sr20ve?

[jskateborders]

SEX. Discuss please.
I want all the dirt and opinions on this 2 liter four cylinder naturally aspirated engine pushing close to det #'s

[Koopa Troopa]

Uh, it's a FWD engine?

[jspecusa]

sr20vet(x-trail)--awd, but same layout as pulsar gtir.
6 year buying motors and I've only seen one at showa99 near tokyo.

[johngriff]

NeoTech has a turbocharged one running in an S13. I almost dropped my jaw. Sounded sick as hell.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[kdashy]

Uh, it's a FWD engine?

Word. Its Not going in your S13. So not really S chassis related.

[EDacIouSX]

Word. Its Not going in your S13. So not really S chassis related.

money can make anything happen.

[kdashy]

money can make anything happen.

Youre right. You can just throw in a regular SR20det and make easy power with bolt ons.

Or you can be an idiot and spend a ton of cash to put it in a 240 and probably never see 200WHP.

[johngriff]

The hatorade is flowin tonight.....

[kdashy]

The hatorade is flowin tonight.....

Crymore? OP asked for opinions.

[WilloW]

money can make anything happen.
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr01.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr04.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr02.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/ksr02.jpg
sweet.

[Koopa Troopa]

How much is he making and how much did he spend?

[johngriff]

http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr01.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr04.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr02.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/ksr02.jpg
sweet.

Map Sensor, What Management? That is sick!

[WilloW]

How much is he making and how much did he spend?
I have no ideas, you can contact them http://www.eagle-r.jp/sr20ve.html

Damn, you guys are quick with it. The link above might provide the information for management and such.

[Koopa Troopa]

Meh, read the link. The SR under the hood of my Silvia is more interesting.

That'd be a fun engine in an old March, Sunny truck or a kP61 Starlet but not in a 14.

[Koopa Troopa]

Map Sensor, What Management? That is sick!


It said he's using FCon VPro

[fliprayzin240sx]

Why the hell did I imagined a 4AG in my head when i saw that shot of the engine bay? Its different but what real advantage does this have over...oh i dont know....a KA?

[420sx]

What is the point of doing this swap? to be "different" or cool?

its not cool to spend $$$ to be slow. its fucking stupid

[Koopa Troopa]

Why the hell did I imagined a 4AG in my head when i saw that shot of the engine bay? Its different but what real advantage does this have over...oh i dont know....a KA?


That swap was done by a Japanese company... Look at the master cylinder...

Don't get me wrong that'd be a badass N/A set up but not in a pig of a car known as the S14. Put that bitch in a sunny truck!

[Cloud9]

Don't see the point, you could have more power with less money and work?

[Taiden]

Seems a lot of you here don't like the idea of the SR20VE.

Let me give you an idea of what us FWD guys are doing with them.

DET block, VE head, GT35R @ 19 psi on a protech E/L mani = 570 whp max boost at around 3000 RPM.

That head doesn't fuck around.

Also, it's a lot easier to fit it to a RWD block then you all think. :)

[Koopa Troopa]

It's all numbers man and those don't mean much. That motor probably has no powerband whatsoever.

[sky53line]

These motors came in the S15 Variettas.

[The Chad]

My friend has the SR20VE NEO 2.0 VVL motor in his NX2000 (fwd, looks like a mentaly retarded 300ZX:) imo... ). He got it back in 01' instead of the GTi-R Turbo motor because he was on a N/A trip. He saw a motor that made aprox the same hp as a base DET with variable valve timing and lift. Just dropped a pretty penny on it, about $2000 just for the motor back in the day. With a JWT ECU and cams and some other mods to the VVL his car was running high 13's. He's piecing together a turbo kit for it now. PM me and i'll get you some pics of his setup and progress if you'd like.

[McRussellPants]

What is the point of doing this swap? to be "different" or cool?

its not cool to spend $$$ to be slow. its fucking stupid



except for the fact that you could then put a 3071 on that car and have the most baller powerband from a two liter ever.

manly power from 4-9000rpm. yes please.

[jilo]

sr20vet is basically part of my dream engine setup, i think it would basically go ve head det block 3071 twinscroll with a full race manifold, my current short as fuck in tercooler setup and a few other things.

heres some info i gathered on how to do a ve head on a det block, its a conversation on a forum between two people. hope you find it useful its gonna be long



Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Rating: 0 (0%)

Re: Vvl Rwd!!!
1. Drill a hole and tap it on the intake side of the block between #3 and #4 piston where the hole in the head is, get a 4 AN or 6 AN fitting and braided hose to feed oil to the head for the cams block the hole on the bottom of the head by welding it up (do you also tap into the head or does the braided line go directly to the solenoids or to oil pressure switch?) Use head gasket that matches block?

Yep, basically thats what we're planning, block the hole in the bottom of the head and come in from the side. You also need to block the RWD oil return at the back of the block and make a couple of small changes up front of the timing cover


2. Use pretty much any CAS that you can make fit. 20V, SR20DET, RB, CA, MR2, if the altavista translator is correct it appears that the eagle racing car used a Toyota Altezza one. Do most CAS’s work the same? Have the same output voltages? The same accuracy (resolution)?

No, particularly between manufacturers/different # of cylinders they work quite differently. You also need to consider the ecu you're going to use to ensure it will take the signal. I haven't decided that yet, possibly a modified power fc, possibly autrontic SM2, possibly motec M400

Its recommended, if not necessary, to fit a better oil pump (than an S13 one). Use a standard VE or N1 pump (have to change front cover, crank pulley and what else?) if you want to do it the hard way or just an S14 or S15 DET (not DE) one to make life easier.

DET oil pump is easy to get and easy to fit (hell, it might already be there)


Pick the crank, rods and pistons you want to give you the displacement and compression you want. Stock DE will be ok (compression of about 10.5?). DET will give too low compression for NA (what compression will it give? 9.5?)

standard crank, personally I'll use forged rods (prob eagle, they'll do) and either SR20VE or S14 DE pistons depending on how adventurous we're feeling

Attach a lowport RWD intake manifold from an S14 or S15. No mods required. Just use correct idle control and TPS for your ECU. (Or spend $$$ and get custom or ebay QTB)

I'm probably doing quads, a company here makes 45, 48 or 50 mm quads for the SR for ~$950 US. Unfortunately they're designed for the highport head and for lowport require a $300 adaptor. I've started to harrass them to build a VE quad tb setup, I reckon for US 1000 they should be able to sell a few. Alternatively we'll hack a DET S14/15 plenum (got quite a few of them) or get an aftermarket plenumm (about 300-400 these days) and put on the 70mm tb (about 160). Intake shouldn't be too expensive at all really as all the products are out there.


Get modded/custom/aftermarket exhaust manifold, appropriate aftermarket ECU, injectors and MAF of your choice, cam control, tune it up and she’s all good!

injectors are easy, just run S15 which are about perfectly sized and cost piss all (30-40 each), maf I'll likely ditch due to the quads but if not nismo mafs are cheap for a newy or RB25DET for an oldie.

Out the back I reckon a lightened flywheel, S15 clutch and 6 speed with a 4.3ish diff. Thats one of the best things about this swap, you can use all the old S15 parts that were discarded from other projects years ago


Possible problems:

I can’t see how the solenoids are going to fit without the engine being moved, the solenoids being moved or the firewall modified. Maybe it’s different with S14 but there’s not much room on my S13 and if you look at the eagle racing car photos (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/eagle/racing/newpage4.htm) there doesn’t seem to be much room when looking from the side. (How far do the solenoids stick out of the head? 50-60 mm?)

I haven't seen how far the solenoids come out but you certainly do have 50-60mm behind the engine, and thats before the sledgehammer comes out! Once you get the loom and other bits and pieces out from behind the head there's a bit of room


Mounting and sealing the CAS to the head. I doubt any of the brackets will fit so I’m guessing it’s just a case of get out the welder and make it fit.

Out the back, if it's getting tight just shorten the cover (there's a bit of room in the SR CAS which can be removed.


