View Full Version : Bilstein Fun
Wiisass
08-11-2007, 02:07 AM
I've been trying to figure out the best way to have a good damper setup for my s13. And before anyone says, just buy some off the shelf coilover, everyone is happy with them, remember who you're talking to.
I wanted something that I could revalve myself. It would be nice if it was adjustable, but if I can revalve them easier, then it wouldn't really matter. After using the Bilstein Take Aparts on my brother's supra and having great success, I wanted to figure out a way to do that for the 240. Unfortunately, that's easier said than done. Because of the strut in the front and the giant mounting point in the back, it makes things a lot more complicated than they were on the supra. So I started looking into off the shelf dampers that I could mess around with. I found the part numbers for the s13 bilstein stuff and for some reason, they aren't available in North America at all. So I had to order them from the UK and since the dollar sucks, it costs a little more than I wanted to spend.
Anyway, the front bilstein struts are inserts for the stock strut tubes. But they're also inverted already. They use a 36mm piston, which although it doesn't have the parts availability of the 46mm piston, there's still enough out there that I should be able to get the curves that I want.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2451-1/DSC00784.JPG
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2448-1/DSC00787.JPG
There are the 2 S13 Bilsteins. They're a little longer than I would like, but that can be accounted for in the strut tube. The yellow part is the part that goes into the strut tube and is bolted in at the bottom. It's a nice and simple design that with threaded strut tubes and threaded mounts could be used in a nice coilover setup.
So since I had to see what was inside, I ordered another front strut insert for a different car. I was able to find one with the same size piston, so hopefully there will be no differences besides some lengths and the valving.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2474-1/DSC00796.JPG
Here's the test one all taken apart. Getting the yellow tube off was a pain in the ass. There's a cap on the top, that I can't tell if it's threaded or pressed or what onto the threads that go through the bottom of the strut tube. I spent a couple hours last night, try to get everything apart. And finally, I was able to at least get the yellow sleeve off, but that cap is still stuck on the top. I don't think i'm going to be able to wait much longer until I say fuck it and just cut it off.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2476-1/DSC00797.JPG
Closer view of the shaft and piston. It's interesting that they use a longer shaft and a rebound bumpstop to get the shock to be the ride height for the application.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2478-1/DSC00798.JPG
And here's the inside of the tube with the shock body guides.
For the rear, instead of paying for the overpriced S13 rear stuff from the UK, I just went with the available Z32 rear shocks. I have a set of Z32 uprights around here somewhere and would like to use them and figured it would be the easiest way. I am still looking for another shock that uses the same rear mount as the s13. And I think I know of one that will, but I'm not sure yet.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2470-1/DSC00794.JPG
I don't have any pictures of the rears still together, but here it is apart.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2472-1/DSC00795.JPG
And here's the Z32 shaft and piston assembly. This one also uses a rebound bumpstop to get the ride height out of the shock. So instead of using a shorter shaft, they just put a spacer in there to get it to sit lower. Oh well, I have a bunch of shafts that will work in these shocks. The parts for these shocks versus the take apart shocks are the same. So everything I can order from them, I can throw in there. I already know I need different rod guides and I need to add a schrader valve to the body, but besides the valving, there isn't much else that would need to change. I will probably change the shaft though and just use a custom upper mount. But it's nice because there are a lot of options.
So this setup looks like it could be promising. With a little extra work it should come together pretty easily. There's just a couple small things I'm hung up on at this point. And then I need to make adapters so I can throw the S13 shocks on a dyno and see where I'm at for the baseline. It should be fun, and hopefully I'll be able to have this setup all done for testing before the season is over.
Aoshi112
08-11-2007, 10:13 AM
Hey that's awesome! I've been looking for a set of used bilsteins for my s13 to mess with for a long time but they're hard to come by. Keep up the good work! I'd love to have a custom bilstein coilover setup. My friend did it for his supra for under $900.
