Defense Sec. Robert Gates is an asshole

[dert420sx]

Gates urges veto of troop-rest measure

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20806586/

So this new Asshole/Defense Sec. Robert Gates wants to limit the home stays of troops between deployments to Iraq. Wasn't there a law just passed saying they would have to stay home for 12 mos? Easy for a fat politician to say that cause he's not the one out there in the sand box for months at a time! This is the thanks our troops get for putting their lives on line? We're not even fighting an American war! We already got Saddam, wtf are our troops still doing there??

My younger bro is on his 2nd tour of Iraq already! And he was only home for 3 mos between deployments. Unfortunately for him, the law was passed after he got deployed the 2nd time. My bro is supposed to be home either this Jan. or Feb. and he was stoked when I told him of the new 12 month law. I don't want to tell him of this yet since I try to keep his spirits up everytime he calls.

[Farzam]

Wow, that's awesome.

[cdlong]

did you actually read the article you posted? it didn't say anything about limiting the home stay portion. the law requiring 12 months at home between deployments hasn't even passed yet, that's what the article was about. Gates suggested the president veto it after it passes the senate. and he should. as much as i agree that troops should spend more time at home, congress should stop trying to run the military, because they suck at it.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Just bring the draft back...nuff said...

[DRavenS13]

Just stop meddling in foreign affairs that have nothing to do with us. Religious wars were going on long before we were ever there, and they will continue to go on no matter what we do.

[cdlong]

yeah, cause anything outside our borders has nothing to do with us.

[DRavenS13]

There's plenty going on within our borders that needs addressing.

Before you take the speck out of someone's eye, you should take the splinter out of your own. That's what needs to happen.

[cdlong]

ignoring problems outside our borders because we have some within is just as stupid as ignoring internal problems because of external ones. borders are only on maps anymore, it's all one system.

i can see this getting political rather fast, i'll lay off.

[DRavenS13]

Agreed. I'll also lay off.

[Tenchuu]

**edit this was typed before the two prior posts**

There's plenty going on within our borders that needs addressing.

Before you take the speck out of someone's eye, you should take the splinter out of your own. That's what needs to happen.


yeah that is a pretty good idea. we should have waited longer/ never joined the world wars and all be speaking German right now. what would have happened if we jumped in at the start and smashed it before they got rolling good?

And you know the kid that everyone beat up and picked on in high school that would be the USx100000^76 if we just delt with out own issues and never proved we have some (if i'll be it vary little) resolve left to us. if we turn into much more of a country of spoiled brats blaming everyone else for our problems,we are going to get trampled on by other countries willing to get over themselves.

/rant

not being directed at you, that is general frustration that i have been having with the masses in general.

[614duece40]

easy for that piece of shit to say that, he's not over there busting his ass. i have two friends going through boot camp right now and i probally won't see them again for a long time.

[2ilvia]

WE should this, We should that, WE we we

sorry there is no WE anymore, its all about the new world order and one big english speaking united country,


seriously

[eastcoastS14]

congress should stop trying to run the military, because they suck at it.

lol I dont know what TV youve been watching but the executive branch hasnt exactly been doing wonders with the military either

This whole thing pisses me off cause Bush is saying he plans to keep forces there well past 2008, for what? Its no longer win the hearts and minds and bring democracy, the whole infastructure of Iraq continues to collapse and we continue to try and fix it...For fuck sake lets bring our Men and Women home and stop killing their men and women....We are stuck in a fucked up situation cause there is no real organization in that country and will most likely continue to collapse into chaos, which is our fault....but wtf the govt cant even tell us what we are doing there....maybe its time we admit that this situation is to far gone to repair in the foreseeable future, commit to fully aid in the reconstruction....start to withdraw and get outta there....I obviously am simplifying the situation way too much but I just want my friends home

[cdlong]

i didn't say anything about the executive branch doing a good job either.

[yokotas13]

Just stop meddling in foreign affairs that have nothing to do with us. Religious wars were going on long before we were ever there, and they will continue to go on no matter what we do.

yeah cause their religious beliefs didnt run into the WTC or the pentagon....

fuckign kids

[2ilvia]

yeah cause their religious beliefs didnt run into the WTC or the pentagon....

prove it was middle eastern terrorists, just prove it

[steve shadows]

Just stop meddling in foreign affairs that have nothing to do with us. Religious wars were going on long before we were ever there, and they will continue to go on no matter what we do.

global oil supremacy has everything to do with "us"

[illvialuver]

Just bring the draft back...nuff said...
are you serious? that would suck , that way our gov could force us to go to wars in which we don't want to ? that would suck. i really dont agree with us being a police state and tryign to control what other contries do, but its alll business to the politicians.