I assume you remove the water pipe that runs under the VE intake manifold and then can just run hose to the outlet at the bottom of the radiator (should look similar to a factory Silvia SR20DET set up).

I'm yet to see a VE so I don't know the pipe. That said, radiator outlet to engine doesn't change, I assume the outlet from the head is in the same place - exhaust side at the front?


There is no problem running the standard S13/14/15 coil packs on the VE head?

You'd need to change the rocker cover to a VET one (I still have no idea if the 20V runs coils or dizzy and leads) but it's not rocket science to put 4 coils outside the engine and run leads in


Stock Head bolts will fit fine and do the job?

they look identical to me (from lining up the head gasket on a RWD block) but I'll use studs. 5 years of modding DET's has left me with a strong dislike of standard SR headbolts (ie, they're crap)


VE cam gears (not 20V ones) work fine with S13/14/15 crank?

No, they need to be replaced with "standard" cam gears, we'll be using hks/tomei verniers


It really doesn't look all that hard though I'm sure once we really get into it all the little hassles will spring up. We're thinking of doing three engines pretty much concurrently - bang for buck VE conversion using an SR16VE head, S13 DE bottom end (completely standard), cheap short runner plenum with 70mm tb and probably modded standard ecu; serious conversion using a 20V head, big cams, quad tbs, proper ecu, 9000rpm etc; VET, not sure which head and something like a 3037S on the side, could be interesting.

[slider2828]

That australia posting is old. The VE engine has been talked about for a long time and it is old news. You can spend about the same money in SR20DET upgrades and get about the same power if not more. Probably the SR20DET will be more reliable anyways and if you got money, 9k RPM on an SR20 is possible too if you got a good head build or what not. Why waste time even sourcing all those parts if they are pretty hard to get anyways. VE engines are hard to come buy and isn't that cheap.

[CKAMC]

VE's are a pain in the ass when you start getting large turbo's on it.

Used to have one on my first car (b13) and yes it is fun and makes quite a good amount of power with very little work done on it.

overall tho, it is still a money pit, just as much money can get you a rb26 (comparing all the machine/custom parts it takes and time).

honestly VE's are cool on AWD p10's and p11's and acceptable on fwd cars....but still for how much is spent to put it on a rwd car you can probably do just as good with a VTC motor.

Cliff notes: Cool motor, expensive idea

[Koopa Troopa]

except for the fact that you could then put a 3071 on that car and have the most baller powerband from a two liter ever.

manly power from 4-9000rpm. yes please.


It's not hard to make a DET do the same...

[jskateborders]

i wasnt planning on using it, i just thought the power and output NA was pretty good for a 2 liter

[jilo]

i just like the whole large cam small cam thing. it would allow you a way to get power and some economy on the same engine. iirc the high cam duration on those engines and the n1 type is like 280-290+ degrees. thats a little too much for me to drive around on at under 3k rpms.

while it is expensive, its still fun to daydream. and i dont think it would be that hard of a project.

[Koopa Troopa]

That head is the same concept as honda VTEC. Under normal driving the cams are 240 degree duration and when you reach whatever RPM the cam lobes switch and it'll use a 280 degree duration lobe.

I might look into using one of those heads on my 14 if I can find one.. I kinda wanna take a look at it. VTEC turbo 14 would be fun.

[PoorMans180SX]

VVL is like iVTEC for Nissans. VE head>DE head. Guy on sr20forum has dyno charts. Makes mid-500's whp and revs to 9800rpm on a built VE+T at 15psi. I've never seen a street driven DET do that.

If you're building your DET, spend an extra 700 on a VE head, drill and tap it, and mount it on your DET block. Get a good engine management system and have a powerband far superior to a DET.

[CKAMC]

or get a 3sge out of a jp altezza and turbo it :keke:

I started considering the idea the other day to piss people off(anti SR idea)

[Koopa Troopa]

VVL is like iVTEC for Nissans. VE head>DE head. Guy on sr20forum has dyno charts. Makes mid-500's whp and revs to 9800rpm on a built VE+T at 15psi. I've never seen a street driven DET do that.


A DET head with a solid lifters, double valve springs, 270+ cams and a turbo that won't choke out can do the same....

[420sx]

i dont understand why not to go cheaper horsepower route and spend less to get same power. sr20det can pull nice power with less money. left over money can be put in other things like suspension, lsd, tires. track fees.

[Koopa Troopa]

i dont understand why not to go cheaper horsepower route and spend less to get same power. sr20det can pull nice power with less money. left over money can be put in other things like suspension, lsd, tires. track fees.

Because horsepower numbers don't matter. It's how the motor runs and what car it's in. My friend's 180whp Toda stroked B16a EG6 has given cars with twice it's power a run for their money.

[S14mc]

NeoTech has a turbocharged one running in an S13. I almost dropped my jaw. Sounded sick as hell.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah, that's Nick's S13. I believe its a sr20det block with a ve head, coupled with a GT28RS. Car is preetty quick!

[ms!3]

so whats the difference in difficulties compared to honda guys that frankenstein "lsvtecs"? im pretty interested in this, im an n/a 4 cylinder kinda guy. yea.

[Taiden]

You can buy complete VE heads on sr20forum for no more than $750. They bolt up to a DET block (rwd). You need to plug an oil line in the head and drill and tap for an external line. Other than that it's finding a CAS that works and fitting the solenoids back there. If AE86 guys can cut a hole in their firewall for a 4a-ge 20v distributor, I don't see why we can't for VVL solenoids.

As for the people who believe "it has no power band", the only thing I can do is cry to myself about your thought process. A VET will make 19 psi on a GT35R at around 3-3.5k. Good luck doing that on a DET with whatever cams you want. Not to mention you get really really good drivability and a rock solid idle.

[Koopa Troopa]

We're just trying to say a DET will make the same power if not more for way less work. If I can get a SR20VE head for under $500 around here I'll do it just to run Pulsar ITB's and so I can make some money back on my Tomei head.

[Taiden]

We're just trying to say a DET will make the same power if not more for way less work. If I can get a SR20VE head for under $500 around here I'll do it just to run Pulsar ITB's and so I can make some money back on my Tomei head.

Once again it makes me cry since GTI-R ITBs only fit on the GTI-R head.

Also, why would you want to do that? The intake ports on the VE are way larger. That would just kill your power.

Oh, and a DET will never make more power than a VET. That's just fact. Head design doesn't allow for it. VET low end will always be far better than DET low end. That's just fact.

[420sx]

You can buy complete VE heads on sr20forum for no more than $750. They bolt up to a DET block (rwd). You need to plug an oil line in the head and drill and tap for an external line. Other than that it's finding a CAS that works and fitting the solenoids back there. If AE86 guys can cut a hole in their firewall for a 4a-ge 20v distributor, I don't see why we can't for VVL solenoids.

As for the people who believe "it has no power band", the only thing I can do is cry to myself about your thought process. A VET will make 19 psi on a GT35R at around 3-3.5k. Good luck doing that on a DET with whatever cams you want. Not to mention you get really really good drivability and a rock solid idle.


and you surely sir have the experience with the above swap, right? :keke:

[jrbump]

Once again it makes me cry since GTI-R ITBs only fit on the GTI-R head.


is that so?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/greentokerdotcfg/NWN%20Weekly/notit126-1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m211/jrbump/unnincitb003.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m211/jrbump/unnincitb002.jpg


and before we used the u bends
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m211/jrbump/cpehm20001.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m211/jrbump/cpehm20004.jpg

the real problem is that GTiR is highport and VE's are lowport.

I really like the idea of a VE head on a RWD DET but I'm done with anything remotely original. These ITB's just about did me in.




anyway, back on topic. If you really want a VE head, talk to andreas_miko on sr20forum.com. he can get you whatever you need, including sr20vet's.

