Differnce between Blktop O2 and Redtop O2?

[King 240]

I had a Blktop SR and was sent a "Red/Black" top SR when I ordered my new motor.

The reason I'm unsure is because the engine had a redvalve cover on it, it also has the skinny type O2 sensor, however, it has the vents on the head like the Blktop heads.

I was wondering if there is a difference between swapping the O2 sensor from my blktop which is a fat type instead of using the Redtop skinny O2?

Connectors are the same didn't know if they read different, both are 3 wires.

[Sir]

fat/skinny are interchangable as long as it fits (most aftermarket elbows are setup for fat type and plug to drill if you got a skinny).

Hope this helps.

[King 240]

Thanks man, thats kind of what I figured, I just wanted to be sure.

My main concern is that I'm on a time frame and can't really wait to ship a motor back and wait for another.

So going with the research I've done, I shouldn't have a problem using this motor with my blktop harness. Its believe to be a late model Redtop, one of the last runs.

I've got the Power FC so I was mainly worried about that working with this motor, but I should be fine.

[Sileighty_85]

you can use a Black top harness on a red top but you also need to use the ECU for that harness cuz the Black top ECU pin outs are little bit differnt so if your using a black top harness make sure you use PFC for the Blacktop

[unicoladron]

think about this for a second..
MAYBE! whoever originally had your engine and my engine were friends..

cuz i'm pretty sure i have a redtop, but i have a blacktop vc, and i had the skinny o2 sensor with the skinny dump pipe, and no fins on my head. so let's trade and get everything back to normal!

[King 240]

hahaha

I got the motor in and all is well minus a few things

the cam is making some squeaking noise every no and then. My tech sais that it could be cause the motor has been sitting and it has to get rid of grime and stuff.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

cuz the Black top ECU pin outs are little bit differnt

Incorrect, unless you're talking about the late model (Kouki) blacktop SR (or possibly the S14 blacktop as well). ECUs from earlier S13 blacktops (94-96) can be used with S13 redtop harnesses without issue. It's the 97-98 S13 blacktop type X ECU that requires a 97-98 wiring harness because of the different pinout.

Also, I've received conflicting information on whether or not a fat O2 sensor will work properly with a redtop ECU. Most people say that it'll work fine, still others say that it won't. It will definitely work, but I can't say for certain that it will work quite as well (meaning, your gas mileage may suffer etc) as a skinny sensor.

I just installed a new skinny sensor to run on my redtop ECU, Bosch part #13791 for an 86 NA 300ZX; I'll try to remember to let you know how it works out =P

Also, if you end up buying a new skinny sensor, do NOT just order one for an '87 300ZX turbo as it says in the FAQ. At least not if it's a Bosch. You'll end up with a square plug instead of a flat one, which could work...if you feel like cutting the plug off and soldering the wires yourself.

[garagelu]

Just because it has fins on the head doesnt tell you everything. Late model redtops also have fins on the head. The accurate way to check redtop/blacktop is by looking at the pistons and see if they are 54c or 79e. Also the a/c compressor and bracket can tell you also.

[DJ_Sunrise]

King 240 you scammer! I'm glad you are showing your face again. So how long do I have to wait till you send me a reply saying you are soooo busy that you cant send me my sr transmission? Please guys, avoid this douche bag. Do not buy from this faggot scammer. Please do not deal with this scammer. I bought a transmission from him 10 months ago. Search for my posts for the S13 transmission. You will see I did. He took my money, and he NEVER sent me a transmission. He simply ran. I live in NJ, he lives in Texas... Obviously I cant go break his legs, but trust me I would. I reported him to paypal, but it was too late. He kept making promises, and then he went on vacation, and then and then.. and then I never received my transmission. Always something but no transmission. He kept on making excuses constantly, saying things like "be patient". If you would like more information, I have ALL PMs, emails, and I will even provide proof through paypal. His real name is Steve Ellis.

Here are some emails. Here is one of the First. I tracked him down to a texas 240sx forum.