It would be great if we could make a custom bilstein coilover setup for our cars like here:
http://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446817
Wiisass
08-11-2007, 12:55 PM
If you noticed, I'm pretty active in that thread as well. I'm working on the full setup and hopefully putting together a kit won't be that bad. But with the shocks I'll end up using, they will need to be revalved, unlike the supra guys which are getting away with running off the shelf valving. Although, I still need to get the s13 inserts onto a shock dyno. Hopefully sometime this week I will be able to.
fromxtor
08-11-2007, 01:05 PM
I'm getting a Koni/ground control setup made right now. Bump for a better coilover setup than buying one off the shelf.
Aoshi112
08-11-2007, 01:13 PM
If you noticed, I'm pretty active in that thread as well. I'm working on the full setup and hopefully putting together a kit won't be that bad. But with the shocks I'll end up using, they will need to be revalved, unlike the supra guys which are getting away with running off the shelf valving. Although, I still need to get the s13 inserts onto a shock dyno. Hopefully sometime this week I will be able to.
Doh, i never noticed you were on there.
The revlaving shouldn't cost too much right? I think drew said it was about $60 per corner. Not too bad..
yeah, If I had a clue what any of that meant it would be cool :D
Wiisass
08-11-2007, 02:59 PM
Revalving from Bilstein isn't that much. But I'm working on setting these up so I can revalve them myself. I've been working with Bilstein stuff for over a year now. I put together a setup using their take apart dampers for my brother's supra. So I am very familiar with the valving and taking them apart and testing them. It would probably be simpler in the long run to just get them done at Bilstein, but that would take all the fun out of it. And I think they might be a little too conservative to put real agressive valving in a damper. The valving I'm using in the supra stuff, Is a lot more agressive than any of their standard digressive valving.
So right now, I'm going to make adapters to get the S13 inserts on a dyno to get a baseline reading of what they come with from Bilstein. I will probably also throw the Z32 piston and shims into another shock body and run them on the dyno as well to see what I'm starting with their. And depending on what I find out there, it's time to order new pistons and shims and get these things valved properly so I can start testing them.
a_ahmed
08-12-2007, 01:13 AM
interesting work u got going man, curious on where this goes, cool stuff.
RanciD
08-12-2007, 10:49 PM
Great to see someone knowledgeable working on a capable suspension for this car rather than buying some off the shelf JDM bullshit.
bigOdom1
08-12-2007, 10:56 PM
heres some shots of my GC/Koni setup the pics are of the front
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u283/odomandr/car/P4270016.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u283/odomandr/car/P4270014.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u283/odomandr/car/P4270013.jpg
AceInHole
08-13-2007, 07:32 AM
Nice work, man. Hopefully the take-apart hardware goes in smoothly. Are you going to do any experimenting with the take-apart add-on external res? Also, I recall you saying something about needing to add a fill valve for them. Have anything figured out for that yet?
There's a good writeup on 240sxracing.com about the Bilsteins, although the guy seems to not have followed up with the actual performance of them. He did section his strut to reduce droop travel, though:
http://www.240sxracing.com/images/Bilsteins/DSCN0848.JPG
Get that stuff done and we can do a side-by-side vs. some JDM crap. Your Bilsteins vs my Koni 8611's vs Megan/Stance/D2/poweredbymax/Tein/Etc. Should be fun times.
-PJ
Wiisass
08-13-2007, 02:59 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.
PJ, to fill, I'm going to use a normal schrader valve. I just need to order some and then either find weld on bungs for them or have them made. I would like to have it so the schrader valve could be removed and an external reservoir could easily be added. The Bilstein external reservoirs are kind of expensive, especially when compared to everything else they offer. I would like to test them out at some point though. But if I had to choose today, I would rather spend a little more and get the Penske reservoirs because they're proven to work well. And that would take care of compression adjustment. And there are adjustable shafts available out there for the rebound side. But I don't know if they have any available for the 36mm dampers. I hope they do, but I'm not sure. But then again, if the shock is dialed in correctly, adjusters wouldn't be needed. But a compression adjuster would allow you to run stiffer on smoother surfaces and soften it for any tracks with rougher patches or bigger bumps.
I can't wait to get them done and we can have an nice comparison. I would like to compare to some of the more popular setups. Hopefully it will happen sooner than later.
