spring. Getting the rates right to begin with, shouldn't concern you too much. They are cheap/easy to change and you can start adjusting them after you get some seattime and are able to feel the differences that different springs make.

Then get a set of shocks that can handle those spring rates. The important things to take from a shock dyno is whether or not the adjuster is adjusting both compression and rebound *(see below), and if the settings do what they say they do. IOW, if you turn the adjuster to a softer setting and the valving gets stiffer, run away from that shock.

You really don't need to get into the specifics of valving, unless you just want to. A quick phone call to a reputable rebuilding facility and they can take care of the valving for you. There's no need to learn that stuff unless you're just into it.

Some qualities of a good damper are that a single adjuster does not adjust both rebound and compression at the same time. It's not impossible, but very difficult to do any real tuning with a shock that does that. Almost all JDM coilovers use an adjuster that does both rebound and compression at the same time, because it's cheap and easy to implement. I believe the koni is the cheapest shock that effectively isolates rebound and compression. I say effectively, because even it's adjuster isn't 100% separate. FWIW, the adjustability of shocks isn't completely necessary for light duty motorsports use.

Again, this is just my opinion.

koukimatt

10-30-2007, 01:09 PM

Thanks for the info, I'm really looking forward to putting together a nice setup for my car.

Then get a set of shocks that can handle those spring rates. The important things to take from a shock dyno is whether or not the adjuster is adjusting both compression and rebound *(see below), and if the settings do what they say they do. IOW, if you turn the adjuster to a softer setting and the valving gets stiffer, run away from that shock.

The Koni Yellows are OE replacements, so they can be installed with minimal work, correct? People have also discussed the 86xxs in this thread; besides the fact that the 86xxs are just inserts (so you have to modify/fabricate housings for them) what's the difference between them and the Yellows? What range of spring rates are the Yellows and 86xxs matched for? I don't know where to find dyno plots for them; I downloaded the application guide, catalog and technical info PDFs from Koni's website but they don't contain plots for the Yellows or 86xxs.

Konis seem like the way to go, so I did a little shopping. The best deal I found on a set of 4 Yellows for S14 fitment was $510 including shipping, from http://www.importhorizon.com/koniyellow.html. I found some positive reviews for that site on other forums so they're probably legit.

What comes with a Ground Control kit? Sleeves, perches, tophats, Eibach Racing Springs with your choice of spring rate... anything else? Does the kit install right on the Koni Yellows or is any additional hardware required?

jmauld

10-30-2007, 01:26 PM

Thanks for the info, I'm really looking forward to putting together a nice setup for my car.

The Koni Yellows are OE replacements, so they can be installed with minimal work, correct? People have also discussed the 86xxs in this thread; besides the fact that the 86xxs are just inserts (so you have to modify/fabricate housings for them) what's the difference between them and the Yellows? What range of spring rates are the Yellows and 86xxs matched for? I don't know where to find dyno plots for them; I downloaded the application guide, catalog and technical info PDFs from Koni's website but they don't contain plots for the Yellows or 86xxs.

Call Koni and ask them.

Konis seem like the way to go, so I did a little shopping. The best deal I found on a set of 4 Yellows for S14 fitment was $510 including shipping, from http://www.importhorizon.com/koniyellow.html. I found some positive reviews for that site on other forums so they're probably legit.

I prefer bilsteins, but they are next to impossible to find.

What comes with a Ground Control kit? Sleeves, perches, tophats, Eibach Racing Springs with your choice of spring rate... anything else? Does the kit install right on the Koni Yellows or is any additional hardware required?
If you purchase a set of Ground Controls and Koni's, you will have everything you need to install them. I would also recommend a good camber plate, but that's not required.

If you go with the standard konis there is an easy way to get an extra inch of shock travel out of them. You'll void the warranty if you do it though.

Wiisass

10-30-2007, 01:38 PM

Are you talking about adding the schraeder valves? Bilstein will add those to the rears, but they claimed it couldn't be done to the fronts.

It can be done, it's not easy and I'm still working on the best way to do it and maintain enough clearances, but it's definitely doable.

I think it goes beyond the rear wheel lift issue, to simply having a more "planted" rear end. The car is a LOT more predictable into, through, and out of sweepers, and the change in planting power out of low speed turns was huge. Just dropping the stock rear sway (even with a whiteline up front) made a noticeable improvement on high speed sections even with less than stock power.

I doubt that chassis flex is that great that it'd mess with my roll resistance/ stiffness. The S14 chassis isn't THAT much of a noodle.

It's biased slightly towards steady state understeer, but it's honestly so close to neutral that just bumping tire pressures a bit in back gave the car a LOT of rotation with same size wheels all around. Really, any understeer can be dialed out by adding more spring, which will help the car rotate (oversteer) without adding bind or resistance of a swaybar.

No problem. I've heard nothing but good things from people who've tried it. I got the idea from Mike Shields, who built and drove the current SCCA Solo DSP National Champion BMW 325. He just won his second title in a row... so it seems to work pretty well.

I can see how it would help put down power. And of course there's a lot of different variables that can contribute to under/oversteer balance. And I know it can be dialed out with adding stiffer springs, but sometimes that's not something you want to do. Oh well, this isn't the place to get too into this. And it really depends on a lot of other things. But one other thing, are the rear springs captive or do they hang loose when at fulll droop?

I want to lower my S14 some (1.5-2.5 inches, not slammed) and make it handle a little better on the street. I really appreciate all the info in this thread but some of it is way over my head. I've learned some of the terminology, but I don't totally understand how all the variables (compression, spring rate) work together to affect handling and ride smoothness.