[turtl631]

Um, I don't think any 2.0L is going to spool a GT35R at 3000 rpm. Prove me wrong with dyno charts, I'd love to see it, but that's ridiculous. They spool around 5k on SR20DEs, depending on A/R.

[Koopa Troopa]

Once again it makes me cry since GTI-R ITBs only fit on the GTI-R head.

Also, why would you want to do that? The intake ports on the VE are way larger. That would just kill your power.

Oh, and a DET will never make more power than a VET. That's just fact. Head design doesn't allow for it. VET low end will always be far better than DET low end. That's just fact.


Clearly you are unexperianced in the ways of SR20 tuning. Once my MoTeC get's tuned I'll take some video of what a SR20DET can do.... 450whp at 9000 RPM :rawk:

[johngriff]

Which model motec?

[Koopa Troopa]

M400.. it's all in my gallery thing. Bought the Motec and got the car for free. I just need to learn how to tune cars now. Computer stuff and mathmatics is beyond me for the most part. If only I lived in the US I'd buy an old Z and build a badass L28.... FUCK EFI!! CARBS FTW!

[mRclARK1]

i dont understand why not to go cheaper horsepower route and spend less to get same power. sr20det can pull nice power with less money. left over money can be put in other things like suspension, lsd, tires. track fees.


Agreed. SR20DET's can make decent power for less money. I do like the idea of a VE head on a DET block, but for most people's applications I don't see it being worth the price and effort IMHO.

[johngriff]

Right...

Want to sell that unit cheap? Need to whet my pallet on the big M.

[Koopa Troopa]

Right...

Want to sell that unit cheap? Need to whet my pallet on the big M.

You talking about my Motec? I'm good. I've got a friend who will be teaching me how to tune it.

[Taiden]

and you surely sir have the experience with the above swap, right? :keke:

Considering I am in direct contact with bigtom who was the first person in the USA to achieve this swap, and provided all information to sr20forum required to do it, I'd say I have more than most people on here. Especially the ones who don't believe the low end turbo spooling capabilities of this head.

Also, as for the GTI-R ITBs, if we were talking about sticking them on a DET I wouldn't have said it the way I did. The GTI-R ITBs won't fit directly to a VE head. I still don't get why you countered my statement by bringing in something completely unrelated. That's going to confuse too many people on this forum and makes for horrible discussion.

[McRussellPants]

Clearly you are unexperianced in the ways of SR20 tuning. Once my MoTeC get's tuned I'll take some video of what a SR20DET can do.... 450whp at 9000 RPM :rawk:

You mean you'll show us what alot of other people have already done?

[Taiden]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4867/scan5lp2.jpg

9-10 psi VET with a turbo that was picked to hold 25 psi to 9200 RPM.

[jilo]

any idea on copression ratio? seems like it still has the hi cop pistons in it to be making that power with 9 psi. could be wrong tho

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

er... video? pictures of said car? i could post a 1100HP supra dyno and say that it was a run with my NA KA.

[Cashizslick]

What is the point of doing this swap? to be "different" or cool?

its not cool to spend $$$ to be slow. its fucking stupid

:werd:

If you want to stay N/A then keep the KA.

[steve shadows]

this is cool and all and Id high 5 the guy who does one, but a standard sr20det with a little turbo upgrade will wipe it's ass with this setup even in highly tuned form.

It's all about being different I guess, (just like the honda crowd) had to try to be different someway. Even if it meant nothing on the track.

[Taiden]

er... video? pictures of said car? i could post a 1100HP supra dyno and say that it was a run with my NA KA.


christ, many of you guys on Zilvia are really hard to please. I can't think of a single reason why I would stick another dyno chart in just to prove a point on the internet.

Is it disbelief that maybe the FWD guys are doing *something* right?

I should mention that many of you are viewing this thread as "NA VE vs DET". In that regard, I say fuck the VE, go DET. That being said, I also day, fuck the DET, go VET. :)

As for compression, it is just a hair shy of 10.5:1. That being said, the VE block won't even go into an S13 so I don't even bother thinking about that in the first place. When I think of "RWD SR20VE" the only thing that comes to mind is a DET (since everyone and their sister has one) with a VE head. At that point you are looking at around 8.8:1 compression.

[steve shadows]

Is it disbelief that maybe the FWD guys are doing *something* right?
.

No it;s just NA guys dont want too much power, especially when it comes to beating on your cars.

Too much power equals spin.

NA is great, more consistant and overall more fun imo for fwd.

So cool beans

For RWD, a ve , its cool, but only if i was rolling in money and wanted something fun and fuel efficent for a dd.


why would you say fuck the de over the ve ?

outside of the thread and its NA nature now that you put it?

I mean power band response? An NA car that is tuned for high redline and high compression doesnt exactlyhave instant HP either, espeically if its a high revving 4 cyl. A boxter 6 or V8 does have more response and is a better platform for this type of goal.

[mRclARK1]

I'm not thinking the VE is uselss or anything... I just don't see it being worth it/practical for what most people are doing with there S-chassis'... for probably 80% of people on this forum thier horsepower goals etc. can be reached easily with an internally stock SR, RB, or going KA-T. All of which are easy swaps with easy to find parts.

[steve shadows]

Lets leave it open though.

I figure a SR20DE from a silvia Q would be a much more economical way to build a high comp NA, RWD setup.

What are the direct advantages over this motor of the VE?

just drop an s2000 motor or better yet buy an s2000 haha

[Taiden]

I am realizing now that I think we are all talking about motor choice for different applications.

First off, sure, take a DET and slap on a huge turbo. As long as you keep the revs up it will be stupid fast. However, when you've got that DET all built and everything is running great, you can GREATLY increase your low end power and spool up all over the board by swapping a VE head on it. A VET is not a budget build.

NA, the VE is comparable to the K20 when it comes to all motor. The only issue is the aftermarket is HUGE for the K20 whereas it is tiny for the VE. Currently, with SR16VE N1 cams, SR16VE N1 intake manifold, stock SR20VE head and block, a nice short WAI, 4-1 stepped header, and a 3" exhaust, people are making around 215-220 WHP.

They also daily drive the car and get 32 mpg highway on 93 octane gas. That's cool. I should also note that a stock VE makes almost max amount of torque at 2,000 RPM. Case in point, NPM VE swap dyno:

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/june04/specv/images/aebs_cai_exhaust_no_ks_dyno.jpg

I hope this puts the "no power band" argument to rest.

There is a man who goes by the name of sr20turbofreak who is currently designing headers and cams along with springs and retainers to be used with the VE. That dyno chart I posted in an earlier post is of his fwd VET that he is still doing research and design on. For those who care, it is in a beautiful G20.

As for other motors, I can't think of a better motor for the S series chassis than an LS1/LS7 etc. But for this discussion, I am trying to keep it apples to apples, aka SR20 to SR20.

It has been proven over and over again that any SR20 block motor, be it NA or forced induction, that receives a VE head gains a ridiculous amount of power all over the RPM range. On sr20forum, if you take any given setup, and find someone with the same setup plus a VE head, you see anywhere from a 50-75 whp increase, and far more torque in the lower RPM ranges.

I think an NA SR20VE would be dumb in a 240sx, just because of the weight of the thing. Stick a VE head on a SR20DE block with high compression pistons and an 8cw crank, throw that in a lightened AE86, and we'd have a case of good bye Mr Bond. We aren't talking about that though.

[Taiden]

Also, I hope we are all on the same page of what exactly a VE head is.

It is a DE head with:

1) higher flow characteristics
2) larger intake and exhaust ports
3) larger valves
4) the ability to select between two cam profiles

5) switch intake and exhaust profiles SEPARATELY (unlike VTAK, SR20VEs have two solenoids, unless it is a factory VET (X-Trail) or the SR20VE '20v' (not 20 valves, it's a P11 20v, 20v being the sub model)

6) better head cooling characteristics
7) solid lifters


It is just straight up physically impossible for a DE head to outflow/outperform a VE head.

[Taiden]

and just to give you guys something else to look at, because who doesn't like pictures and dyno graphs?

