Is the cost of na tuning worth the gain in

[stil bil]

ok, i have been thinking hard about this....and here is what i have found..

these numbers are from Import tuners september issue in power pages..

Stock                                             129.7 hp 144.9 tg
Unorthodox Racing ultra SS pully set    138.1 hp 150.9 tg
Injen Cold air intake                          143.2 hp 154.3 tq
5Zigen Fireball Catback                      146.8 hp 158.0 tq

total hp increase is 17.1 and total tq increase is 13.1

Cost:

Pully set- 479   i can get for                     410
Intake     390   i can get for                     288
exhaust   650   i can get mine(not fireball)  450
total      1519                                       1148  

add 330 for header and around 10 hp increasetotal hp increaseis 27 for $1478


Import Tuner:

every $90 spent gain 1 hp

me:

every $55 spent gain 1 hp

i cant find a high flow cat so that is not on the list....

Possibly a 50 shot of N2O supplied by NX for around 600
total          2078
hp inc.       77 from stock.... thats 206 total hp...

then a JWT ecu so 2578 for about 75 hp...


Turbo kit 4000-6000 for kit and supporting mods for about the same hp increase.....

this is just me brain storming....so take it as you will!!!!

[SaintlyCharBoy]

NA tuing is and always will be expensive, and while the innitial cost vs power as compared with a turbo setup is similar, the NA range plateaus out and becomes insanely expensive, whereas the forced induction route will allow much greater final yields

[stil bil]

this is really not a comparison between the 2 just wondering if you guys think that the cost per gain of na tuning is worth it up to a point, i really dont plan to turbo my car(waiting on my awd 1g dsm) but would like to make some respectable power at the wheels...

[BEISSEN]

Ok imo na tuning is no route to go unless you are rich.I would go with a turbo kit or a sr swap.But also please fx your signature cus what the heck is a sra it isa s"short ram intake".lol ahahaha i ma playing but plese fix it it is refered to as a sri.

[whateverjames]

the mods you mentioned minus the header and nitrous are supporting mods you would need for a nice turbocharged engine.

[jyt747]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BEISSEN @ Sep. 17 2002,3:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok imo na tuning is no route to go unless you are rich.I would go with a turbo kit or a sr swap.But also please fx your signature cus what the heck is a sra it isa s"short ram intake".lol ahahaha i ma playing but plese fix it it is refered to as a sri.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
hahaha... gotta be so detail oriented, huh? &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

but anyways, building up n/a is very expensive. there's a lot more stuff that you need to get other than what you listed. &nbsp;but you do get bragging rights if you can beat an sr with your n/a &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[stil bil]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (whateverjames @ Sep. 18 2002,2:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the mods you mentioned minus the header and nitrous are supporting mods you would need for a nice turbocharged engine.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
so what r u trying to say james &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[stil bil]

yes i agree you do have to be a whealthy person to build a non vtec or vvti 10 second nonturbo car, but you dont have to be rich to have a nicely moded na with respectable power...not including nitrous, it is only for track time...so i dont have the extra added stress of forced induction on my engine everytime i drive it...

[Kreator]

I've been doing these calculations myself some time ago. I was a bit more skeptical on hp values from upgrades, but my n/a figures came out to be a bit lower compared to the turbo kit. The only thing is that if you go n/a route, Each next hp will be harder and harder to get at. And after all your n/a mods, you'll realize that it's not enough. And you need some more. But at that point each next hp is like $100 <-- much more expensive than each addition turbo hp. Plus u said nitrous. Dont forget you have to refill it all the time. And turbo you can use all the time and won't have to spend additional money.

In the end, a 350rwhp car would run about $10 grand. An n/a 170rwhp car - about $2000. Do the math. 2000/40 = $50, 10000/230 = $43.5. So in the long run it's much cheaper. That's w/o talking about how much faster. I think most people choose n/a, cuz u can upgrade as money allows, and it's much easier than turbo.

BTW, those numbers are a bit wrong. that's what you would get with a stock sr. And u can luck out and get one for the same $2000. You can put up a turbo kit for ka (from brand new parts) for around 2800 and that would be decent till about 250rwhp.