Tim
Aoshi112
08-13-2007, 09:07 PM
Hey Tim, from which UK dealer did you buy your bilsteins and if you don't mind me asking, how much were they?
Ninjabread
08-13-2007, 09:21 PM
Wow this looks like an interesting project. It's certainly not for the feint of heart, but it seems like you know what you're doing, and following your posts on Ziptied, I can't wait to see the outcome of these!
Wiisass
08-13-2007, 09:46 PM
Aoshi, I ordered through Demon Tweeks. They weren't the cheapest, but they ship to the US without much hassle, just a little extra money. The strut inserts were over $200 each and then shipping wasn't cheap at all. It sucked, but that's the price you pay for R&D.
Aoshi112
08-13-2007, 10:09 PM
Damn that sucks. I was trying hard to find a set of used ones from japan and have them revalved when i got them but they're hard to find used. :(
-Jason
crazyikimasho
08-13-2007, 10:15 PM
Tim, I heard if you ordered Zeals from me that it would be more than enough. But thats just what I heard :)
Wiisass
08-13-2007, 10:26 PM
Jason, yeah it sucks. Sometimes used ones will pop up, but they can be hard to find, that's why I decided to bite the bullet and do it this way.
Justin, I'm not ever going to respond to that. Besides this response. And maybe one a little later on.
AceInHole
08-14-2007, 05:47 AM
I still can't see how you think you're spending a lot on those... especially when the "next step up" for a self-rebuildable, quality shock is a Penske.
Anyways, for the schraders, the ones on mine are just 1/8" NPT. With droop spacers in there, you should have room to flush mount the bung. Otherwise, how large is the top mounting pin? Should be like an M14, right? I'd wonder if there's enough room to tap a 1/8" fitting on there.
steve shadows
08-14-2007, 10:16 AM
cool, subscribed
Wiisass
08-14-2007, 12:50 PM
I still can't see how you think you're spending a lot on those... especially when the "next step up" for a self-rebuildable, quality shock is a Penske.
Anyways, for the schraders, the ones on mine are just 1/8" NPT. With droop spacers in there, you should have room to flush mount the bung. Otherwise, how large is the top mounting pin? Should be like an M14, right? I'd wonder if there's enough room to tap a 1/8" fitting on there.
You're right, it's not that much. But I'm comparing the prices on this stuff to what I spend putting my brother's setup together on the Supra. So based on how much that cost and how much these are costing plus the extra work needed to make them take aparts it starts adding up a little. I am also trying to keep the cost on this down so if it does become something I can market, it's not pricing itself out of competition.
I was planning on just using 1/8" NPT schrader valves, but with the way the fronts are setup, there might be some packaging problems. It all depends on how the upper spring perch is going to sit and where the springs are going to be. I know where I want to put the schrader valve, I just need to make sure it's going to work with the rest of the system. It's just going to go on the side of the damper at the top, right before it necks down to go into the camber plate. I don't want to put it in the top mounting pin because it sees high loads and would be weakened with a big hole through the middle. I really just need to find some low-profile schrader valves and pair them with a bung I can sink into the damper body and I should be good.
Aoshi112
10-26-2007, 06:58 PM
Jason, yeah it sucks. Sometimes used ones will pop up, but they can be hard to find, that's why I decided to bite the bullet and do it this way.
Justin, I'm not ever going to respond to that. Besides this response. And maybe one a little later on.
Any updates on the project? Just when I was going to get some Konis, I finally got my hands on a set of used bilsteins! :D
Good stuff, subscribed...
Wiisass
10-27-2007, 09:27 AM
Sorry guys, been busy with cages and customer cars and all that boring stuff, so I haven't had the time for the fun stuff recently. But I did have adapters made so I could run the inserts on the dyno. And I will be dynoing the rear Z32 stuff at the same time, so I am on the way to getting these on a car and finding out how awesome they are compared to everything else I've driven on.
Tim
PoorMans180SX
10-27-2007, 09:45 AM
Wow, how did I miss this one?
I am so glad that there are knowledgeable people on this board doing stuff like this. I would have settled for some cheap coilover and suffered!