Engine: SR20VE
Cams: SR20VE
Intake: WAI
Header: Fuji
Exhaust: 3”
ECU: JWT

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4616/dynonp3wz4.jpg

http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/184824-ve-dyno-post.html

[steve shadows]

Also, I hope we are all on the same page of what exactly a VE head is.

It is a DE head with:

1) higher flow characteristics
2) larger intake and exhaust ports
3) larger valves
4) the ability to select between two cam profiles

5) switch intake and exhaust profiles SEPARATELY (unlike VTAK, SR20VEs have two solenoids, unless it is a factory VET (X-Trail) or the SR20VE '20v' (not 20 valves, it's a P11 20v, 20v being the sub model)


7) solid lifters


It is just straight up physically impossible for a DE head to outflow/outperform a VE head.



6) better head cooling characteristics

explain that.

PS. all of your other notes on how the head is better ar irrelevent if your trying to make hp with a Turbocharger.

Comparing the VE to a DET with a "huge turbo slapped on it" uh duh its gonig to be no comparison.

in terms of power band, Show me a 250whp NA motor making peak torque before 3k and Ill buy it.

A twin scroll 2871R with properly tuned cam timingwill make way more power and have more torque and be less in price that this configuation.

The larger intake and exaust ports could be beneficial, But how much bigger?

Larger valves on sr20det's have already been proven time and time again useless, on a NA motor is becomes essential for overall power gains.

It has been proven over and over again that any SR20 block motor, be it NA or forced induction, that receives a VE head gains a ridiculous amount of power all over the RPM range. On sr20forum, if you take any given setup, and find someone with the same setup plus a VE head, you see anywhere from a 50-75 whp increase, and far more torque in the lower RPM ranges.

Got any examples? Are you saying the Variable Timing feature of this head is what makes the HP? Id love to see some more examples of where this is true, especially in setup in the 350-550whp ranges where the standard VTC is pretty much useless and becomes a hinderance.

Im not trying to bust your balls too hard im just trying to be the devils advocate so i can get your arguments and proof clarified.

It is just straight up physically impossible for a DE head to outflow/outperform a VE head

Cylinder chamber re-shaping, de-shrouding valves, polishing of high port head, port-matching+ time on tuning cam-timing have all yeilded even larger results on high ouput sr20dets compared to stock det heads.

I am pretty confident that if you put the same money you put into working with a SR20VE, you could build an SR20DE RWD setup wtih higher output, larger valves, propper cam sizing and timing etc.

[Taiden]

VTC is useless. NeoVVL is hardly useless. I have said time and time again as to why the NeoVVL is significant to a turbo application.

You have a low camshaft profile that is designed for low end torque and turbo spooling capabilities, and a high camshaft profile that is designed with large amounts of overlap for high end torque which equates to horsepower.

Please realize that all the arguing I am doing is from a VE+T versus DET standpoint. Since we're on a 240sx forum and we have all agreed that an NA VE is useless in this platform, I don't care to speak about it.

I have run out of ways to explain why the VE head is far superior to a DET/DE head. The only thing I can suggest is that those of you who are interested in this possible hybrid motor read up on sr20forum. There is a lot of VET information there.

As for the cooling characteristics, the internal water channels are closer to the combustion surface of the head and there are more water channels. This allows people with a VET setup to run more boost, as knock occurs far less.

VTC uses variable cam phasing, which rotates the camshaft a certain number of degrees to change overlap at idle...
NeoVVL uses variable cam timing and lift by selecting between two different camshaft profiles by using a solenoid which opens oil passageways to a multi-part lifter which selects between the two profiles.


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/33AFEA46-D732-479C-A4AB-22E74118BB4A.htm

The Honda VTEC system is practically identical to the NeoVVL system. The only difference is the VTEC system only activates the intake cam, whereas the NeoVVL system can activate intake and exhaust cams separately.

[steve shadows]

As for the cooling characteristics, the internal water channels are closer to the combustion surface of the head and there are more water channels. This allows people with a VET setup to run more boost, as knock occurs far less.

ok thats cool

you havent even come close to running out of explanations, if you joined with only 20 posts, why not make zilvia more aware of this?

post some more.

Links im sure would be fine and some more realevent information about the head.

By all means Im interested!

[Taiden]

Most of you have said it yourself... when you get aftermarket cams all they do is move the power band up in the RPM range. One can design cams to make power down low, they just don't. Why? Because when you're racing, low end torque is not as beneficial as high end horsepower. With the NeoVVL head, this isn't an issue, because you effectively have TWO camshaft profiles that are at your disposal. As such, you have ONE camshaft profile that is designed for low end torque, and a SECOND camshaft profile that gets activated for high RPM power.


Two camshaft profiles are better than one.

[Taiden]

I am a huge believer in "knowledge is power." That's half the reason why I am bothering making all these posts.

I don't like that several of you believe the VE head is a novelty item. It is not a novelty item, it is a very high performance head option that none of you should overlook.



DE vs VE head discussion: http://www.sr20forum.com/all-motor/194508-more-de-head-vs-ve-head.html

This should be reason enough to switch to the VE head, lol.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/jsaxophone/SE-L/VE/DSC00669-1.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/xxtokesxx/Random/DEvsVE.jpg

DE = 8in^2
VE = 10in^2

More in a second...

[Taiden]

Honestly I think half the reason there isn't much VE information on here is because the FWD guys like their "secrets."

Some flow bench numbers that an sr20forum member came up with:

Supercowboy's SR20VE flow bench results.

Intake:
.050" lift, 37 cfm
.100" lift, 50 cfm
.150" lift, 72 cfm
.200" lift, 95 cfm
.250" lift, 114 cfm
.300" lift, 132 cfm
.350" lift, 137 cfm
.400" lift, 144 cfm

tested at 10 inches of water.

[Taiden]

hey guys... just saw this post and thought that i'd throw my two cents in...

i have an engine completed... should be running this week. waiting on the intake manifold. i'll post some pics tomorrow.

using a S13 redtop block that has S-Trail internals in it... gti-r bearings... black top VVL head with X-Trail cams. to clear up some confussion from earlier in this thread... the X-Trail has a 20V cylinder head on it. the ONLY difference internally are the cams and the fact that the exhaust side does not have the big rockers drilled...i.e. THEY DO NOT SWITCH. i have taken the x-trail rockers for the exhaust side and installed them into my blacktop head. when and if Clarke at JWT makes some turbo VVL cams, then perhaps we will install the appropriate rocker setup and go that route. for the time being, I am running the black top solenoids and they are still mounted to the head... i modified the fire wall to make clearance. using the x-trail CAS, and coils. using a late 180SX puter (same as the S15) with the S15 T28 and NISMO 555cc injectors.

as for the head bolting to the block... plug up the xtra oil drain on the RWD block.... plug up and relocate the oil feed for the solenoids and then simply use a 20v steel headgasket. use the VVL (i used the VET... but there doesn't seem to be a difference flow wise) front cover and then you have to voodoo (i.e. mill) the RWD pulley onto the engine. all of the ancilleries are original S13 DET pieces... including A/C if you like your creature comforts.

i'm running a standard silvia 5 speed gearbox with a helical 4.4 diff... if i can get the manifold finished this week, i may be able to get some dyno numbers this weekend and then post next week. we'll see!

my manifold will look nearly identical to what you see in the pics above.... big sewer pipe plenum with a Q45 throttle body. interested in seeing how restrictive the side mount intercooler setup really is!!http://www.sr20forum.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif

PICS TOMORROW!!!

-n-

if your in the San Diego area, feel free to stop Neo Tech Imports and see it. it's still sitting on jack stands waiting for me to finish it!

http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/159601-regards-rwd-vvl.html

[jrbump]

Like I said earlier, a VE head on my DE-T would rock. Just too much skrilla.

[Koopa Troopa]

VTC is useless. NeoVVL is hardly useless. I have said time and time again as to why the NeoVVL is significant to a turbo application.