1)
Bart,
Excuse the time of contact as yes I have been busy with alot of stuff and
this was last thing on my mind. I can't get into my zilvia account thus I
CAN'T get any information. So lets try this again, need your address.

Sorry for the complications,
-Steven-

2)Its cool man, I completely would have to agree with you I'd be pretty pissed
as well.
So lets get this taken care of ASAP.

Whats the address?

-Steve-

3)Personally dude I've been trying to get this resolved and have asked you to be patient, I understand you are upset about the whole situation but I'm sorry if I have other things coming at me with more of a need to be taken care of.

Do what you want, I'll get to it when I can.


From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Hello
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:50:34 +0000

Since you have been completely ignoring me, I have decided to take further action. By Jan 1st, I assure you that you will be known as a con, and a scammer on the texas forums. If I do not receive a paypal refund by then, and I several other members from your forums will post every email, and instant message I have had with you. We will send all the emails and IM's to other administrators. Thank you for screwing me out of my money. Seeing you squirm will be pleast. I wish you the worst of luck. May you be damned from here on out.

-Bart (The guy whose money you stole)


There are many more emails. All with the same theme, ohhh im sooooo busy, I dont have enough time. But I bet you had enough time to spend my money you son of a bitch. one day im going to pay you a visit in texas you faggot. I tried both getting my s13 sr transmission from him, and trying to get my money from him. Nothing worked.

-Bart



You fucking cocksucker!!! you said you dont have the money to reimburse me, yet you have money to buy replacement parts and you make money from selling parts? wow. SEND ME MY TRANSMISSION OR SEND ME MY MONEY!!!

[jskateborders]

you can use a Black top harness on a red top but you also need to use the ECU for that harness cuz the Black top ECU pin outs are little bit differnt so if your using a black top harness make sure you use PFC for the Blacktop
Only j4 and j5 ecu's give you any real problems. Most black/redtop ecu's are pinned the same though

[iHeartTheTouge]

youll never get your money nor your transmission back. its happened to me before.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

stuff

That sucks and all, but...this thread is 6 months old. He's got current posts all over this forum; why this thread?


edit: Never mind, I see you've posted in those too. Carry on.

[g6civcx]

Search my post for o2 sensor info.

[UNISA JECS]

fat/skinny are interchangable as long as it fits (most aftermarket elbows are setup for fat type and plug to drill if you got a skinny).

Hope this helps.


WRONG...........

[g6civcx]

WRONG...........

How so? Please explain.

[njd07]

give the man his money back you fucking scum. you should be banned from zilvia.

[DJ_Sunrise]

Thank you NJD07, and thank you everyone for the support. I an sorry I have to post this stuff everywhere.. But he is currently selling parts on these forums, and I do NOT want anyone to fall for his shit. He apparently has a tendency to sell a few small things, and never deliver on large items. If anyone has recently bought from him, I would appreciate it if you could provide me with his current address. Here is what his room mates had to say...

1)
I used to be roomates with steve in tx, believe me he does to you what he does to pretty much everyone else. I believe he sold the sr tranny to someone in tx. I have his address in college station for ya incase you decide to take a road trip for an ass whooping. me and his other former roomate are still owed alot of money for the deposit and shit. he scams alot of people on houston240sx.com and texasnissans.com if you feel so inclined to rant there about his shaddy dealings, but they already know
here ya go

Steve J Ellis
701 Hereford st.
College Station, TX
77840

oh and I believe this is still his cell number 979-492-9222. and heres his moms number 979-492-6936

any other info you might need feel free to ask for it. if I can help in anyway let me know.

enjoy

2)
believe me it was always something when it came time to pay the rent and utilities, he was nowhere to be found for weeks, we always had to cover it. he recently bought rims for his car and a new sr20 so Im pretty sure he had the money to ship your tranny. if you want to post about him being a fraud on other forums and screwing people go ahead. search some of those sites as well for plenty of threads on him screwing people there in tx. no need to make a list of parts or anything, I did it as, lets say a professional courtasy to someone who feels your pain. anything else you may need let me know.