I need to get a book just on shocks.
veilside180sx
10-27-2007, 09:57 AM
Bilstein's site is hard to use...do you know of a shorter insert (around 11.5-12")?
Those are the same length as stock...
Wiisass
10-27-2007, 10:09 AM
Turbo711, I wish there was a book that I could recommend to you on shocks, but there really isn't much out there. The only book dedicated to shocks is The Shock Absorber Handbook by John Dixon and it's not as good as it sounds and it's pretty technical and not too much useful data.
Veilside, what do you consider the insert length. The yellow part that goes in the strut tube is 12". So some work with the tube and positioning of the ears is going to be needed to get these to sit a little lower, but that's expected. And as for a different insert, there aren't many options out there for a 36mm inverted monotube strut insert. There's a lot more for 30mm inserts, but those don't seem to have the support from the motorsports side of bilstein that the 36mm and 46mm dampers do.
Tim
a_ahmed
01-31-2008, 09:15 AM
yea i thought wiisass stopped this
95KA-Turbo
02-01-2008, 10:58 AM
So they were a no go or what? I'm interested as well.
Wiisass
02-01-2008, 11:11 AM
I haven't really done much with these since I got them. The dyno I was going to use to test them and revalve them fell through. And I've just been busy building cars and getting other stuff going that I haven't had time to mess with these.
For now, I will be sending them to Bilstein to be valved to my specs and then using stock strut tubes or making something real quick for testing. Then hopefully I will be making a full take apart setup using different dampers. But that might not even be worth it, it depends if this is something that people would actually buy or not. I mean they'll be better valved than anything else available, but that doesn't seem to mean too much to most people on here.
SoSideways
02-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Well, depending on the cost, and height adjustibility, if it were to cost as much as some of the more popular "JDM coilover" setups, I would gladly sell my stuff and get this in a heart beat.
Especially if you are talking about the possibility to upgrade in the future to a remote reservoir setup to have the ability to control compression and rebound separately.
Wiisass
02-02-2008, 04:03 PM
Well they would be single height adjustable because double height adjustable isn't needed if you put some design time into the overall length of the setup. They will be non-adjustable dampers for now, but they will be better valved than anything else out there. Pricing, I'm hoping for mid $1k probably a little more, depends on upper mounts and strut tubes and how I end up doing it.
So they would be more expensive and less adjuastable than the crap that's available now. But the spring rate selection would be better (8/6, 10/8, etc may not be the best setup) and the valving will be right, not all screwed up like everything on the market.
And they should be very upgradable in terms of rebound and compression adjustment.
Tim
inertiaticism
02-02-2008, 04:24 PM
What would be stopping someone from just retrofitting bilstein takeapart dampers into our strut tubes?
Even if they are sold as shocks and not inserts for McP struts, what is different about their internal construction that would prevent you from using them this way?
I don't see much difficulty in modding the bodies to fit in our strut tubes, but I figure you already looked into it and decided against it, are the standard Takeaparts not really beefy enough to take stress in the way that usage as a strut cartridge would impart upon it?
I'm curious because I can find these things very cheaply in my area because of circle track users.
That and revalvable Afco dampers.
Wiisass
02-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Nothing is stopping anyone from doing that. But also nothing will be stopping the damper from blowing or the shaft from bending or the strut from failing all together. A strut sees bending loads that a shock does not see. This is due to the strut being a locating suspension member as well as the spring and damper. You can not ask a shock to take the place of a strut without doing a lot of work to handle the bending loads.
inertiaticism
02-02-2008, 04:52 PM
That's kind of what I figured, worth asking though.
I'll probably switch to bilstiens when my konis eat it.
95KA-Turbo
02-02-2008, 10:46 PM
If you could make everything just like you said it, but double height adjustable for the mid 1ks then I don't see why it would be difficult to sell. I'd definitely sell my JIC FLA-2s for a set. I just don't want to be limited height wise, since I like to change wheels.
Wiisass
02-02-2008, 10:50 PM
What does changing wheels have to do with height adjustability. Are you running tires that are drastically different overall diameters? If you are, that's stupid. And there will be height adjustability but it will only be at the spring perch, this is how every real motorsports damper is. The package is designed with an overall height in mind and a loaded height and then small adjustments are all that are needed for corner weighting and small ride height adjustments.