You have a low camshaft profile that is designed for low end torque and turbo spooling capabilities, and a high camshaft profile that is designed with large amounts of overlap for high end torque which equates to horsepower.

Please realize that all the arguing I am doing is from a VE+T versus DET standpoint. Since we're on a 240sx forum and we have all agreed that an NA VE is useless in this platform, I don't care to speak about it.


You said it yourself. When I am racing I am never in a RPM low enough to warrant the need for a 220 duration cam.

Now, another benefit of having no power whatsoever below 4500 RPMs... Say I do decide to return to Arizona, I go to get my car smogged.. That car will make no power whatsoever untill 4500 when the turbo spools. I will never get to 4500 RPMs on a roller. Easy pass.

[Taiden]

You said it yourself. When I am racing I am never in a RPM low enough to warrant the need for a 220 duration cam.

Now, another benefit of having no power whatsoever below 4500 RPMs... Say I do decide to return to Arizona, I go to get my car smogged.. That car will make no power whatsoever untill 4500 when the turbo spools. I will never get to 4500 RPMs on a roller. Easy pass.

Again, I'm sorry, you are wrong. Because you are running high duration cams in the low RPMs you have a very inefficient engine.

The SR20VE will pass Cali smog with no EGR and a cat. Proven fact done over and over again on sr20forum.

You guys really crack me up. :)

[wonkuuzenki]

You know your stuff.
good job and let's hope to make this more known to the forums!

[Koopa Troopa]

Again, I'm sorry, you are wrong. Because you are running high duration cams in the low RPMs you have a very inefficient engine.

The SR20VE will pass Cali smog with no EGR and a cat. Proven fact done over and over again on sr20forum.

You guys really crack me up. :)

I don't think you are seeing the picture here.. Who cares about the low RPMs? (low as in 4k and under) I don't drive hard in that range anyways so the need for a low duration cam is nonexistant. How is my engine inefficient BTW? Is it because it doesn't have VTEC?

[O3DigitalBath]

whats the point of this thread?

we all know its a good head.

its just not cost effective. If I want some more power a lil more boost or a different turbo would be wehre I looked, not modding a head to put it on my car.

[Koopa Troopa]

If I can get one of those heads for cheap I'll do a VET just so I can make some money out of my Tomei head.

[mRclARK1]

whats the point of this thread?

we all know its a good head.

its just not cost effective. If I want some more power a lil more boost or a different turbo would be wehre I looked, not modding a head to put it on my car.

That's pretty much what I have been trying to say. For almost all applications, that people on this forum are using it for, the DET head will do just fine, and is a lot easier to find parts for etc. So it's just not cost effective, or worth the time, to find and buy a VE head when one can get a DET head that will do the job, quicker and cheaper.

I also agree with Koopa Troopa... you're likely never going to see below 4K RPM's when you're racing anyway, so a low duration cam isn't really needed.

[Taiden]

What you are all basically saying is that low end power is useless. So you would be happy making 20 ft lbs of torque until 5k since each shift will have you above 5k?

Then why do you guys care about turbo spoolup? If no one on here cared about turbo spool up everyone would run a T88. People care, so they pick the smallest turbo that will give the max pressures they want at max RPM. Saying low rpm power is useless is a pretty false claim.

[SlidewayzS14]

you guys are seriously missing his point. The head will make more EFFECIANT power better and sooner than a DET. Being able to tune 2 cams instead of one on a better flowing head. tune a honda and you would understand. From the sounds of it you can tune this better than a honda due to the dual solenoids. He never once said it was cost effective, he just said and proved it was more effective.

LS/Vtec = more $$$ more power
B18C1 = Less $$$ close to the same power.

VET = more $$$ more power
DET = Less $$$ close to the same power

Hybrid engines seem to be better due to the fact that you can play with parts and OEM engines are meant to be for everyone, not just racer-x. Its been like this for years in the honda camp and now its leaking into the nissan camp. Just because your cheaper, tried and true methods work well, doesn't mean it works the best.


Btw, you see <4k rpm at the start of a race, so yeah, low end power does mean something. I want more power sooner, dont you? i want a better smoother powerband, i want more top end. etc.

[atom]

Dude LS/VTEC isn't even close to the same thing as the VE head swap.

1. The difference in flow between a LS head and a VTEC head is much more drastic than a VE/DE head.

2. In a LS/VTEC you gain displacement.

3. Most Honda frankensteins are N/A. Most SR's in 240's are turbo.

4. Even in the Honda world frankenstein engines aren't the best. Sickest Honda's I've seen use dart blocks and the like.

All that being said I still think a VE head swap is cool but it is not even close to a LS/VTEC. It's also interesting I read this over at Sr20forum..........

VE vs DE

stock the ve heads flow better. Port and polished VE head is a waste of time. Not much is gained due to the runners being position and shaped the way they are. They already flow very well for what they are.

Stock De head (high port) Head flows less than the VE head. There are very huge gains with porting and polishing a DE head. I have a head that flows 12% more Than a ported VE head(yes more). The high port head makes good numbers if ported and polish properly.

If you think I am wrong about the heads Drop by my shop and Ill put both heads on my flowbench and we can discuss it further.

The De should be able to make more power than the VE. This is due to the cam selections available and great headwork.

http://www.sr20forum.com/all-motor/171172-big-dollar-engine-has-nooo-power-3.html

[Koopa Troopa]

What you are all basically saying is that low end power is useless. So you would be happy making 20 ft lbs of torque until 5k since each shift will have you above 5k?

Then why do you guys care about turbo spoolup? If no one on here cared about turbo spool up everyone would run a T88. People care, so they pick the smallest turbo that will give the max pressures they want at max RPM. Saying low rpm power is useless is a pretty false claim.

I don't care, that's why I have a T04S that'll see max boost at 4500 RPMs. I will be shifting ~/@ 9k RPMs. I don't know about you but I have never seen a 4K RPM drop while upshifting.



Btw, you see <4k rpm at the start of a race, so yeah, low end power does mean something. I want more power sooner, dont you? i want a better smoother powerband, i want more top end. etc.

That's what 2 step rev limiters are for....

[Taiden]

Out of curiosity, what sort of racing do people do on Zilvia?

The majority of sr20forum road races and autocrosses. The minority drag races.

If I am arguing about low end torque against a bunch of drag racers / street racers, I see why you are all so stubborn.

If I am arguing against grip racers... oh deary me. :(

[turtl631]

I think the main issue here is that getting a VE head to work on a RWD SR is not easy at all. Sure, if it was just bolt on, run some oil lines, and fire it up, more people would do it. It's a hassle though, and since most people are happy with the power from a GT2871R .64 setup that's tried and true, why spend all the money and deal with the frustration of something as uncharted as a VE head swap? The situation for FWD cars is very different.

[steve shadows]

[QUOTE=SlidewayzS14;1427320]

EFFECIANT


VET = more $$$ more power
DET = Less $$$ close to the same power

[\QUOTE]

thats a horrible comparison plus your butchered the shit out of efficient

Most of the people rooting for a VE head have never driven "LAGGY" sr20det setups around a road racing track, let along ever even gotten close to making 500whp (response or not).

VE or not goes right out the window for band for buck.

I think its a semi-cost effective alternative for the FWD guys who are being classed in a particular form of road racing.

for maniacs like me, id rather just re-sleeve over bore and have some head work done and run a twin scroll etc.

[steve shadows]

The SR20VE will pass Cali smog with no EGR and a cat. Proven fact done over and over again on sr20forum.

You guys really crack me up. :)

with a turbo strapped to it?

[Koopa Troopa]

Out of curiosity, what sort of racing do people do on Zilvia?

The majority of sr20forum road races and autocrosses. The minority drag races.

If I am arguing about low end torque against a bunch of drag racers / street racers, I see why you are all so stubborn.

If I am arguing against grip racers... oh deary me. :(


I drive Gymkhana and touge and I have no use for a low profile cam. Sorry but reality is winning this war paper racer.