What do you mean by 'sub par'? Other posts in this thread give some examples of 'good' dampers like Konis and Bilsteins, but what's the technical difference between the good dampers and sub-par ones? Do good dampers have faster or slower compression? Faster or slower rebound? Progressive, linear or digressive response? More adjustability? Certain construction (monotube, twin-tube)? General quality?

The only springs I have to compare against are the S14 stock springs, which are rated for 2 kg/mm (110 lb/in) I think. What spring rates or specific spring models/families are appropriate for street and occasional track use, coupled with good dampers?

How do you read a dyno graph -- what do the values mean? How do you match springs to dampers? Please give some examples of matched springs and dampers, for street and/or track use if you can think of some.

Matt, what you ask for isn't something that can be easily explained. There should be a lot that goes into spring rate selection. And there are some different methods depending on your background, experience, what you really want to get out of it. But answering your questions would take a book, what you ask isn't as cut as dry as some people may think.

Things that influence spring rate selection, sprung weight, unsprung weight, suspension geometry, wheel size, tire size, sway bars available, dampers available, wheel travel, natural frequencies, oversteer/understeer balance, roll gradient, lateral load transfer distrubution, tire curves, etc. All of these should be factored in and/or considered during the process.

As for dampers. The damper body doesn't matter so much, well it does for a strut because a strut sees bending loads due to the suspension design. But for shocks, let's just assume that the body design is fine. So it's what's inside that matter, the shim stacks, the piston design, the fluid viscosity, the nitrogen pressure, etc. So just saying Koni or Bilstein or Ohlins or any other company is almost irrelevant. From companies like the ones I mentioned and a few others, you get better quality. More consistent damping, better support, better design, etc. But the valving still needs to be matched to the car. You could take a random Ohlins damper and it could suck if you just threw it on a random car, but if it was matched, then it would be awesome. You also have to factor in adjusters and how they affect everything, like Jmauld was saying. But adjusters aren't always necessary, and for most people, they will hurt the car or adjust something that doesn't need to be adjusted just for the fact that they can.

As for what you look for in a curve, the damping force available, needs to match what the car wants and what the driving needs. Go to my site and read what I've posted in my forum and the articles I've written, a lot is in there. It's easier than me typing everything out again, and I really don't have the time.

So go read the stuff I've written on my site, link is in sig, and then you can look at some of the other resources on there and if you have more questions let me know.

This is just my opinion, but for the majority of the people who want to just lower their car and are just getting into motorsports the following will get you what you're looking for..

Pick a front spring rate that will keep you off of the bumpstops during normal driving (not including hitting pot holes). Something in the 300-400lb range will generally do, depending on how low you want to lower the car, and the type of tire that you're using. Next, pick a rear spring that is between 0-100lbs lighter then the front spring. Getting the rates right to begin with, shouldn't concern you too much. They are cheap/easy to change and you can start adjusting them after you get some seattime and are able to feel the differences that different springs make.

Then get a set of shocks that can handle those spring rates. The important things to take from a shock dyno is whether or not the adjuster is adjusting both compression and rebound *(see below), and if the settings do what they say they do. IOW, if you turn the adjuster to a softer setting and the valving gets stiffer, run away from that shock.

You really don't need to get into the specifics of valving, unless you just want to. A quick phone call to a reputable rebuilding facility and they can take care of the valving for you. There's no need to learn that stuff unless you're just into it.

Some qualities of a good damper are that a single adjuster does not adjust both rebound and compression at the same time. It's not impossible, but very difficult to do any real tuning with a shock that does that. Almost all JDM coilovers use an adjuster that does both rebound and compression at the same time, because it's cheap and easy to implement. I believe the koni is the cheapest shock that effectively isolates rebound and compression. I say effectively, because even it's adjuster isn't 100% separate. FWIW, the adjustability of shocks isn't completely necessary for light duty motorsports use.

Again, this is just my opinion.

This sounds like one way to do it, I wouldn't do it this way, but Jmauld does bring up some good points.

The problems with this method, you need to base your wheel travel on shock choice and ride height and how much room you have. And do this on paper with some basic physics calcs to get an idea of wheel loads during cornering. It won't be accurate, but you can overestimate lateral and longitudinal acceleration and keep a factor of safety. Also, what spring you have in the back versus what spring you have in the front depends on the installation ratio and the weight balance. So for the 240, jmauld's estimate would probably work out, but for other cars, you need to take these other things into consideration.

Then picking a damper that will work with the spring rates, in order to do this, you need to see the dyno plot and know what forces you're looking for at what speeds. Or you need to get someone else to do it for you. Depending on how well you want the car to handle, this is a very critical step. I'm not sure by "make sure the shocks can handle the spring" means, because what amount of damping depends on what damping ratio you're looking for and how you want the car to work. But what was said about the adjusters, is important to consider. But not the most important. I would rather have a properly valved damper that was valved exactly how I wanted it than one with adjusters that worked correctly and could get me kind of close to what I wanted out of it.

Tim

Wiisass

10-30-2007, 01:41 PM

Call Koni and ask them.

I prefer bilsteins, but they are next to impossible to find.

Last time I talked to the head of Koni Motorsports, they didn't have plots for the s-chassis yellows. They did have some stuff that would give you an idea of what you can get out of the 86series, but they were just PVP plots, which I hate.

Bilsteins aren't impossible to get, but they aren't easy either or cheap anymore, so it sucks.

jmauld

10-30-2007, 02:07 PM

Bilsteins aren't impossible to get, but they aren't easy either or cheap anymore, so it sucks.