This dual height adjustment shit being better is just marketing bullshit. The only reason that companies do it is because they're using the same xx" damper on every car. So you can run that damper on a car that needs a 30" overall height and a 20" overall height. It's just to cut costs which also kills damper performance.
95KA-Turbo
02-02-2008, 11:50 PM
I know "real" motorsports dampening systems don't offer it. I'm just saying if it did offer that people outside of serious motorsports would buy it. I am also not saying duel height adjustment is better, it is just what I want. If I want to be able to slam my car I should be able to without sacrificing the integrity of the shock. I can understand if this sounds stupid to someone who is thinking of this solely from an on track perspective, but if you were actually planning on selling them you may want to consider a broader customer pool.
I don't think a suspension setup like this is really geared towards the "I want to slam my car" crowd. This actually works, and isn't 256 way adjustable...
If you relocate the strut mount up relative to where it'd be with a stock strut tube, you can get your car very low without riding the bumpstops with just adjusting things at the spring perch.
Wiisass
02-03-2008, 12:58 AM
Like Def said, if I do put this setup or something similar into production, it's going to have a more race/track oriented intent and not in the way that "race" or whatever branded asian shit has. These will work and be awesome. They are not going to be a one size fits all setup. There will be different valving and spring rates depending on what the end user tells me about their car and what they're doing with it. Hopefully the end user will also be able to specify desired loaded length of the assembly so the setup can be better tailored to the car. This is why they're going to be more expensive than the average crap.
My idea is that eventually this setup can be tailored to different cars and different drivers. Different spring rates, different valving, etc. So if that's not a broad enough customer pool, I don't know what is.
95KA-Turbo
02-03-2008, 09:33 AM
That definitely sounds like it would be more then broad enough of customer pool. I wasn't aware you'd be custom making each set for each customer. I figured you'd make one or two different valved sets and keep everything else the same to save time...as I'm sure you've got another job. Since this is not the case, that is pretty awesome and I hope you do end up getting it all set up and start offering the service.
Silverbullet
02-03-2008, 10:29 AM
subscribed!
I been looking forward to get rid of my "jdm" coilovers eventually and go with some real struts.
tastyratz
12-01-2008, 07:08 AM
BUMP
Petrified thread from the dead for an update. Did you ever get anywhere with this?
I've been doing quite the research on this myself lately. I have been thinking of going to a Koni 8610 front/yellow rear combo but would really much rather go Bilstein instead if possible. I am working on a very tight budget. I have kts coils on the s13 now which I'm looking to drop. I want to re-use everything I can off them if possible to save cash (camber plate/pillow mount, springs if possible, etc). Threaded mounts are useless on them.
Stock housings and single fixed height springs are ok with me if I can get them in a reasonable spring rate. I am also considering a ground control/eibach setup or ebay drop zone perches (a threaded perch is a threaded perch either way) and custom wound springs(or re-use the ones I have if I can which would be even better).
Were you using the below part #'s ?
FRONT
S14 - R36-5034 Fitting Position Front Axle, Suspension Strut Insert, Single Tube Upside Down, Top pin
S13 - R36-5023
REAR
S14- B46-1916 Fitting Position Rear Axle, Spring-bearing Damper, Gas Pressure, Monotube, Bottom eye, Top pin
S13 - B46-1744
Z32 - F4-B46-1483-H0
I am also seeking out vendors in the UK for this myself.
These are unavailable in the USA, but since these use the 36mm setup are they FULLY rebuildable over here? What is it that would be unavailable in the states internally that you know of (if your aware)?
What other useful information has your research gathered so far?
Ruff Ryder 6
12-01-2008, 07:13 AM
You'll get much further by checking out Nissan Road Racing. He's also a member on there, and there has been a Bilstein solution done on that site that i myself have followed. so check that out and look in the Struts/Dampers section. Look for ecugrad's writeup. that is what i followed except for an S13
95KA-Turbo
12-03-2008, 08:21 AM
Yeah according to Tim my set up is being built by bilstein right now. So I can chime in when I get my shit!
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