[Taiden]

Alright, well, you guys can do what you want. I still see no reason why anyone would throw away the option of having ridiculous low end while having the same top end. In the end it's all up to you. I personally prefer the ability to have faster spool up and more low end.

My time in this thread is over, if anyone wants any details on anything VE related feel free to PM me.

[O3DigitalBath]

seriously give up, if you want low end go LSx series...lets see how your lil VET setup does against LS series V8....

end of the day there is always going to be something else thats better or a way to mod it a lil bit to be better. Also at the end of the day the VE heads have been around since what like 98 or so, and VET's since liek 01'.

If your age in your profile is correct you were playing with toys still (like 10 years old) when people first started to look into this stuff. Its old news and like I said before it isn't worth it by the time you mod everything and buy that expensive head to make it all work. Its the same thing with ITB's...just not worth it for us. Sure they are cool but not worth it.

You can try and explain to me how cool VVT is all you want, I work at a shop building honda's. It's nothing new, and Nissans 2 solenoid thing isn't all that great. You arn't going to find guys making huge differences in gains from having them kick over at different times.

[atutt]

/\/\ what does his age have to do with anything?

[O3DigitalBath]

Age always plays a role in things...a younger person (i'm not even old) wouldn't have been around when these topics were originally discussed. I've seen tons of threads over the boards in the last few years talking about this head swap....

I know its a good head. I know Variable Valve Timing has proved its worth in more than one motor made by a few different manuf. But the thread starter just keeps going on about how we are overlooking this end all/be all head swap, but fact is its not worth it to most of us. It is just not cost effective.

If you want tons of down low power and still have good top end why not just go buy an LS7 and put that in your 240? Shit then you could even boost it. I think that would yeild more power and spool the turbo even faster huh? But wait, oh yea that costs a fucking shit-ton of money. And its excessive for all of us. How about all of us swich to HKS tranny's? those are nice huh? oh yea constant rebuilds and its also a lot of money.

There will always be those things that will cost a lot more money than they are worth to 98% of the people. Doesn't mean that 2% should go on and on trying to sell the rest of us on it.

There is VERY VERY few people on here who would need anything more than lets say a pretty much stock 20det with a 2871 or maybe a 30...

[steve shadows]

the point i was trying to echo towards was that if you try to make big power on that head you will invariably have to buy camshafts that end up eliminating the "variable timing" feature of the motor.

Just like hondas, just like VTC heads...etc.

[jilo]

all of the hating about cost could be said about going twin scroll too, but people seem to enjoy that option mere for some reason. the neovvl is obviously better in doin the job of getting air in the chamber at the correct time. you have indepenant control of everything. how the hell is that a bad thing?

[steve shadows]

all of the hating about cost could be said about going twin scroll too, but people seem to enjoy that option mere for some reason. the neovvl is obviously better in doin the job of getting air in the chamber at the correct time. you have indepenant control of everything. how the hell is that a bad thing?

read what I just posted

At real Man's HP levels its redundent and useless.

The port size is the only arguable perf difference at high power levels (like4-600whp).

Time attack cars and road racers are in that range.

Twin scroll is more effective for hp goals there-in

[jilo]

as far as im concerned its for controlling power under the curve. i enjoy low end power and therefore i want to try this later

[Taiden]

seriously give up, if you want low end go LSx series...lets see how your lil VET setup does against LS series V8....

end of the day there is always going to be something else thats better or a way to mod it a lil bit to be better. Also at the end of the day the VE heads have been around since what like 98 or so, and VET's since liek 01'.

If your age in your profile is correct you were playing with toys still (like 10 years old) when people first started to look into this stuff. Its old news and like I said before it isn't worth it by the time you mod everything and buy that expensive head to make it all work. Its the same thing with ITB's...just not worth it for us. Sure they are cool but not worth it.

You can try and explain to me how cool VVT is all you want, I work at a shop building honda's. It's nothing new, and Nissans 2 solenoid thing isn't all that great. You arn't going to find guys making huge differences in gains from having them kick over at different times.

Do you remember what I said previously in this thread? I said that I thought the best motor for the S series chassis was an LS series motor. I then said that since we were talking about SR20 motors I was going to keep the discussion apples to apples by not bringing them into the equation.


Age always plays a role in things...

I'm not sure how many 18/19 year olds are currently in business with their uncles bringing the 4a-ge 20v swap to the number of Type 65 Lotus Europas in the states. I also don't know how many are the project managers for building the only 20v Europa currently running in the states into an NA machine. At the same time, I'm not sure how many 18/19 year olds are pioneering a full bolt in turbo kit that doesn't blow up the stock 2zz-ge in the Type 111 Lotus Elises. I have a feeling not many. I had hoped I wouldn't run into the age thing on this forum, but I guess you have to work around that on car forums.


read what I just posted

At real Man's HP levels its redundent and useless.

The port size is the only arguable perf difference at high power levels (like4-600whp).

Time attack cars and road racers are in that range.

Twin scroll is more effective for hp goals there-in

Most setups in the 300 whp plus mark that I have seen on this forum have headwork done to them. My point in bringing this up is that the VE flows extermely well without any work. You can get by just fine without doing headwork to a VE. This saves you some money when planning your build. It also saves you money on the cost of cams. The stock SR20VE cams so far are the best available cams for turbo power due to the design characteristics.

Anything else?

[O3DigitalBath]

I had hoped I wouldn't run into the age thing on this forum, but I guess you have to work around that on car forums.


again, this thread might as well be a copy of at least 1 thread on this and every other nissan board...so far I havn't seen any new info and its just arguing the same points that have been around for years....So, age would play a factor in that you would have been around for this the first time around when it was actually a new discussion.

It would be like if I started making a thread about how great KA-T was...its been talked about before, there is no new info. so why do we keep arguing one side or the other.

btw I really don't need your resume to know that you arn't a complete fucktard when you talk about this stuff but it just really doesn't matter.

and to the arguement about doing headwork over slapping a stock VE head...if we have an SR we already have a det head, I havn't seen the price on VE heads recently but I know last I saw they were not cheap and were not easy to come by. DET head goes right on, no mods and easier to get aftermarket parts.

and like steve said "real power" you would get rid of that VVT anyways...you know like toda's vtec killer cams.

we need to just let this shit die unless someone has some new info or something.

[jilo]

i dont see you giving any info, just bitching...

whats "real" power any fucking way 5-600+? so a responsive 4-500hp engine isnt real enough for ya?
power is a general term, yea big numbers are cool, im guessing you like them. so when you pull away from a stop light and have shit power untill 4-5k then your tires let loose im sure its real fun for ya.
im sure you like it when your torque curve is shit and power comes in at 5k. sweet.
a 3071 twin scroll and this head on a det block would make for an awesom powerband. if you cant comprehend that ill definatley stop arguing. i dunno about the other guy tho he seems to have something for every occasion

[CKAMC]

Power Power Power.

I don't see the reason why you need so much, when you still suck at handling 300whp.

"Real Man Power" is when one can beat the other on whatever track (excluding drag) simply because he can use his 300whp car better than the guy with the 500whp.

VTC on the other hand from what I have heard with a aftermarket nvcs intake pulley can play with 272 cams.

a big large portion of this forum likes to attend drift events, not as many do time attack.

I started out on Sr20forum...and yeah zilvia/240sx/silvia owners have quite a different take on their cars compared to their FWD brothers.

AGAIN VE/VE+T is cool... but its just not how this community goes about things.

[mRclARK1]

There is VERY VERY few people on here who would need anything more than lets say a pretty much stock 20det with a 2871 or maybe a 30...

Agreed. In other words, go with what is cheapest and easiest to find, but will still give you (reliabley) your desired power levels.

I'm NOT saying the VE head swap is no good, useless, dumb etc etc... just the opposite, it IS a good head swap. IMHO it's just not worth the extra effort and money to do it for most people.