I was specifically referring to the OEM replacments by Bilstein. I'd love to have a set for my daily, so if you have a source, PM me.

jmauld

10-30-2007, 02:17 PM

Then picking a damper that will work with the spring rates, in order to do this, you need to see the dyno plot and know what forces you're looking for at what speeds. Or you need to get someone else to do it for you. Depending on how well you want the car to handle, this is a very critical step. I'm not sure by "make sure the shocks can handle the spring" means, because what amount of damping depends on what damping ratio you're looking for and how you want the car to work. But what was said about the adjusters, is important to consider. But not the most important. I would rather have a properly valved damper that was valved exactly how I wanted it than one with adjusters that worked correctly and could get me kind of close to what I wanted out of it.

Tim

My suggestion on reading the plots, is specifically to point him to shocks such as Bilstein, Koni, Ohlins, etc, since 99% of the JDM units would fail at least one of those qualifications. Once you decide on one of those manufacturers, you're fairly safe relying on them to valve the shock for you based on how you want the car to respond. After you get some seat time under your belt, the shocks above will allow you to have a little fun with valving if you choose to go that route.

image12

11-06-2007, 08:27 AM

whats the part number for the 8611 you guys run to fit the s14 front

AceInHole

11-06-2007, 08:46 AM

whats the part number for the 8611 you guys run to fit the s14 front

They won't fit the OEM housings as they're retained by a gland nut. We're using 8611-1257's up front due to the shorter stroke and housing, though.

sl4ck3r

11-06-2007, 08:17 PM

you guys are amazing. that is all.

Gnnr

11-06-2007, 09:47 PM

Does anyone know who I should e-mail at Ground Control to get a reply? I sent "[email protected]" an e-mail last week and they still haven't answered me. :confused:

koukimatt

11-14-2007, 07:16 PM

My S14 Koni Yellows and GC kit arrived today. My first concern is that I'm not sure how to install the coilover kit onto the dampers. The GC kit came with 10-15 black 1 1/2" o-rings; what are those for? The rear sleeves look like they slide on to the rear Yellows from the top down, but the sleeves fit so tightly around the shock tube, I'm not sure if I can slide them all the way down to sit on the snap-ring. As for the fronts... I've read the PDF from Koni describing how to modify the stock front strut housings, but that's for OEM springs... what do I need to do to the housings (if anything) for the GC setup? Do the sleeves go onto the shocks, or onto the strut housing? There's a short "inverted lip" at the top of the front sleeves, which looks like it fits around the lip/cap/collar on the top of the front dampers; is that all that's supporting the front sleeves, or do they sit on something else?

My second concern is... I'm not sure that I received the correct sleeves and springs. I ordered all of the parts over the phone from Dean at Stillen; I asked for the Koni Yellows and a GC kit with 400F/300R springs. He didn't object to my selection, nor did he say anything about the parts being incompatible, so I would hope everything matches. However, the stock springs on the car are 11" tall uncompressed (front and back); the new Eibach springs I received with the GC kit are 5" tall (Eibach part #143302, GC125.64.75), and the rears are 7" (Eibach part #204619-1, GC180.64.44). The front sleeves are 2.5" tall and the rears are 4". Both the new front and rear springs seem too short, but as I said before I don't know exactly how they should be installed.

Can someone with the same S14 setup confirm all this -- do I have the right parts?

D1GP

11-14-2007, 07:18 PM

^^snap some pics^^

koukimatt

11-14-2007, 08:09 PM

Relative spring sizes:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2261/springsizeswk2.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=springsizeswk2.jpg)
I understand that the new springs should be smaller in diameter, but the new front springs are less than half the height of the stock ones. Is that normal?

Front parts:
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/8505/frontpartseo1.th.jpg (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontpartseo1.jpg)
Do I slide the sleeve up the damper from bottom-to-top so the lip at the top of the damper sits in the bevel at the top of the sleeve?

Rear damper:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9348/reardamperxu8.th.jpg (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=reardamperxu8.jpg)

Rear sleeve:
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5303/rearsleeveab5.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rearsleeveab5.jpg)
Does the rear sleeve slide down onto the rear damper from the top until the black seat/fitting rests on the ring on the damper?

McCoy

11-16-2007, 11:10 AM

I finally got the rest of my GC order in and put all the pieces together last night. I'm using the 8610 insert with Richards one-off housing for the front. I still have a few misc things to pick up, but for the most part its ready to go on the car this weekend.

Fronts... the odd ball part of this setup is that there is no tophat since I couldn't source a Tein one, we opted to go with a rubber donut that centers the spring around the bearing housing of the Tein camber plate and the torrington bearing is sandwiched between the eibach spring and GC adjustable perch at the bottom. This was an idea of someone that builds/sells custom suspension for the B13 crowd and was able to source teh parts from GC for me.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg

Rears... I'm actually using the B13 GC kit, so the threaded collar is taller than what typically is supplied with the S13 GC kit.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_rear_together.jpg

koukimatt

11-16-2007, 12:34 PM

I've called GC 3 times, asking them to email me some instructions, called them 2 times; and posted on here. This seemed to be a lively thread before I posted, and then it died. I haven't received responses from anybody, at GC or here... what's going on?

McCoy

11-16-2007, 02:15 PM

^^^ here is a link for a good writeup for a B14/B15 chassis. It should be helpful in answering some of your questions.

http://www.notnser.com/ <-- click on the suspension link on the left column. I'd try to answer more, but I've never done a basic GC install on a S13/S14.

koukimatt

11-19-2007, 06:41 PM

I ordered the S14 Koni Yellows and the Ground Control sleeve/spring kit with 400F/300R Eibach springs from Stillen. Total: about $950 including shipping.