These were both written by his room mates. My next step is to report him to the FBI internet crime watch. I will keep everyone informed.

-Bart

[SHIFT_*grind*]

How so? Please explain.

A redtop will run with a blacktop O2, but it's still not the correct sensor for the ECU. You'd probably pick up a few MPG by using the right sensor.

[KiLLeR2001]

Its to my understanding it'll work, but won't work properly... Redtop O2 is titania and Blacktop O2 is zirconia.

[g6civcx]

A redtop will run with a blacktop O2, but it's still not the correct sensor for the ECU. You'd probably pick up a few MPG by using the right sensor.

What is the difference between a fatty and a skinny sensor other than the thread size?

Its to my understanding it'll work, but won't work properly... Redtop O2 is titania and Blacktop O2 is zirconia.

What is the difference between titania and zirconia?

[UNISA JECS]

What is the difference between a fatty and a skinny sensor other than the thread size?

One works off a 0-1 volt scale (fatty) the other works off a very wide range of resistance (skinny).

[g6civcx]

One works off a 0-1 volt scale (fatty) the other works off a very wide range of resistance (skinny).

Are we both talking about skinny 3-wire redtop O2 sensors?

This? http://phase2motorsports.stores.yahoo.net/oems1sr20det1.html

What does the ECU expect to see on the O2 sensor signal wire for each type?

[UNISA JECS]

(Fatty Zirconia)
In the case of the ECU it expects to see a 0-1 volt signal osciallating in closed loop and ignores o2 signal in open loop (WOT).

(Skinny Titania)
Variable resistance much better than the Zirconia and quicker to respond to changes probably only 5% of all production cars come with these sensors.

[g6civcx]

(Fatty Zirconia)
In the case of the ECU it expects to see a 0-1 volt signal osciallating in closed loop and ignores o2 signal in open loop (WOT).

I agree with this part.


(Skinny Titania)
Variable resistance much better than the Zirconia and quicker to respond to changes probably only 5% of all production cars come with these sensors.

On the redtop which supposedly has the titania, what is the function of each of the 3 wires going to the O2 sensor?


I don't mean to be a dumbass, but there is a lot of misconception on this topic.

[nizm0_kid]

well i kno as far as performance there is no difference but if it were me i would take a black top because its a newer motor. redtops came out first on the olser 240s then came black top...newer motor less miles ect...need i say more

[KiLLeR2001]

What is the difference between a fatty and a skinny sensor other than the thread size?

What is the difference between titania and zirconia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

[180sxLove]

1 is ground, 1 is power, and 1 is for the heater

[g6civcx]

1 is ground, 1 is power, and 1 is for the heater

According to this, how does the ECU read the sensor signal because there is no ECU signal wire, or is that what "power" is? What is your source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

Is this your source?

If your assertion is true, what does the ECU expect to see at the o2 sensor signal wire for each type?

[KiLLeR2001]

According to this, how does the ECU read the sensor signal because there is no ECU signal wire, or is that what "power" is? What is your source?



Is this your source?

If your assertion is true, what does the ECU expect to see at the o2 sensor signal wire for each type?

Redtop ECU's provide the voltage to the Skinny O2 titania sensor and the resistance in the sensor changes based on rich/lean. The Zirconia sensors have their own voltage they send to the blacktop ECU and the ECU reads that and the rich/lean condition is adjusted... This is what I've always known but if you care to prove me wrong by explaining I'm all ears.

[g6civcx]

Redtop ECU's provide the voltage to the Skinny O2 titania sensor and the resistance in the sensor changes based on rich/lean. The Zirconia sensors have their own voltage they send to the blacktop ECU and the ECU reads that and the rich/lean condition is adjusted... This is what I've always known but if you care to prove me wrong by explaining I'm all ears.

I don't want to prove anybody wrong. I just don't want a lot of bad info floating around.