[HalveBlue]

This isn't a single facet issue. There are a multitude of factors involved in this war, just as in every war.

For some people it's about money, for some it's about religion or ideology, for some it's about revenge.

But going back to the original topic at hand, the Army is shooting itself in the foot if it thinks that perpetual extending tours in Iraq will solve its man power shortage. Soldiers aren't machines, they're still human beings. They succumb to the same psychological and physical stresses as the rest of us.

It's one of the great contradictions that in modern warfare those that lead the war effort are also likely to be the most removed from, and least likely to be affected by it.

[HalveBlue]

are you serious? that would suck , that way our gov could force us to go to wars in which we don't want to ? that would suck. i really dont agree with us being a police state and tryign to control what other contries do, but its alll business to the politicians.

That's because our society has completely failed in its ability and responsibility to enforce its own standards and laws.

The Constitution doesn't just grant the citizens of this country inalienable rights but also presents them with a huge responsibility: to act as the ultimate check and balance to the political system.

When a society has lost its ability to govern itself, through apathy and indifference, the democratic system is doomed to fail.

[NiGHTS]

unfortunatly this war is not going away. no matter what the next politician or next president of the united states promises the troops are not going to be pulled out anytime soon. i hate to see the men and women who fight for our country get shafted like this but the truth of the matter is no one will listen unless you go out and vote and make your voice heard. its easy to say we dont support this or that but what are you doing to help them.


think about it if the US pulls out now what will happen.
1. iran will probably take over.
2. some other religious leader will come in spit his shit all over and fuck that country up even more then what its fucked now.
3. the US will probably lose more allies. then again i think we already lost a few by staying in.

when your country is a super power the rest of the world looks to you for help. yes the U.S. is a super power. unfortunaly when some shit hole of a country is in trouble the first response team is usually the us navy/army/marine. think of this at a bigger picture.

* this is just my opinion. if i offend or piss anyone off ... oh well. yes i know grammer is poor but who cares.

[steve shadows]

I like being anti-war on FA Lounge

and totally PRO-WAR in Zilvia.

lets just say I like playing devils advocate.

seeing which way people bow.

Imho though we invaded wrong, the reason being saddam, oil security or regional base atainment is fine by me.

The invasion plan was flawed from the start. Instead of taking over each city around bagdahd and surrounding and strangling the capital city, we went to the capital city first then assumed by cutting of teh secular governemnts head it would make the rest of the country love us and want democracy.

thats a very dumbed down version of the strategy but it really is what they though would happen.

Now its a totally hell hole disaster.

[fliprayzin240sx]

are you serious? that would suck , that way our gov could force us to go to wars in which we don't want to ? that would suck. i really dont agree with us being a police state and tryign to control what other contries do, but its alll business to the politicians.


Look below...thats the reason why I say bring back the draft. Im also saying this cuz im looking at the issue from the armed forces point of view. Im not in the army or the marines but I feel their pain. Why? Because the more manning short falls they have, the more the AF side of the house gets to pick up the slack for it. Explain to me how the AF is cutting the force but doubling the work? Flight line is hurting for people, but they wanna force more people out of that career field. Now the Army needs more convoy runners from the AF, so the AF pulls more people from that career field to deploy for a year with the army to pick up the slack. How much fun do you think it is when you have one certified jet mechanic on a squadron of 20 jets?

This isn't a single facet issue. There are a multitude of factors involved in this war, just as in every war.

For some people it's about money, for some it's about religion or ideology, for some it's about revenge.

But going back to the original topic at hand, the Army is shooting itself in the foot if it thinks that perpetual extending tours in Iraq will solve its man power shortage. Soldiers aren't machines, they're still human beings. They succumb to the same psychological and physical stresses as the rest of us.

It's one of the great contradictions that in modern warfare those that lead the war effort are also likely to be the most removed from, and least likely to be affected by it.