Big fat note: Don't take the sleeves and perches out of the box and take off the perches just to play with them -- especially the rear sleeves! I did this, and I ended up putting the perch back onto one of the rear sleeves upside-down on accident. The rear sleeves will only support the car's weight when installed the right way -- with the words on the perches facing up.

The front shocks take a fair bit of work to install. Raise and secure the car with jackstands etc. Take off the front wheels and remove the original struts. First, you have to punch/drill a small (3mm or so) hole in the very center of the bottom of each original strut, to relieve some of the pressure and start draining the fluid. When you do this, make sure you're wearing "shop clothes" because shock oil will get sprayed everywhere. Then cut the spring perches off of the original strut housings right above the weld bead (be careful not to cut into the housing itself; you can tell when you've cut through the perch because you'll start seeing rusty metal), and cut all the way around the top of the housing tube, 20mm-25mm deep (the Koni instructions tell you how far down from the top to cut). When you cut all the way through the top of the housing, shock oil will start leaking out. Once you've cut all the way around, you can pull the old shock guts out of the housing. Then enlarge the hole in the bottom to 14mm or so with a step bit for the new bolts (included with the Koni shocks).

At this point you should install the large D-shaped washers, o-rings and the coilover sleeves and perches; it's much easier to put them on before inserting the new shocks. (If you don't install them now, you will either have to grind down the lip/cap on the new shocks so the sleeves can slide down past them, or you'll have to take out the shocks to put the sleeves on anyway.) The D-shaped washers should sit on top of the weld beads; you can file/grind the beads a little to help the washers sit level, although I didn't bother with this and it's probably not that important. Put a few o-rings onto the top of each housing tube above the D-washer, and slide the threaded sleeve down onto the housing tube over the o-rings. This was a little tricky for me; the o-rings kept getting pinched up and wouldn't slide under the sleeve properly, so the sleeve was sitting crooked on the housing tube. Note: the sleeve should go onto the housing with the beveled/lipped end of the housing facing the same direction as the open end of the housing. The inverted lip is for the new shock's cap to sit in.

Now you need to get the new shocks into the gutted housings. Shine a strong light into each housing, and use a ruler or dowel to see if there are any protrusions like rivets inside the housing. If there are any protrusions, you will either have to file/grind down the protrusions inside the tube, or grind off some of the paint and a few millimeters of metal from the bottom of the new front shocks so they will slide into the housings. Have a piece of re-bar or something handy to tap the shock back out of the housing if you realize you can't force it in. (I used an ordinary hammer and some scrap wood to protect the cap of the new shocks and drive them into the housings; if you give it a few strong taps and it doesn't move, something is sill in the way, and hitting it more will probably just screw up the new shock body). I used some WD-40 when inserting the shocks, but the fit was so tight I couldn't tell if that helped any or not.

Once the shocks are inserted into the housings all the way, use the washers and bolts to secure the shock at the base of the housing. Now you can put on the springs, tophats and the other stuff at the top of the shock shaft, lock the perches in place, and put the whole assembly back on the car. Lower the car slowly and keep your hands out of the wheel wells and away from the car in general, in case something slips and the car drops. Oh, one other thing for the fronts: you can tie-wrap the tophats to the springs to keep the tophats from flopping around and to keep them seated when you lower the car.

The rear shocks are relatively easy. Raise and secure the rear of the car with jackstands etc. Remove the rear wheels and take off the old shocks. Slide the sleeves onto the new shocks, and make sure you're putting the sleeves on the right way -- with the lettering on the perches facing up! This may seem obvious but it's very important... see the big fat note at the top of this post. Put on the new springs, tophats and washers; then take the hardware off of the top of the old shock shafts and install it onto the new shock shafts (see the Ground Control instructions for details). Unfortunately you can't really zip-tie the rear tophats to the springs; when you lower the car, watch the tophats to make sure the new washers slide down into them, otherwise the tophats won't be seated right.

Uh... that's about all I can remember at the moment. Parts of this operation were a real pain for me because I've never done it before, and I thought I had trashed one of the rear setups because I put the sleeve on upside down, and it came apart when I tried to lower that corner of the car. I don't have a bunch of fancy tools; just sockets, wrenches, basic stuff. If you have access to a machine shop, some of this might be a lot easier. It took me about 2 days of on-and-off work to take the old stuff off, put the new stuff together and install it on the car, with some help -- but as I said, I am (or was) a clueless noob, so maybe other people can do it faster and with less headache.

Since I just got finished I haven't driven the car much, just around the block once to make sure it wasn't going to fall apart. I'll try to remember to post some driving impressions in a few days.

I hope someone finds this useful and can avoid some of the difficulties and frustration I went through... feedback is appreciated!

AceInHole

11-19-2007, 06:52 PM

Doh! I missed this thread for a few days since I was swamped at work. Sorry I wasn't able to provide any input when you needed it, but it sounds like you got everything together ok.

Definitely post some impressions up of how it drives! A few people have made the switch to Koni recently, and they all seem pretty ecstatic.

ManoNegra

11-19-2007, 09:31 PM

^ yeah
Thanks for the write up.

veilside180sx

11-19-2007, 09:47 PM

Take a picture of how you mounted the D ring for me please.