Remedial info in my post: http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=113925

This is the only thing that matters:
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=113925

This is what the ECU sees at O2 sensor signal pin. The ECU doesn't care how the sensor actually works; only that .9 or more V, i.e. the presence of voltage, indicates a rich condition and 0V, i.e. the absence of voltage, indicates a lean condition.

While I agree that there are different materials used in the sensor, and each type has its own pros and cons, but in general, referring back to the ECU, this is all that the ECU expects to see. While it's also true that some types responds more quickly than other, but again, narrowband is very inaccurate so the ECU pulses O2 signal timing to get an aggregte reading.

With all SR motors, the O2 sensor has 3 wires: 2 non-polar power and ground for the heating element, and 1 for the signal wire. See my link above for this info.

The misunderstanding is in the fact that some manufacturers say that you shouldn't interchange O2 sensor type. This applies to severe duty or marine application where one works submerged in water while the other doesn't. In this application, only the functional submerged type can be used.

If you disagree with me, put a multimeter, or better yet, use a datalogger, on the O2 sensor signal wire for a fatty and a skinny and compare the reading to a wideband running at the same time. See what you get.

[KiLLeR2001]

I don't want to prove anybody wrong. I just don't want a lot of bad info floating around.

Remedial info in my post: http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=113925

This is the only thing that matters:
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=113925

This is what the ECU sees at O2 sensor signal pin. The ECU doesn't care how the sensor actually works; only that .9 or more V, i.e. the presence of voltage, indicates a rich condition and 0V, i.e. the absence of voltage, indicates a lean condition.

While I agree that there are different materials used in the sensor, and each type has its own pros and cons, but in general, referring back to the ECU, this is all that the ECU expects to see. While it's also true that some types responds more quickly than other, but again, narrowband is very inaccurate so the ECU pulses O2 signal timing to get an aggregte reading.

With all SR motors, the O2 sensor has 3 wires: 2 non-polar power and ground for the heating element, and 1 for the signal wire. See my link above for this info.

The misunderstanding is in the fact that some manufacturers say that you shouldn't interchange O2 sensor type. This applies to severe duty or marine application where one works submerged in water while the other doesn't. In this application, only the functional submerged type can be used.

If you disagree with me, put a multimeter, or better yet, use a datalogger, on the O2 sensor signal wire for a fatty and a skinny and compare the reading to a wideband running at the same time. See what you get.

I see what you're saying but my question to you is, will the blacktop zirconia o2 sensor be as efficient with the redtop ECU instead of the skinny titania o2 sensor? (and vice versa).

[UNISA JECS]

Anyone reading this thread can atleast take this much from it, neither the skinny or fatty o2 sensor's are compatable or interchangable with eachother and beyound the obvious physical difference, the actually wiring harness are different on skinny vs fatty wiring harness, the ECU im sure as well is looking for a different signal of sorts from the o2 sensor.

Also for people that run narrow band o2 sensor monitoring devices they are not compatable with vehicles equiped with skinny (titania) sensors.

[g6civcx]

Anyone reading this thread can atleast take this much from it, neither the skinny or fatty o2 sensor's are compatable or interchangable with eachother and beyound the obvious physical difference

Nobody is disputing this part.


the actually wiring harness are different on skinny vs fatty wiring harness

What is the difference between the 3-wire harness of the fatty vs. the 3-wire harness of the skinny?


the ECU im sure as well is looking for a different signal of sorts from the o2 sensor

Are you sure, or are you speculating? Again, not speculated by me, but confirmed by a lot of sources that this is the only thing that the ECU is expecting to see: http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=113925

Also for people that run narrow band o2 sensor monitoring devices they are not compatable with vehicles equiped with skinny (titania) sensors.

Are you insisting that skinny sensors are titania? If so, what is the function of each of the 3 wires going into the skinny sensor? How would someone know if their o2 sensor is zirconia or tinania?

[g6civcx]

Bump as I'd like to get some answers to my questions above.