On top of all this, the reserves and guards are stretched so thin, its not even funny. Imagine the people who had regular lives pulled under their feet and been activated since 9/11. Alot fo these guys suffer in every way possible, emotionally, physically and financially. Sure they have protection that when they come back to the civilian side, by law, they're jobs are still there. That doesnt mean they cant fire you a week later cuz you cant get back in the groove of your civilian job because your still shell shocked from Iraq. Yes, I personally know 2 people so far who got done dirty this way. One of them had a job that was paying him $100k a year to get activated and make E-5 pay. Yah that was freaking great making $2200 a month. The Sailors and Airmen Act barely does shiet.

Anyways, I dont have an answer for everything. I cant say we should bail on Iraq, I cant say we should stay either. This is a damn quagmire that turned into the new Vietnam War. Ironic how Bush said it himself that he doesnt want this to be the new Vietnam but its too late for it.

[Dirty Habit]

On top of all this, the reserves and guards are stretched so thin, its not even funny. Imagine the people who had regular lives pulled under their feet and been activated since 9/11. Alot fo these guys suffer in every way possible, emotionally, physically and financially. Sure they have protection that when they come back to the civilian side, by law, they're jobs are still there. That doesnt mean they cant fire you a week later cuz you cant get back in the groove of your civilian job because your still shell shocked from Iraq. Yes, I personally know 2 people so far who got done dirty this way. One of them had a job that was paying him $100k a year to get activated and make E-5 pay. Yah that was freaking great making $2200 a month. The Sailors and Airmen Act barely does shiet.

When you go national guard you recognize the possibility of being deployed. The military pays you to run around a couple times a year and thats it? No, you get paid to train and be willing to fight should the need arise. Your friend probably wouldn't have gotten the education or money to earn his 100k a year job without the guard. Its an investment by the military in a person. I dont understand how people bitch and complain about this. Does everyone join the gaurd thinking they will be paid to do nothing?

[DRavenS13]

I was gonna leave this alone, but I didn't appreciate being called a "fucking kid", so I'm gonna leave my say.


At this point, it's too late to leave. We've already caused so much upheaval that it would be stupid to leave those people fucked over. They need to stop focusing on "battling terrorists" and send more of the Peace Corps to help these people begin to heal. Build shit, get medical support, food, etc etc.... That's what all those billions of dollars should be used for, so we CAN get our troops out of there.

My point in my OP was that there WAS no reason for us to be there. Iraq had nothing to do with the WTC or anything like that. Where the hell is Bin Laden? You mean to tell me that you could find Saddam's ass in a hole in the ground (literally), but you can't find an old man on dialysis in the damn mountains? Wasn't that the whole point of being over there in the first place?

It all comes down to money, and how much there is in oil and natural gas in the middle east. I can talk about conspiracy theories all day, but it's irrelevant at this point. My other point was that we have people here that are still suffering the effects of Hurricane Katrina, 2 DAMN YEARS LATER, still living in crime-infested communities, not getting the money and supplies THEY need to rebuild, being forced to live in FEMA trailers that are making them sick- it's no wonder that suicide rates have doubled in the last 2 years there. But who really gives a shit about them when there are terrorists to be found????? We are also in a huge recession, unemployment rates are higher than they were before G-Dub came in, and Social Security is a mess. My mom is sweating the fact that she has to keep working for another 7 years before she can retire and be able to have enough money to survive. She just turned 60.

That's my whole point. There's still so much left to be dealt with here, it sucks that they take the country's POV off what's going on here and use smoke and mirrors to convince the people that what's going on over there is necessary.

I had a good friend in high school that went to the army when we graduated. This was in 2000. He's dead now, a casualty in Iraq. So this has affected me personally as well.

Send more troops? No. Initiate a draft? Hell no. My 0.02.

[fliprayzin240sx]

When you go national guard you recognize the possibility of being deployed. The military pays you to run around a couple times a year and thats it? No, you get paid to train and be willing to fight should the need arise. Your friend probably wouldn't have gotten the education or money to earn his 100k a year job without the guard. Its an investment by the military in a person. I dont understand how people bitch and complain about this. Does everyone join the gaurd thinking they will be paid to do nothing?

Actually, he got done dirty. He got out of active duty, went to the reserves for Palace Chase (he had a re-signing bonus his 2nd tour, if he didnt go reserve, he'd had to pay $10k back to the AF). He had a year and a half left active, to Palace Chase, he had to commit double whats left in his active duty contract to the reserves. He was civilian for 6 months when then tagged him to go back active duty for the rest of his Palace Chase time (2 years). So now hes assed out of a job, he got activated, he would have been better off staying active duty and being done sooner and actually still receive the rest of his Bonus. Now he's been stuck with a mortgage payment that he cant afford, and now he's finishing up his 2nd tour in Iraq.