At this point you should install the large D-shaped washers, o-rings and the coilover sleeves and perches; it's much easier to put them on before inserting the new shocks. (If you don't install them now, you will either have to grind down the lip/cap on the new shocks so the sleeves can slide down past them, or you'll have to take out the shocks to put the sleeves on anyway.) The D-shaped washers should sit on top of the weld beads; you can file/grind the beads a little to help the washers sit level, although I didn't bother with this and it's probably not that important. Put a few o-rings onto the top of each housing tube above the D-washer, and slide the threaded sleeve down onto the housing tube over the o-rings. This was a little tricky for me; the o-rings kept getting pinched up and wouldn't slide under the sleeve properly, so the sleeve was sitting crooked on the housing tube. Note: the sleeve should go onto the housing with the beveled/lipped end of the housing facing the same direction as the open end of the housing. The inverted lip is for the new shock's cap to sit in.
!

drift freaq

11-19-2007, 10:11 PM

24Dee

11-20-2007, 08:27 AM

The last GC setup I did. I had the D washer welded to the strut housing. In fact thats how most of the guys I now that have done them here in socal have done them. Just hit 3 spots around the underside with a tig.

This is the biggest reason i've heard that sleeved coils are 'shit'. What other reasons are there that people have always labeled GC and other sleeved coilover systems as such?

steve shadows

11-20-2007, 10:00 AM

This is the biggest reason i've heard that sleeved coils are 'shit'. What other reasons are there that people have always labeled GC and other sleeved coilover systems as such?

other reasons are.

:JDM drifting Hype
:Fast and the Furious Three
:JDM Hype in general
:Herpes

veilside180sx

11-20-2007, 10:01 AM

The sleeve really needs to sit on a flat surface, which is why the D or O washer needs to be mounted on the housing. The stock spring flange is not remotely flat and causes the sleeve to move around which makes noises and can be a little unsettling for some.

Setup correctly...they are fabulous.

steve shadows

11-20-2007, 10:03 AM

.

Setup correctly...they are fabulous.

Yeah the noises arent bad, and like others said you can use a pre-load washer or weld the lower washer to the body if your discontent.

veilside180sx

11-20-2007, 10:06 AM

Just to make sure no one reads this and gets a bad idea. Only weld to a empty strut housing. Never weld to a pressurized strut. (ie stock, AGX, or similar strut)

24Dee

11-20-2007, 10:23 AM

other reasons are.

:JDM drifting Hype
:Fast and the Furious Three
:JDM Hype in general
:Herpes

lol..

Add ARod/Scott Boras to that list as well.

McCoy

11-20-2007, 11:29 AM

additional review on the Koni 8610's up front.

The 8610's are turned up to 1.5 turns (about 1/2 to full stiff) and I've yet to move them from this position till I have the rears on and some more seat time.

I was able to take the car out for a drive this last Saturday to get a better feel for the front suspension. I took a road that I take each day to work, the road is patched in a few spots and has a railroad crossing with uneven pavement on both sides and between the tracks. With the Silkroad coilovers, I typically have to slow to 15mph when crossing the tracks, if not it just feels like your going to break something on the car! For a good test of how the Koni's would do on this, I hit the tracks at about 30mph and it just felt amazing, there was just a thud thud thud as I crossed the tracks, no major jolt or the feeling that the cars going to take flight, it's hard to explain but it was a good feeling.

The funny part is, the Silkroad coilovers were using 336F/300R for springs rates and koni fronts I just installed, I went with 550lb springs... just goes to show that the stiffness in most every JDM coilover setup is in the valving of the dampener.

As for driving over the patched sections of road and just older roads in general... you can feel it, just not near as bad as the typical JDM coilover.

I have some 440lb spring in the garage that I'll be putting on in the next day or two, just out of curiosity. The 550lb springs feel fine, but I'm curious and don't plan on getting an alignment till after the rears are on and I play with the ride height some more.

As always, take my advise with a grain of salt and realize that I only have the fronts installed. I have yet to take the car out on any of our back roads or the track yet, and that probably won't happen for a while due to the 4" of snow that fell last night.

veilside180sx

11-20-2007, 10:42 PM

I'm excited for you to get the rears on too=)

AceInHole

11-21-2007, 06:13 AM

I'm excited to get my spherical bearing inserts and more 8611's to mock up my rears :boink:

koukimatt

11-21-2007, 03:49 PM

Take a picture of how you mounted the D ring for me please.

Bah, my camera is dead again... the GC instructions say to make the flat side of the D-ring face the tire (for tire/wheel clearance maybe?) but since I didn't weld the D-rings onto the old front housings / weld beads, there's really nothing preventing the D-rings from turning.

I still haven't driven the car enough to give any real description of the handling -- just a trip down the street to the parts store to return rented spring compressors. It rides much, much better than it did with blown shocks (doh!) although it still seems "heavy" in the back (comes down hard after I roll over a big bump); I guess I need to adjust the rear rebound, but I don't know whether it needs more rebound or less. The car needs a realignment, and as my bro pointed out I need some adjustable rear upper control arms and adjustable camber plates up front.

PoorMans180SX

11-21-2007, 04:14 PM

vw_nissan

11-21-2007, 04:19 PM

veilside180sx: when will you have the s13 housing ready? I am exited to run these next season...:2f2f:

veilside180sx

11-21-2007, 07:50 PM

I just got a shipment of flanges, but they are the wrong material. I'm waiting for another shipment, which should be here very soon.

It should take about a week and half after i get the new ones to knock them out and get them powdercoated.

Irukandji

11-21-2007, 08:11 PM

GC + Koni yellows are awesome.

AceInHole

11-21-2007, 08:46 PM

Very nice thread full of good stuff.

AceInHole, are you going to update your thread, or put it in here from now on?
And maybe I missed it, but are you still going to run the 11/8 spring rate setup you were?

