Calling Engine Builders...Copper Spray v.s Indian Shellac?

[AzNCmB]

Hey guys,

I'm about to install my head on my block. I'm using a cometic MLS hg on my ka24de build.
I searched around and found this thread: http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12348&highlight=indian+head+gasket+shellac
theres a lot of mixed reviews....

I was wondering what do you guys recommend to put on the mls hg before install and torque down of the head? Im looking for something that will help it seal, and prevent any leaks.... The head, block, and both upper/lower timing chain covers are all decked for a fresh clean polish surface.... (please experienced engine builders only)

http://inpcars.com/adhesives/permatex80697-gi.jpg

or

http://images.orgill.com/200x200/6911168.jpg

This motor that im building will see a lot of reving because my car is built mainly for drifting, autox, road course, and a little drag racing.

Please let me know, and only expirenced engine builders only please...


thanks

[onlyoneface]

copper spray bro

[burnsauto]

yeah i'd go with the copper spray as well. ivan really knows his shit...

[steve shadows]

coppy spray.

use if for the hg only.

[S14DB]

NOTHING

Make sure the matting surface is clean as a laboratory. The gasket in a can is used to fill in any imperfections in the machining. If everything was done correctly you shouldn't need anything. Copper spray is a band-aid.

Installing a COMETIC MLS (Multi Layer Steel) Head Gasket
The first thing you must do before installing the gasket, check all associated hardware thoroughly for nicks, scratches, or damaged threads as well as checking all threaded holes. If the hardware is inadequate or damaged, gasket failure may be eminent. Also change all the bolts and tap all threaded holes with the appropriate thread chase or cleaning tap. All hardware and mating surfaces should be free from any old sealers, rust, or carbon.
Check your dowel pins as they register the gasket and head into proper location. Replace worn or damaged dowels. The gasket mating surfaces must be smooth 50RA or finer. Additional sealer is not required with Cometic MLS Head Gaskets. The outer layers of the gasket are coated with a .001" thick coating of viton (a high temperature flouroelastomer).
Check brass rivet location to ensure the brass river does not interfere with the sealing surface on both the block and head. If the brass rivet needs to be removed a pair of side cutters will give the best results. Remove only the brass rivet.
Once the gasket is in position double check all passages and overall fitment paying special attention to the bore and chamfer. The gasket should not fall in the bore or lay on the chamfer area. A gasket lying on the chamfer or in the bore will most likely cause a hot spot and lead to pre-ignition, possibly causing severe engine damage or gasket failure.

[sunnys14]

No machinist is perfect and theres many out there who cant even deck a head and block correctly. Then torquing the head down comes into play, some people out there can't torque those properly also, not counting old torque wrenches and things like those. I personally would spray a thin coat of copper spray on both sides of the MLS gasket, let it set in for about a minute or two. Then I would go ahead with the torquing procedure. The copper spray should help with the imperfections, so something is better than nothing...

[rps13drift]

I have had excelent resulst with copper spray and a cometic gasket on my buddies ka-t! Its been running good and boosted to shit for almost a year and a half now

[misfitsfreak81]

NOTHING

Make sure the matting surface is clean as a laboratory. The gasket in a can is used to fill in any imperfections in the machining. If everything was done correctly you shouldn't need anything. Copper spray is a band-aid.

you said it perfectly, you shouldnt need to use anything on the HG

[steve shadows]

you said it perfectly, you shouldnt need to use anything on the HG

you guys are all building engines all the time right?

s14db and this guy?

big engine builders.

...

If your doing a Head Gasket, without the deck surface re-surfaced (ie the block) you should probably use some copper spray on the headgasket itself.

This is because if your polishing your deck by hand, which i have done unummerably times now, you cannot perfect a polish with shitty sand paper and rags/solvents.

Its a very suggested and reccomened band aid by engine builders who dont like having cry babies bringing their blown hg cars back to the shop 24 hours later.

---

If your decking the block surface, than use nothing. However remeber if you use NOTHING on the HG the black sticky material that comes on most JDM head gaskets that are actually worth using will soak into the deck surfaces and it will be impossible or hard to use this HG again, unless you spray it down with the copper the next time you replace it.


this is the fucking truth, I do it all the time, all the motors Ive built like this are doing 400whp all day long in a thong upsideown and sideways onshit gas.

---

or you can go to signal I heard they use JDM semen to insure the deck seals...thats the best (someone at HIN told me)

oh shannppp its got street cred!

[codyace]

No machinist is perfect and theres many out there who cant even deck a head and block correctly. Then torquing the head down comes into play, some people out there can't torque those properly also, not counting old torque wrenches and things like those. I personally would spray a thin coat of copper spray on both sides of the MLS gasket, let it set in for about a minute or two. Then I would go ahead with the torquing procedure. The copper spray should help with the imperfections, so something is better than nothing...

Or better yet, get a competent machinist and a good torque wrench, and skip the orange goo.

NOTHING

Make sure the matting surface is clean as a laboratory. The gasket in a can is used to fill in any imperfections in the machining. If everything was done correctly you shouldn't need anything. Copper spray is a band-aid.

Yep

This is because if your polishing your deck by hand, which i have done unummerably times now, you cannot perfect a polish with shitty sand paper and rags/solvents.

You just don't use good enough sandpaper ;)

Certainly though, if it's a non machined block, Copperspray will do the trick. I've done it on quite a few different engines, all with no issue. Now on newly decked engines, I use nothing. On cars using those cheapass shitty composite headgaskets, I use copper spray, deck or not.