PS: Just to let you know, Im active duty AF. Been in for over 6 yrs, in for the ride for atleast another 3.5 yrs. The way the military is being run now is horrible. Ops tempo is simply killing everybody...

[HalveBlue]

When you go national guard you recognize the possibility of being deployed. The military pays you to run around a couple times a year and thats it? No, you get paid to train and be willing to fight should the need arise. Your friend probably wouldn't have gotten the education or money to earn his 100k a year job without the guard. Its an investment by the military in a person. I dont understand how people bitch and complain about this. Does everyone join the gaurd thinking they will be paid to do nothing?

Let me just stop you right there and educate you since your post is half right and half stipulation.

First, 99% of Reservists/Guardsmen realize fullwell that they may be mobilized in a time of war.

That's not the problem.

The Army Reserve/National Guard originally had two separate missions and come from two different backgrounds.

The Guard evolved from state militias and the Reserve was originally created to have a corps of medical professionals at the ready in a time of war. In the latter, the theory was that in a time of war the need for medical personnel would naturally increase but would not be needed in peace time.

The Army eventually realized that the Army Reserve was a perfect vessel to house Soldiers that had performed some military service but would no longer be needed in peace time. In times of war this pool of personnel could then be readily reactivated without as much training or administrative action as fresh recruits.

This happened a lot until the end of the Second World War. At that time the Reserve was reorganized to perform the role of the "second wave" and homeland defence. That was all fine and good as people assumed the next big war would be an all out war with the USSR where the draft would conscript large numbers of the workforce anyway and the nation's economy would be committed to total war. Everybody would be affected by the burden of war.

After the Soviet Union collapsed the Reserve was once again reorganized. Without the USSR there was no longer a need for a huge Army (or at least so everyone thought) ready to fight another super power. Instead the focus in the Pentagon turned to shaping the force toward dealing with police actions and contingency operations a la Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, etc.

These types of operations were defined by low-intensity conflict, relatively low needs for manpower, and short durations.

So, the Pentagon reorganized the Army's three components along these lines: The Active Component would have a mix of Combat (Infantry, Armor, Field Artillery), Combat Support (Aviation, Field Artillery, Military Intelligence), and Combat Service Support (Administrative, Medical, Transportation) units, with a primary focus towards the first. The National Guard would be assigned all Combat Support roles, and the Reserve would be assigned the Combat Service Support Role.

When conflict broke out the Active Component would quickly mobilize its assets and establish a position in theater and deal with any combat threats. The National Guard would mobilize any additional Combat Support assets as needed and the Reserve would do the same for Combat Service Support. The theory was the CS and CSS units were not as critical as Combat units and thus could afford to be sent in later over longer periods of time.

The problem is this system is inadequate in dealing with a long duration conflict such as the one we're engaged in with Iraq and, to a lesser estent, Afghanistan.

This was a failure of the Department of Defense to properly evaluate the abilities of its services and tailor its strategy towards them.

With the current war, Reserve forces are being used at an unsustainable rate. The Reserve forces have subpar training and subpar equipment, and an undefined operational concept.

Under the old system utilizing personnel for years at a time wouldn't have been a problem because it was assumed the entire country would be at war. In the situation with Iraq only a small segment of the population is affected.

So when people are being mobilized for 24 months or more within a 5 year time frame you get a lot of part time Soldiers whose civilian careers are being destroyed.

If they knew they were going to become full time Soldiers they would've just joined the Active Component.

And that's the fundamental prolbem right there: the Reserve force concept is broken and unworkable in its current form. This is a lack of forsight on the part of the DoD and the government, not Reservists unrealistic expectations.

Cliffs Notes: The military is understaffed and the DoD didn't properly evaluate its capabilities for the type of conflict we're involved in and to say that it's the individual Reservists faults because they should have known better is rediculous.

[Avante]

^^ you sir, have my blessings.

posirep, where it is due.

The reserve component is jacked up right now. I have friends on their 3rd tour of duty in Iraq/afganistan, within a span of 4 years. One is a RN, and its just hard for him to even keep his job. DoD dropped the ball on this one. They should of evaluated the ability for the reserves and guard components to deploy, before engaging in an extended conflict.