I wish someone around here had a Koni/GC setup so I could have a ride.

I'll probably up my front springs a bit, or run a stiffer bar. I really need more seat time in the car to really dial it in, which I'm hoping I can do early next season. For now, not much progress on the car. I've been swamped at work and a few other things have been getting in the way. A bunch of little stuff should come together shortly, though.

90KAcoupe

12-02-2007, 09:22 PM

i just finished reading this thread starting from the first post on page 1. this is an amazing thread and it needs to be stickied!! I have always wanted to go with the koni setup after talking to a guy at a scca club race that raced a ITA 240sx. but after being basically brain washed on the forums that all the JDM coilovers are "good" i kind of forgot about the koni idea.

but i have decided im going to get something cheap to hold me over till i can save the money for the Koni 8610's, GC Spring setup, i'll make my own strut housings, and some type of pillowball camber plates.

Please keep the info coming

Matt> whats ur opinion on the koni setup now that u have had it a couple of days.

veilside180sx

12-25-2007, 02:53 PM

http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/CIMG1610.preview.JPG

Oops, don't know how that slipped out...

number80

12-25-2007, 06:57 PM

I read the first page only and I just laughed at all the response saying GC/koni are not good and tein SS and most of the JDM coilovers are good. GC/Koni combo can beat 80% of the JDM suspension you throw at it. You'd have to spend $1800 plus to get a suspension that is better.

If you're looking for a slammed look and some JDM bling bling then get some JDM brands but if you're looking for the best handling then GC/Koni is the best bang for buck combo out there. Problem is many people think their suspension is good just because it's stiff :coold:

Gnnr

12-26-2007, 12:26 AM

^^nice, you did those yourself?

veilside180sx

12-26-2007, 12:51 AM

^^nice, you did those yourself?

and...others=) If you re-read the thread...you'll find some...

yokotas13

12-26-2007, 02:38 AM

if i wasnt staying with air, id go GC koni;

hell i might go GC sleeves, Konis, and get my bag tested to approximate spring rate

Gnnr

12-26-2007, 01:17 PM

and...others=) If you re-read the thread...you'll find some...

oh yeah, forgot. haha. :)

90KAcoupe

12-26-2007, 01:44 PM

what type of metal are u using to make them??? cause i'm gonna build a set in a couple of months.

driftfreek

12-26-2007, 06:05 PM

This is just my opinion, but for the majority of the people who want to just lower their car and are just getting into motorsports the following will get you what you're looking for..

Pick a front spring rate that will keep you off of the bumpstops during normal driving (not including hitting pot holes). Something in the 300-400lb range will generally do, depending on how low you want to lower the car, and the type of tire that you're using. Next, pick a rear spring that is between 0-100lbs lighter then the front spring. Getting the rates right to begin with, shouldn't concern you too much. They are cheap/easy to change and you can start adjusting them after you get some seattime and are able to feel the differences that different springs make.

Then get a set of shocks that can handle those spring rates. The important things to take from a shock dyno is whether or not the adjuster is adjusting both compression and rebound *(see below), and if the settings do what they say they do. IOW, if you turn the adjuster to a softer setting and the valving gets stiffer, run away from that shock.

You really don't need to get into the specifics of valving, unless you just want to. A quick phone call to a reputable rebuilding facility and they can take care of the valving for you. There's no need to learn that stuff unless you're just into it.

Some qualities of a good damper are that a single adjuster does not adjust both rebound and compression at the same time. It's not impossible, but very difficult to do any real tuning with a shock that does that. Almost all JDM coilovers use an adjuster that does both rebound and compression at the same time, because it's cheap and easy to implement. I believe the koni is the cheapest shock that effectively isolates rebound and compression. I say effectively, because even it's adjuster isn't 100% separate. FWIW, the adjustability of shocks isn't completely necessary for light duty motorsports use.

Again, this is just my opinion.

with those spring rates (300-400F, and 0-100 less R) could taking out the rear swaybar be a good idea?

and about the whole rear swaybar subject, what's better? no rear sway bar, stock sway bar, or stock sway bar with stiffer endlinks? this might be a noob question, but im just trying to learn.

Creizai

12-26-2007, 07:22 PM

http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/CIMG1610.preview.JPG

Oops, don't know how that slipped out...

I saw earlier that with those you can lower the car alot more still keep the suspension travel. Mind explaining how ?

Also couldn't we use shorter stroke shocks like the Corolla guys do? I know they use MR2 fronts and Camaro rears.

My Cuscos are prolly on there last season and even though I only use them for drift I've been thinking about doing some grip events to practice lines and throtttle control better. blah blah blah

veilside180sx

12-26-2007, 08:14 PM

The Koni is a shorter strut and shorter housing. In addition the flange is welded on in a location to make the most of it.

I saw earlier that with those you can lower the car alot more still keep the suspension travel. Mind explaining how ?

Also couldn't we use shorter stroke shocks like the Corolla guys do? I know they use MR2 fronts and Camaro rears.

My Cuscos are prolly on there last season and even though I only use them for drift I've been thinking about doing some grip events to practice lines and throtttle control better. blah blah blah

Creizai

12-26-2007, 09:53 PM

The Koni is a shorter strut and shorter housing. In addition the flange is welded on in a location to make the most of it.

How much lower is it? Also you going to be selling those or I mean making more and selling them ? :hsdance:

PoorMans180SX

12-27-2007, 12:24 PM

^^yes, that's what he's known for around here, hahaha.

240sxScores

01-15-2008, 12:29 PM

http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/CIMG1610.preview.JPG

Any word on these getting made to sell in the future??