It would kind of be like swapping in an RB26, when your HP goal was only about 200ish to begin with, and could have been done easier and cheaper by going with an SR. It's a bad analogy, I know... best I can come up with right now. lol

[articdragon192]

I dunno, I kinda dig the idea of having a very broad powerband. On my old KA, the way I modded it, the powerband was up in the higher RPMs. However with my VG and the extra torque downlow, it's awesome just cruising around at like 1.5k rpms in 5th gear.

Plus, 400hp in a S-chassis is insane. Has anyone ever been in a S-chassis pushing over 350 to the wheels? That's already good enough power. Anymore and you'll need to work on getting it to the ground. IMO, a broader powerband would be very idea, especially if the car is a daily driven car.

[Mazworx]

Oh, and a DET will never make more power than a VET. That's just fact. Head design doesn't allow for it. VET low end will always be far better than DET low end. That's just fact.


I haven't seen a VET make more power than my DET. I don't disagree that the VE is a far superior in an N/A application, but when you look for ultimate power on a turbo application, port design isn't the deciding factor. The real question is, can an SR20 bored and stroked to a 2.5 with a VE head dominate the K-series engine?

[projectdrifter]

I haven't seen a VET make more power than my DET. I don't disagree that the VE is a far superior in an N/A application, but when you look for ultimate power on a turbo application, port design isn't the deciding factor. The real question is, can an SR20 bored and stroked to a 2.5 with a VE head dominate the K-series engine?


you should pick up a ve head and do your black magic. love your car mark. its amazing simply amazing.:wackit:

[Taiden]

I haven't seen a VET make more power than my DET. I don't disagree that the VE is a far superior in an N/A application, but when you look for ultimate power on a turbo application, port design isn't the deciding factor. The real question is, can an SR20 bored and stroked to a 2.5 with a VE head dominate the K-series engine?


Mazworx, I know you have way more experience with these motors than I could even imagine having. That being said I am sure your DET has way more done to it than any VET in the states, plus it has however many years of R&D that you have put into it already.

As for the NA question, as you know, there are a handful a people who claim they will be able to make around 280 whp with a bored and stroked VE. I haven't seen one yet, so who knows. One of the limiting factors for sr20forum is the FWD guys don't like converting to an ECU that can use a map sensor, thus making the number of SR20s running around with open ITBs pretty low.

Mazworx, can you please speak to the community about the low end turbo spooling characteristics of the NeoVVL system? I have a feeling they will take what you say to heart more than me, and I am sure you have some insight on the whole matter that I don't have. :)



Oh, and just so you guys know what I mean about needing no headwork. It doesn't matter if you have the DET head already. Sell it off for $50-100 on here as a complete head. Throw out the cost of getting the thing ported and polished, how much do you guys pay for it on here, $150? Then ignore cams, why? Because historically these have done the trick for the FWD guys. That's at least $300 there. What's that stack up to?

$300 + $150 + $50 (or $100)

$500-$550 you save from picking the VE head.

VE head is $800.

That makes it a $300 upgrade minus the other things you need to get it hooked up right. Of course if you just did a MegaSquirt setup (better than a lot of people give it credit for) you'd be paying for that (no more than $200) and for a Ford EDIS 4 system (junkyard), you wouldn't have to pay the cost of the SR20VET X-Trail CAS (which was quoted around $400 new OEM on sr20forum, some people might be able to get it cheaper here though).

SR20VE
Intake cam
Low lobe: 8.4mm lift @ 220 duration
High lobe:10.7mm lift @ 264 duration

Exhaust cam
Low lobe: 6.6 mm lift @ 244 duration
High lobe:10.34 mm lift @ 268 duration


By the way, thank you all for giving me +rep votes. I appreciate it. :)

[projectdrifter]

where do you find ve heads. id be intrested in picking one up and building/port polish,oversized valves ect ect. see what it can do.

[projectdrifter]

a little something i dug up.

Since a small turbo with higher backpressure won't work well with the overlap of the long duration high rpm VE cams, this probably isn't the best swap to undertake. The VE heads are about 3cc smaller than the standard DE heads so putting a VE head on a DE block will rise the DE's CR a small amount (approximately 1/2 CR depending on the starting CR, about 9:1). Using an SR16VE head on a naturally aspirated SR20DE will decrease power from the SR20VE due to the slightly lower C/R. You'll need the VE wiring harness, oil pump, and ECU. Jim Wolf Technology stocks VE oil pumps. Your biggest problem will be finding just a VE head, as they are usually sold as an entire long block. Tap the oil http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/june04/ask_sarah/images/sr20ve.jpg feed on the block for the head as the VE's have an extra oil passage going to the solenoids. The head gaskets are also different. The newer VE's have a redesigned intake manifold and equal length stainless steel exhaust manifold as well as an enlarged header pipe diameter. Also, the later P12 SR20VE "20V" and the X-Trail GT SR20VET have drive by wire and were direct ignition, using a crank angle sensor like the S13 DET's but mounted on the back of the head like a FF distributor. The distributor must be modified. Belts, plugs, wires, oil, fuel, and air filters, etc are all the same between the DE and VE. Depending on the VE cam, the pistons need valve notches because the VE cams run a lot more overlap and some of the DE pistons may not be deep enough. The SR16VE and N1 cams will require deeper notches. The VE intake manifold is shorter than the DE manifold and has a different port design. A 2.0 SE manifold will not bolt up to a VE. On the exhaust side, depending on the port, VE ports shift away from the center between 1/8" and 1/4". For N/A applications, using a DE header on a VE overlaps the ports, causing reversion on the short side of the port flow and slightly decreasing horsepower. A late gen Hotshot or AEBS header slightly blocks port flow but increases flow on the bottom of the port so power decreases in one range, increases in another. Mike Kojima is currently working with Hotshot on a prototype that will fit the VE head.

this could be old news and a repost.

[projectdrifter]

R16VE Specifications

Standard Engine Specifications

Power: 129kW at 7800 rpm Torque: 162 Nm at 7200 rpm Rev-limit: 8000 rpm Compression Ratio: 11:1 Capacity: 1596 cc Bore: 86mm Stroke: 68.7mm Rod Ratio: 2.047 Bore/Stroke Ratio: 1.25 Engine Weight: 132 kg Camshaft Specifications

SR16VE Cams

Low Cams
Intake Duration: 200 Intake Lift: 7.1 Intake Centre Angle: 100 Exhaust Duration: 244 Exhaust Lift: 7.95 Exhaust Centre Angle: 122 Low Overlap: 0 High Cams
Intake Switch-over: 5600 rpm Intake Duration: 280 Intake Lift: 11.1 Intake Center Angle: 100 Exhaust Switch-over: 6700 rpm Exhaust Duration: 280 Exhaust Lift: 11.1 Exhaust Centre Angle: 110 High Overlap: 70 SR16VE N1 Cams

Low Cams
Intake Duration: 220 Intake Lift: 8.4 Intake Center Angle: 110 Exhaust Duration: 244 Exhaust Lift: 7.95 Exhaust Centre Angle: 122 Low Overlap: 0 High Cams
Intake Switch-over: 5600 rpm Intake Duration: 288 Intake Lift: 12.0 Intake Centre Angle: 104 Exhaust Switch-over: 6700 rpm Exhaust Duration: 288 Exhaust Lift: 11.9 Exhaust Centre Angle: 110 High Overlap: 74

[frobro85]

i'am confused as to why you are arguing so hard

1- NA motors naturaly have to flow good because of no power adder, so to move more air and have a good power band from two cams is basic

2- ball bearing turbos can spool pretty fast and give good top end if you size them right

3- the less piping after the turbo the fast the spool

4- a/f ratio's and timing also can give you a faster spool(tuning)

5- driving style plays a big part

so the way i look at it if your goal is 300hp this argument is needless, unless u want to have a trick setup

but truth be told my thought is if it ain't broke don't fix it:fawk2:

[turtl631]

Can you use DE exhaust manifolds on the VE? What about intake manis? If people would need to run hard to find VE manifolds, that would be another strike against the practicality of this setup for RWD cars.