[Apparition]

Just try and figure out what you want to do in the long run. If you want a relatively fast car, I think your n/a is the way to go. To get a real rocket, go the turbo route. Oh, and if you've ever drove a turbo car, you'll want turbo so bad. Pssssssh. Its addictive. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[240 2NR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (stil bil @ Sep. 18 2002,3:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes i agree you do have to be a whealthy person to build a non vtec or vvti 10 second nonturbo car, but you dont have to be rich to have a nicely moded na with respectable power...not including nitrous, it is only for track time...so i dont have the extra added stress of forced induction on my engine everytime i drive it...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I assume you're talking about a 4 banger import motor here. &nbsp;If so a 10 second car is not really streetable anymore. &nbsp;If it's not streetable, VTEC is pointless. &nbsp;Do people really street drive a NA 10 second honda? &nbsp;The whole point of vtec is to maintain dual cam profiles for both low and high rpm performance and fuel economy while retaining top end power/breathing with a smooth idle. &nbsp;Traits that don't all come from one profile. &nbsp;Build a dedicated track car and street ability is out the window, who cares about how lopey it idles. &nbsp;Once you're green, the car won't be below 5k until after the finish line. &nbsp;If low rpm performance isn't of value, neither is the added valvetrain mass in your highly tuned 10 sec NA car, so why retain vtec?

[AceInHole]

all i can say is...

NA response >>>>>>(very much greater than) turbo

NA power <<<<<<(very much less than) turbo

[stil bil]

yes i agree that when you want to build a 350hp car then it is cheaper to go turbo or even supercharger than to go na...

but if all you want out of your car is around 150 hp to the wheels for daily driving.....then 1500-2000 is ok by me....

anywho my plans as ststed before are for a 1g awd dsm....thats where my turbo mods come in &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[stil bil]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Apparition @ Sep. 18 2002,4:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, and if you've ever drove a turbo car, you'll want turbo so bad. Pssssssh. Its addictive. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i have driven many and do want one.....

[SilviaDriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (stil bil @ Sep. 18 2002,12:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok, i have been thinking hard about this....and here is what i have found..

these numbers are from Import tuners september issue in power pages..

Stock 129.7 hp 144.9 tg
Unorthodox Racing ultra SS pully set 138.1 hp 150.9 tg
Injen Cold air intake 143.2 hp 154.3 tq
5Zigen Fireball Catback 146.8 hp 158.0 tq

total hp increase is 17.1 and total tq increase is 13.1

Cost:

Pully set- 479 i can get for 410
Intake 390 i can get for 288
exhaust 650 i can get mine(not fireball) 450
total 1519 1148

add 330 for header and around 10 hp increasetotal hp increaseis 27 for $1478


Import Tuner:

every $90 spent gain 1 hp

me:

every $55 spent gain 1 hp

i cant find a high flow cat so that is not on the list....

Possibly a 50 shot of N2O supplied by NX for around 600
total 2078
hp inc. 77 from stock.... thats 206 total hp...

then a JWT ecu so 2578 for about 75 hp...


Turbo kit 4000-6000 for kit and supporting mods for about the same hp increase.....

this is just me brain storming....so take it as you will!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
first u started giving us numbers that was RWHP..then u added the header 10hp? thats probably flywheel same for the rest of the other mods u listed after the Header. if u want power, high hp turbo is the way. and NA setup is always expensive. and everything u listed was 206..mayb less than 206 too. and for turbo u can get a kit that puts down 240 at the wheels, forgot which one, think it was Nsport. and if u know how to install turbo it wont be 4-6gz. i know if i get a turbo kit for the KA, i got a couple of ppl who can do it free, tahts y it would be cheaper

[stil bil]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SilviaDriver @ Sep. 18 2002,5:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">first u started giving us numbers that was RWHP..then u added the header 10hp? thats probably flywheel same for the rest of the other mods u listed after the Header. if u want power, high hp turbo is the way. and NA setup is always expensive. and everything u listed was 206..mayb less than 206 too. and for turbo u can get a kit that puts down 240 at the wheels, forgot which one, think it was Nsport. and if u know how to install turbo it wont be 4-6gz. i know if i get a turbo kit for the KA, i got a couple of ppl who can do it free, tahts y it would be cheaper</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i listed no other mods past the header.. (and all numbers given were actual numbers tested by IT) and a header would prolly only add 5 or 6 hp, which is still 200 for around 2g right?

now take a turbo kit, Nsport is the kit you mentioned that puts down 240hp for 4g thats an extra 2g that it took to get 40 more hp.....now im not to knowlegable(SP) on what type of internal setups there is for the KA (cams, higher compression forged pistons, and things of this sort) nor do i know the cost of these items....but i would assume that it would be close to if not cheaper than 2g for a good motor build up of the KA then considering since boost is so addictive you would want to build up the ka or do the necessary fuel mods and send the price of a turbokit from nsport to 5795...and the kit with the buildup parts(pistons rings and rods will cost enough to buy a thirld world country a little over 7000 dollars granted this could yeild numbers around 300-400hp but for almost 6k....when i could build a na ka to have around the same amount of power depending on the extent of internal mods and size of n2o shot....