PoorMans180SX

01-15-2008, 02:14 PM

PM him, I'm sure he'll be glad to sell you some.

sideview_180sx

01-16-2008, 09:49 AM

veilside will you be able to run the koni 86xx series using your housings. Better yet i'll hit you up on NRR

a_ahmed

01-16-2008, 09:51 AM

^yes

message length

veilside180sx

01-16-2008, 11:03 AM

Yes I'm still making them :hsdance:

Although pretty much all of these are spoken for...

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/CIMG1666.JPG

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/CIMG1667.JPG

95KA-Turbo

03-10-2008, 09:15 PM

Koni 8611's are awesome. They're pretty much as good as it gets untill Moton/ Ohlins/ Koni 28's.

Spring perches set here:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/suspensions/DSC_6276.jpg

Sit here:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/Panda/DSC_4371.jpg

(Crappy pic:)
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/DSC_6284.jpg

I'll try to get a better pic later... but long hours at work = I get home when it's dark :(

I am curious as to how much lower you can move that spring and still have it be safe for the strut - ie give it enough travel room. If you could go another 1/2 to 1 inch if not more then I am extremely excited. I was going to attempt to get some inserts to go into my JIC FLA2 coilovers to fit koni shocks into it and run some GCs so I can have dual height adjustability. Just for the simple fact I am concerned as to how low it will go because my predominate use for the car is daily driving and I care how it looks. At the same time I want to run a competent suspension set up for track days/etc.

Or is something like this possible - it would be nice if it can go lower on the spring and this as well.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c51/95KA-Turbo/GCkoni.jpg

I'm not sure how much room is left underneath the shock - IE the control arm.

bungl3

03-10-2008, 10:51 PM

very interesting read :) though i skipped a lot fo it for the pretty pictures :)

is this sort of setup available with spring rates around the 8/6 mark? im not sure what that is in lbs:( and would the koni inserts cope at that spring rate?

thnaks :)

95KA-Turbo

03-11-2008, 04:44 AM

You should go back and reread the thread, people are running 9k and 12k spring rates.

bungl3

03-11-2008, 06:28 AM

You should go back and reread the thread, people are running 9k and 12k spring rates.

sorry there was a hell of a lot to read and it was like 4am here :o:o

95KA-Turbo

03-11-2008, 06:49 AM

I wasn't saying it in a mean way, just as a helpful suggestion because I found the whole thread to be informative and multiple people discuss their set ups in here.

a_ahmed

03-11-2008, 07:05 AM

Man I read the thread from beginning to end and have it on subscribe, just do it lol. This setup can kill pretty much any setup until you get really expensive (eg; 5k+ setups) for <2Kish you can have everything and be competing close enough to expensive koni, bilstein, moton, jrs setups...

Tearlessj

03-11-2008, 09:40 AM

I read this whole thread again cause I was bored. One thing I didn't see was drifting performance. I was going to get PBM coils and ride rough and be slammed. But once again reading this thread has got me thinking. How would these be for drifting? I plan on running a pretty stiff way bar and others.

McCoy

03-11-2008, 02:37 PM

I guess I can add some more to this, since I just finished the 2nd part of my suspension build. The few short drives I took with the car felt better than my Silkroad coilovers with 6K/5K springs... no comparison between the two, the Koni's are just so much better :)

Fronts are Richards housings with Koni 8611's, GC hardware, Tein tophats, and 550lb Eibach springs.
Rears are Richards housings with Koni 8610's, GC hardware, Tein pillowmounts, and 400lb Eibach springs.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_front_and_rear.jpg

I'm running a 275/40/17 RA1's on 17x9 +35 5zigens in this picture with no spacers on the front.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/RA1_test_fitment_no_spacer_02.jpg

Here is the rears installed with the Z32 uprights.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_8610_rear_ride_height_adjustment.jpg

95KA-Turbo

03-11-2008, 03:38 PM

On a S13 I assume judging by the front and rear shock length and the rucas?

Any shots of how the car sits at those settings?

McCoy

03-11-2008, 03:49 PM

On a S13 I assume judging by the front and rear shock length and the rucas?

Any shots of how the car sits at those settings?
S13, correct.

I don't have any good shots... this is what I took a few months back with the RA-1's on. The back is now about 1/2 to 3/4" lower now. If I want to go lower I need to either run a shorter front spring or get wide fenders and run a 10mm spacer to clear the perch. If I wasn't trying to stuff so much tire under the car then I could run the car alot lower, there is plenty of travel left, just look at PJ's setup.

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/RA1_test_fitment_05.jpg

D1GP

03-11-2008, 03:58 PM

hey mccoy, could you please post the grand total into that setup?

95KA-Turbo

03-11-2008, 04:00 PM

The math I've done on the set up puts it between 18-2000 dollars...I don't own the set up so you can see what they say.

McCoy

03-11-2008, 04:38 PM

^^^ Close, my rough estimate is $2200 if you were to buy everything new.

rockdrummer027

03-13-2008, 08:32 AM

timtiminy

03-14-2008, 12:06 PM

does anyone know what height gc springs can be used on front and rear? i have a friend selling his gc springs off his civic and they are 7" tall for the rear springs and 8" tall for the front springs. I want them cause they are the spring rates i am looking for but i dont know if they will fit. and just to keep in mind, I am not looking to totally slam my ride with these springs maybe a 2" drop or so.

timtiminy

03-14-2008, 01:52 PM

i am thinking i could get an ebay cheapy coilover kit just for the sleeves and use the GC springs, should work as long as the springs are the correct height.