I just spoke with a Nissan factory tech and he said that other than how quickly the sensor itself can respond, the ECU takes all the readings for a particular period and calculates an average. So this is pretty much what I suspected.

He also recommended upgrading to the Z32 fatty for all SR motors with stock ECU.


Anybody else can shed any more light on zirconia vs. titania, i.e. how to tell the sensors apart from each other?


Personally, I would really like to see a comparison readout of a skinny, fatty, and wideband all attached to the same engine.

[UNISA JECS]

Ok I know and can recall this much, if one were to run a fatty (zirconia) equiped ECU and wiring harness with a skinny (titania) sensor you would get voltage readings all over that place above 1 volt which wouldn't jive with what the ECU exspects to see. Sorry I can recall specifics on numbers as far as specs go I have learned this way back 2001 first hand with both types of ECU and harness and is why I know there is no interchangabilty between this parts. Ofcourse you may be able to rewire/repin some wires and around and make it work.

p.s. you gonna be hard pressed to find someone else speak on this subject as most people just dont know or care about things like this.

[wangan_cruiser]

blacktop has the fat bitch o2 and the redtop has the skinny bitch o2 :D

[UNISA JECS]

There may not be a difference inside the actual ECU, however it may just be a difference in the wiring/pinning on the harness side with respect to ground and voltage supply to sensors since we know zirconia generates its on voltage and titania does not.

[UNISA JECS]

blacktop has the fat bitch o2 and the redtop has the skinny bitch o2 :D

Everyone knows thats, but most dont know the harness is different and possibly the ECU but im not sure on that.

[nrg]

Anyone reading this thread can atleast take this much from it, neither the skinny or fatty o2 sensor's are compatable or interchangable with eachother and beyound the obvious physical difference, the actually wiring harness are different on skinny vs fatty wiring harness, the ECU im sure as well is looking for a different signal of sorts from the o2 sensor.

Also for people that run narrow band o2 sensor monitoring devices they are not compatable with vehicles equiped with skinny (titania) sensors.

the only difference is the size and type of sensor they are. BUT they are both interchangeable from the harness and works with both redtop and blacktop.
The pins and harness are the same on both.
http://phase2motorsports.stores.yahoo.net/oems1sr20det1.html

i've ran both the skinny and fat on my car and it made no difference. I end up running the fat one on my redtop harness, motor, ecu for the past 4 years with zero problems.

[g6civcx]

if one were to run a fatty (zirconia) equiped ECU and wiring harness with a skinny (titania) sensor you would get voltage readings all over that place above 1 volt which wouldn't jive with what the ECU exspects to see

There may not be a difference inside the actual ECU, however it may just be a difference in the wiring/pinning on the harness side with respect to ground and voltage supply to sensors since we know zirconia generates its on voltage and titania does not.

I would be interested in getting more info on this. If I gave you an O2 sensor, how would you know which type (zirconia or titania) it is? Is the difference strictly in the bolt size?

Both fatty and skinny have 3-pin wire harnesses. The middle wire is the ECU signal. The 2 outter wires are non-polar 12V+ and - for the heating element.

If the O2 sensor needs current because it is unable to generate its own, then it would need to draw power from one of the outter wires.

This much I know from experience. I ran fatty and skinny interchangably on my redtop ECU and noticed no difference. I'll admit that I did not log the data so I wouldn't know the difference any way.


Ofcourse you may be able to rewire/repin some wires and around and make it work.

I'm not sure you would need to repin. They all 3-wire harnesses and they all plug in.

p.s. you gonna be hard pressed to find someone else speak on this subject as most people just dont know or care about things like this.

I agree. There is a lot of confusion and most people just don't care enough.

[aNskY]

dude you have a power fc, get rid of the stock o2 and run a wideband! LC-1 is plug and play

[design240sx]

i have a s13 red top and using a black top fat o2 sensor.

[g6civcx]

dude you have a power fc, get rid of the stock o2 and run a wideband! LC-1 is plug and play

A wideband seems to be the best solution over the stock narrowband.