Now there are those who argue that the copper spray 'isn't going to hurt anything' and use it regardless, but I've never done so.

[2bad240]

i say use nothing.

on my old sr's i never used anything on the hg, and i have reused a cometic before, and i never had a problem, and i have a greddy hg on my motor now, i didnt use any crap on it and it is ok.

[steve shadows]

Certainly though, if it's a non machined block, Copperspray will do the trick. I've done it on quite a few different engines, all with no issue. Now on newly decked engines, I use nothing. On cars using those cheapass shitty composite headgaskets, I use copper spray, deck or not.

.

bingooooooooooooooooooooooo

[xamraci]

I could tell you WHO not to ask...I agree with the last statement by codayace...as thats what my friends have done...

[AzNCmB]

the upper and lower timing chain covers, and both head and bock mating surfaces have been machined(decked) professionally...

but the bare motor/head and other parts has been sitting in my storage unit for at least 2 weeks now, and im just starting to assemble the parts...

thanks for all the replies...
i'll decide what i'll do once I finish prepping the head..

[S14DB]

you guys are all building engines all the time right?

s14db and this guy?

big engine builders.

I don't build engines. I let people that have been building engines for longer than I have been living build engines.

On the left is the "sandpaper" decking by another shop that couldn't hold a seal. The right is with the correct tool. It's like a mirror.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/S14DB/Machine%20Shop/BeltVSsurfacer.jpg

Funny thing is that the HG didn't ultimately kill the motor. Not sizing the wrist pins and the skirts dragging on the cylinder walls killed it. I have the rest of the pics somewhere.

[snappy]

NOTHING

Make sure the matting surface is clean as a laboratory. The gasket in a can is used to fill in any imperfections in the machining. If everything was done correctly you shouldn't need anything. Copper spray is a band-aid.

Is there anything wrong with using the Copper spray? I have to put a new HG on my 240 and don't want to have to do it again- so is there reason why you shouldn't put it on the HG, ie cuz it might fail with the copper spray on the gasket?
I am going to get the head resurfaced but I wont be getting the block resurfaced- I plan on using a razor blade and sand paper. Also, what grade of sandpaper should I use. Thx.

BTW, I plan on getting a Cometic HG.

[TheWolf]

I use permatex high tack spray #99ma. Pull the specs on the industrial permatex catalog and you'll find it holds temps better than copercoat.. resists oil and gas.. and holds to a much higher pressure...

[racepar1]

Really you shouldn't need anything as long as the head and block have been machined, but if you want to be safe use the copper spray. Copper spray is great if your car has a metal intake manifold gasket that you wanna re-use (or any other metal gasket). You just clean the old gasket, spray it with copper spray, and install it! No leaks guaranteed!

[nissan240sxkid]

I use permatex high tack spray #99ma. Pull the specs on the industrial permatex catalog and you'll find it holds temps better than copercoat.. resists oil and gas.. and holds to a much higher pressure...

I agree....I also use the permatex

[snappy]

But would you use it for a head gasket? Also, I know this sounds ghetto but could you use the permatex to repair a blown HG for short term use?

[BlazedGlory]

I have yet to see a reason other than "you don't need to if everything is clean/smooth," but is there a reason not to do it just to make sure? If everything is decked, cleaned, etc. perfect, what is the benefit of not using the copper spray over using a little "just to make sure?"

[bo2o]

so what sand paper do you? and what blcok?

my block is decked. but not my head. what should i do?
this is on a ka.
just copper on one side of the gasket? HAHA
my head was checked but not surfaced. guy told me is good. but doesnt seem like he cleaned it very well.

lmk guys!

[S14DB]

so what sand paper do you? and what blcok?

my block is decked. but not my head. what should i do?
this is on a ka.
just copper on one side of the gasket? HAHA
my head was checked but not surfaced. guy told me is good. but doesnt seem like he cleaned it very well.

lmk guys!

Put the sandpaper down! Just get some acetone from Home Depot and clean it up.

[stupendousdanny]

indianhead is good but once you get it on your hands its hard to get off. we put that on my friends camaro worked out great.

[babowc]

I got both my head and block decked, but I'm going to clean it up real good and apply copperspray also.

Can't be too sure.

[240trainee]

I've used copper spray on the couple engines I have done, seemed like cheap insurance. worst case it does nothing, best case it helps out. Thats how it seemed to me.

[tig_tech]

I usually use no copper spray and use very little copper rtv around the timing chain to prevent leaking oil on the front of the engine.

Good torquing skills make all the difference too.

[babowc]

You need skills to torque down bolts?
lol.

Its just setting the wrench and following the torque pattern and double checking.

Anyways.. copper spray sittin in my room, ready to build the motor.

[tig_tech]

Yea, you dont know how many people ive ran into that dont use the torque pattern.

"Torque pattern? You dont need to do all that."

[verge513]

ok so what about the cheap-o hg. i got everything in a kit im not going to run boost, nos, drift, maybe led foot on highways and screw with people. but anyway i didnt dect either my head or block. but i replaced bearings and rings.. should i just use the composite head gasket? this is the only thing thats stopping me for completing my ka24de rebuild...and also about head bolt washers where can i get ahold of some? i had some play hide and seek. i lost the game...so what advice can you guys give me?