McCoy

03-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Are Z32 TT and NA Uprights the same? I know the hubs are different but I think the E-brake is the same. I have a set of TT uprights and would really like to use veilside's housings for the koni 8610's.I'm pretty sure the uprights are the same... it's the axle/hubs that are different between the NA/TT.

does anyone know what height gc springs can be used on front and rear? i have a friend selling his gc springs off his civic and they are 7" tall for the rear springs and 8" tall for the front springs. I want them cause they are the spring rates i am looking for but i dont know if they will fit. and just to keep in mind, I am not looking to totally slam my ride with these springs maybe a 2" drop or so.
Is this for an S13 or an S14? Also, do you plan on using the off the shelf koni yellow in the rear or a custom housing with 86XX koni inserts?

timtiminy

03-14-2008, 03:01 PM

This will be for a S13 and I will be using AGX's

Spoolpigeon

03-14-2008, 07:33 PM

i recently switched from agx/s-techs to koni/GC setup. i had koni's on my integra 5 or 6 years ago and loved them, that's why i wnet with these. i really like them over the agx's. i was able to lower the front a little more and get the car corner balanced. the only complaint so far is the non externally adjustable rear. i emailed koni to see about getting the rears converted to external, but it was $175 per shock.

here is the car now, front is all the way low, back could go another2 inches lower...

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n315/spoolpigeon/DSC01615.jpg

a_ahmed

03-14-2008, 08:11 PM

its worth getting koni 8611 in rear instead of koni yellow with external adjuster, should be about same price but better/more worthwhile. AGX/stech sucks ass, i cant wait to get rid of them.

bigOdom1

03-14-2008, 08:26 PM

yellow is a good bit cheaper

drift freaq

03-14-2008, 08:34 PM

I am actually going to be running the Eclipse Koni rear which is externally adjustable and uprated( more agressively valved) compared to the koni yellows for our cars. I will be running 8610's upfront and my setup is costing around $1200 with Richards custom housings. I do plan on using it for drifting.

timtiminy

03-17-2008, 02:28 AM

Does anyone know what height spring to order for an s13? i would like to have it at stock ride height at the top of the adjustability. i am looking to go 330 front and 250 rear on kyb agx dampers (which is about 6 kg/mm front and 4.5kg/mm rear) It will be a grip setup so i think this will be a good feel.

tschad

03-17-2008, 04:21 AM

a_ahmed

03-17-2008, 06:06 AM

I don't think KYB AGX dampers can even handle those rates... also 1.5" is the absolute max one should drop KYB AGX dampers ... KYB even says the warranty is gone once you drop them like that.... and so its up to you if you want them blown very fast...

I would sell them (as i will with mine) about 300$ with springs (fair deal/shameless plug hehe, well not yet anyways) once I get my koni 8611 setup... it works but its just not for track/autox not enough anyways... even though its 'meant' for such things (well single adjustable but still adjustable...)

timtiminy

03-20-2008, 10:40 PM

Steve Shadows mentioned that the agx's can handle up to 350lb springs, I figure 330 up front and 250 rear keeps it under 350 and keeps the rears at 75% of the spring rate up front, which seems to be the correct variation from front to rear. Oh and i dont really want to lower the car much at all, i want to keep my suspension geometry and am going for grip so i know my setup is going to be alot different than most 240's

veilside180sx

03-25-2008, 09:26 PM

There's been a color change=)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2282/2362332827_9b6ae412b1.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2101/2362332833_7ed73a70f6.jpg?v=0

drift freaq

03-25-2008, 09:38 PM

There's been a color change=)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2282/2362332827_9b6ae412b1.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2101/2362332833_7ed73a70f6.jpg?v=0

Damn, I liked the blue!

bigOdom1

03-25-2008, 10:10 PM

awesome i love it plus it wont show dirt as bad

a_ahmed

03-26-2008, 06:55 AM

racist! lol jk

98koukile

03-26-2008, 06:38 PM

Now with my new job I can afford this stuff. Any chance I can get it bare metal?

veilside180sx

03-26-2008, 07:10 PM

Now with my new job I can afford this stuff. Any chance I can get it bare metal?

Non-powdercoated?

LA_phantom_240

03-26-2008, 07:22 PM

sa-weet. Nice to see stuff coming together.

98koukile

03-29-2008, 09:39 AM

Non-powdercoated?

Yeah only because I'm getting all my arms done, it'd be sweet to have everything the same color. I mean if not, black is neutral so it doesn't matter anyways

spool_sample

04-06-2008, 03:49 PM

Got my Koni/GC setup from veilside180sx installed today... well, the fronts anyway. The rears are still in the development phase. :p

Pics are kinda big, so 56k, take a number.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/fullboost14/IMG_0190.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/fullboost14/IMG_0192.jpg
http://www.zilvia.net/f/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/fullboost14/IMG_0199.jpg%5B/IMG%5Dhttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/fullboost14/CopyofIMG_0199.jpg

Racing season starts in one week... so pumped!

I'll have more details and driving impressions after that first event. It'll be pretty interesting with fresh 8611s up front and blown Apexi World Sports in the rear. :D

a_ahmed

04-06-2008, 03:59 PM

cant wait to piece mine together :)...

What's up with the zipties ? eh?

xkamikazestormx

04-06-2008, 04:32 PM

anyone have a step by step with pictures on how to install it?

been thinking about the GC setup for a while but im not exactly sure how much fabrication i would have to do

spool_sample

04-06-2008, 04:42 PM

cant wait to piece mine together :)...

What's up with the zipties ? eh?

Just to hold the brake lines together... anal retentiveness set in. :p