*playing devils advocate os cool* <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[DSC]

I can't see you getting near 200rwhp w/out cams and ecu reprogram. &nbsp;And still, I doubt you'll have 200rwhp. &nbsp;If this is just your daily driver, i/h/e + a couple others may be fun and worth the $2k but your much mor limited than turbo. &nbsp;I say, you get some 11:1 pistons, individual throttle bodies and a whole bunch of other really cool/expensive stuff like that <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'> but ya know, its your car, do what you like <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[tnord]

a NA car with the same power as a turbo car is faster, period. it all depends on how much power you "think" you need. FI is so archaic compared to tuning of a NA motor, but unfortunately, it still provides larger gains.

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (stil bil @ Sep. 18 2002,4:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but if all you want out of your car is around 150 hp to the wheels for daily driving.....then 1500-2000 is ok by me....</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah, but at some point you'll realize that 150 isn't fun anymore (and i'm 100% sure it will happen) and then u are gonna be stuck, cuz to continue with n/a route will be more and more expensive as u go

tnord - true, but turbo is still less archaic than building a 10L fuel whore. Yet those provide even larger gains <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[Apparition]

When is there such a thing as too much horsepower? I know I'm already sorta bored of my 134 sohc engine, but it still makes me giddy. And I've driven a 250 hp car, its giddier yet. How giddy can you get? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> Like when is enough, enough?

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (stil bil @ Sep. 18 2002,5:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i listed no other mods past the header.. (and all numbers given were actual numbers tested by IT) and a header would prolly only add 5 or 6 hp, which is still 200 for around 2g right?

now take a turbo kit, Nsport is the kit you mentioned that puts down 240hp for 4g thats an extra 2g that it took to get 40 more hp.....now im not to knowlegable(SP) on what type of internal setups there is for the KA (cams, higher compression forged pistons, and things of this sort) nor do i know the cost of these items....but i would assume that it would be close to if not cheaper than 2g for a good motor build up of the KA then considering since boost is so addictive you would want to build up the ka or do the necessary fuel mods and send the price of a turbokit from nsport to 5795...and the kit with the buildup parts(pistons rings and rods will cost enough to buy a thirld world country a little over 7000 dollars granted this could yeild numbers around 300-400hp but for almost 6k....when i could build a na ka to have around the same amount of power depending on the extent of internal mods and size of n2o shot....

*playing devils advocate os cool* <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ok yeah, at a turbo kit at 7 psi will prolly cost more than the n/a setup with no2. But don't forget that no2 bottles got to be refilled. and also don't forget that it would take ~300-400 to bring the 7 psi to 10psi, what is approximately 280hp. Now that's 40hp for $400. thats $10/hp. Beat that with n/a setup <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> Finally, again u are talking turbo kits. But if you actually do some research when trying to buy a turbo, you'll figure out that u can put a decent one together for like $3000 (meaning use of fpr). The list i got came out to $4500, but that's stage 2 with all the better parts that fmax doesn't offer.

[allmotorKA]

Sometimes its not all about the most power per dollar...sometimes its about doing something different. Lets face it, if power and speed were the only thing that were important, then we should all sell our 240SX's and ride a Hybusa.

I for one, admire anyone who choses the NA route to extract power in creative and intelligent ways...its not always about money either, its about being resourceful and innovative. And when you finish a nice NA motor project you will truely have a unique 240SX.


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/p4c98837dd5776f8aacf3c4d1e52acf0f/fda6777e.jpg

[nrcooled]

The idea of an all motor KA would be cool the thought of an turbo KA would be cool.....BUT my decision to go w/ the SR was easy. &nbsp;60hp gain and total out of pocket expence was $5000 including car. &nbsp;Any project that is concieved correctly can save you mad cash and research, research, research. &nbsp;Exhaust any and all avenues. &nbsp;

hell I was about to hit the buy button on headers at Enjuku when I thought to myself "self get yourself a damn SR" <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[adey]

Did any of you see the NA-tuned triple rotor RX7 Mariah (SA22C was it?... I forget the code) in a recent Option (or was it Young version...) magazine?
Now THAT thing was SWEET!! BTW aAllmotorKA is that yours?! &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[allmotorKA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (adey @ Sep. 19 2002,3:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did any of you see the NA-tuned triple rotor RX7 Mariah (SA22C was it?... I forget the code) in a recent Option (or was it Young version...) magazine?
Now THAT thing was SWEET!! BTW aAllmotorKA is that yours?! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes, that is my motor...but I'm still working out some of the bugs like fine tuning the fuel maps and looking into maybe a vacuum/mechanical advance distributor. I plan on putting it on the dyno within the next few months. I will post dyno results afterwards...

[misnomer]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Oh, and if you've ever drove a turbo car, you'll want turbo so bad. Pssssssh. Its addictive.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I've driven one, and don't wouldn't go out of my way for one. Turbo motors are great and powerful and all, but I like my power there from the instant I put my foot on the accellerator, not needing to spool up the turbo.

I wanna know more about your car, allmotorKA. . . Looks to be SOHC KA with individual throttle bodies, upgraded fuel system, can't tell much beyond that. Looks very very impressive.

[Kreator]

Yeah yeah, nobody is saying that n/a motors are bad. They are fun and surely more impressive than turbo. but if you read the topic again it says: "Is the cost of na tuning worth the gain in, performance....apposed to a turbo kit..." that to me means exactly $/hp and you can't beat a turbo with n/a tuning at that.

[Anubis]

The original concept car of the 350Z was a modified 240sx. Back in 99 it was know as the "New 240Z" and it had a slightly modified KA24DE that put out 200 horses. It says the only thing they changed was the camshafts, intake, exhaust and compression ratio. Just thought I'd add that in.

[DrDubbleB]

$8,000 = 280rwhp NA KA24DE
$8,000 = 380rwhp KA24DET

Ehh...the fact that you are squeezing 280 all motor hp out of the KA would be mighty impressive, and it would beat a lot of things on the road and on the track (assuming you have the suspension to go with it). &nbsp;It all comes down to what you want.

[SR20Fastback]

Toga Toga Toga Toga Turbo Turbo Turbo Turbo Turbo Turbo Toga Toga Toga


heh supposed to wear Toga's to school tomorrow &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DrDubbleB @ Sep. 19 2002,8:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">$8,000 = 280rwhp NA KA24DE</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Is that even possible??? Know of anyone who've done that?? That's impressive.

[DrDubbleB]

Yes, it's possible, there's a shop that I have a catlogue of that will do it...it's their highest stage of tuning for the KA...I'll have to dig for that thing...if I had the money, that's what I'd be doing.

[allmotorKA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (misnomer @ Sep. 19 2002,5:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wanna know more about your car, allmotorKA. . . Looks to be SOHC KA with individual throttle bodies, upgraded fuel system, can't tell much beyond that. Looks very very impressive.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah its a KA24E with TWM individual throttle bodies. I also have a worked head with a Nissan Motorsports "R4" cam, HS header and N1 exhaust. Because the ITBs do not use an MAF sensor, the fuel injectors are controlled by a Haltech F9A ecu. The ignition is still controlled by the stock ECU...that's why I'm looking into changing the distributor to a mechanical/vacuum advanced type (still doing research on the best alternative distributor).

I'm not to happy with the HS header (I think the runners are paired improperly) and may end up just porting the stock exhaust manifold and using that. We'll see...stay tuned.

[kextyn]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (allmotorKA @ Sep. 20 2002,02:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (misnomer @ Sep. 19 2002,5:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wanna know more about your car, allmotorKA. . . Looks to be SOHC KA with individual throttle bodies, upgraded fuel system, can't tell much beyond that. Looks very very impressive.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah its a KA24E with TWM individual throttle bodies. I also have a worked head with a Nissan Motorsports "R4" cam, HS header and N1 exhaust. Because the ITBs do not use an MAF sensor, the fuel injectors are controlled by a Haltech F9A ecu. The ignition is still controlled by the stock ECU...that's why I'm looking into changing the distributor to a mechanical/vacuum advanced type (still doing research on the best alternative distributor).

I'm not to happy with the HS header (I think the runners are paired improperly) and may end up just porting the stock exhaust manifold and using that. We'll see...stay tuned.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
There was some show like Two Guys Garage where they were building up an old Cobra. The only part I saw was about the distributor which was a mechanical/vaccuum advance type(I think). They build the distributor based on what you need...might wanna check into it. Their website is www.twoguysgarage.com and go to the second page of the previous shows. Its an DUI unit I believe. I'd love to find out more about doing an individual throttle body setup...I'm not much of a turbo guy and the idea of ITB is nice.

[Mtt22]

stil bill, you dont plan on using the DSM as a daily car right? just a hobby right? cause other wise it will just break and you will start investing alot of money into tow trucks. &nbsp;Fast cars, but majorly unreliable.