[Taiden]

Can you use DE exhaust manifolds on the VE? What about intake manis? If people would need to run hard to find VE manifolds, that would be another strike against the practicality of this setup for RWD cars.

DE exhaust manifolds bolt directly to the VE head. Due to the large port design though, in order to get maximum performance from a DE header/mani you need to whip out your trusty dremel and resize the flange ports slightly so they match. This has been done more than several times and works just fine.

[Taiden]

a little something i dug up.

Since a small turbo with higher backpressure won't work well with the overlap of the long duration high rpm VE cams, this probably isn't the best swap to undertake. The VE heads are about 3cc smaller than the standard DE heads so putting a VE head on a DE block will rise the DE's CR a small amount (approximately 1/2 CR depending on the starting CR, about 9:1). Using an SR16VE head on a naturally aspirated SR20DE will decrease power from the SR20VE due to the slightly lower C/R. You'll need the VE wiring harness, oil pump, and ECU. Jim Wolf Technology stocks VE oil pumps. Your biggest problem will be finding just a VE head, as they are usually sold as an entire long block. Tap the oil http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/june04/ask_sarah/images/sr20ve.jpg feed on the block for the head as the VE's have an extra oil passage going to the solenoids. The head gaskets are also different. The newer VE's have a redesigned intake manifold and equal length stainless steel exhaust manifold as well as an enlarged header pipe diameter. Also, the later P12 SR20VE "20V" and the X-Trail GT SR20VET have drive by wire and were direct ignition, using a crank angle sensor like the S13 DET's but mounted on the back of the head like a FF distributor. The distributor must be modified. Belts, plugs, wires, oil, fuel, and air filters, etc are all the same between the DE and VE. Depending on the VE cam, the pistons need valve notches because the VE cams run a lot more overlap and some of the DE pistons may not be deep enough. The SR16VE and N1 cams will require deeper notches. The VE intake manifold is shorter than the DE manifold and has a different port design. A 2.0 SE manifold will not bolt up to a VE. On the exhaust side, depending on the port, VE ports shift away from the center between 1/8" and 1/4". For N/A applications, using a DE header on a VE overlaps the ports, causing reversion on the short side of the port flow and slightly decreasing horsepower. A late gen Hotshot or AEBS header slightly blocks port flow but increases flow on the bottom of the port so power decreases in one range, increases in another. Mike Kojima is currently working with Hotshot on a prototype that will fit the VE head.

this could be old news and a repost.

This is for a VE head on a SR20DE block, something that no one really bothers doing because the VE is safest run on a VE oil pump, which is very similar if not the same as a DET oil pump. When you slap a VE head on a DET block you end up with about 8.8:1 compression, which is fine, because Nissan made the SR20VET 9:1 compression because they knew that the better head cooling would allow them to safely run higher compression.

[wannabe_drifter]

It would have good power down low and still have power up in the rpm.
That would make an awesome car for daily driving and some weekends on the track.

If you are only shooting for high end horse it not worth it for sure.
But it really seems like an interesting upgrade.

[projectdrifter]

looking a the cam profile alone u see can see why as a na car it would be very nice. it is using very similar cams as a stage 2 272 as far as lift(12.0) i personally i wouldn't say its a much better head it just seems to have better components in it. id the det rwd head came with the solid pivot and deg of cam/ cam spec im sure the det would be very stout as a stock platform. this is just my 2 cents if its a new comment please correc me.
on a side not usually a high wheel hp vtec car/turbo has issues with the cam /overlap switching over is one of the week points where timing can go erratic. so im not sure it would be the best sooted head for a turbo application. nissan did a pretty good job developing it as a na.

[jobestudios]

hope to god nobody is arguing if this is practical or not

[Taiden]

on a side not usually a high wheel hp vtec car/turbo has issues with the cam /overlap switching over is one of the week points where timing can go erratic. so im not sure it would be the best sooted head for a turbo application. nissan did a pretty good job developing it as a na.


Some notes on that. Most VTEC honda ECUs use the map sensor readings to switch the cams. As such, the exact RPM where it switches can change. Unless the ECU is also set to change the ignition maps when the cams change, there can be a fuzzy spot around the area where the switch occurs. With VE swap you generally use an RPM switch which always switches at the same exact RPM. This makes the tuning slightly more straightforward when using the VE head.

This is what I have learned from talking to Honda guys anyway, I have never seen this myself.

[Taiden]

Oh yeah, N1 cams are great for NA, but most fwd VE+T guys are using the stock SR20VE cams. Up until a few weeks ago it was next to impossible to get N1 cams, but now Nissan is regrinding them for seperate sale. As such there are two or so people on sr20forum.com who can get a full set for around $550.

[O3DigitalBath]

so the way i look at it if your goal is 300hp this argument is needless, unless u want to have a trick setup

but truth be told my thought is if it ain't broke don't fix it:fawk2:



ding ding ding

PM sent

[Taiden]

ding ding ding

PM sent

PM replied.

I hope I can at least spark a few people to reconsider this as yet another way to gain power out of our beloved SR20 motors. I know I've caught the eye of one member already... :x:

[turtl631]

Another possible objection from this crowd would be tuning. Most people on Zilvia run rom tunes from Enthalpy and others that have proven to be quite reliable for the most part, and are usually reputed to be better thought out than most of the JWT tunes. How easy is it to tune the VE ecu? I know the rom tuners have just recently cracked the S14 SR ecus, nobody does the S14 OBDII KA ecus, etc. So if the ECU isn't easy to tune, it might not be worth it for most people to even consider. I don't think Megasquirt would go over big with most Zilvians. But shoot, if I could put on a VE head for maybe a $400-$500 total outlay and run a ported DE exhaust mani on it with easy rom tuning capability, I'd possibly consider this later on. But most likely, there will be at least one or two factors that just make it too much for minimal returns (for the average user looking for maybe 350whp).

[projectdrifter]

well the head alone is roughly 650-800bux than you have to figure out a ton of stuff 2 make it work. u could sent your det head to cnc porting and spend that in a port/polish or a stage 3 head job and flow more air than a ve would. so you would be doing this swap to impress the nissan guys who know what they are looking at.

[Taiden]

well the head alone is roughly 650-800bux than you have to figure out a ton of stuff 2 make it work. u could sent your det head to cnc porting and spend that in a port/polish or a stage 3 head job and flow more air than a ve would. so you would be doing this swap to impress the nissan guys who know what they are looking at.

:blah:

it's not JUST the head flow that makes it worth it. please (re)read the thread.

[steve shadows]

. How easy is it to tune the VE ecu? I know the rom tuners have just recently cracked the S14 SR ecus, nobody does the S14 OBDII KA ecus, etc.

why just get a real mans ecu, a standalone

lol

I love pushing you guys over the edge.

"real man's _____"

real men love turbo lag

[Koopa Troopa]

well the head alone is roughly 650-800bux than you have to figure out a ton of stuff 2 make it work. u could sent your det head to cnc porting and spend that in a port/polish or a stage 3 head job and flow more air than a ve would. so you would be doing this swap to impress the nissan guys who know what they are looking at.


The stage 3 head job is alot of credits though and for the same money you could get the stage 4 turbo which produces way better power.

[frobro85]

ok now i'am confused, has anyone thought about this:wtf:

everyone is saying p&p for the most power but for all the flow work you do, lower duration cams with less overlap flow better at lower engine speeds. if the engine can move more air at low speeds and run better with no boost then the turbo gets more exhaust to use(better respones off the turbo and when spooling). for street use or were you want the largest power band its great. a dual cam setup or vvt is going to have more flow at different engine speeds beacause of two cams that give different operating ranges. everyone is missing the point he is trying to make of the uses it holds. while it would cost money to do the ve swap its still a very reasonable idea if you want a broad powerrange and have a somewhat large turbo setup and have already started dumping money for more power. if you are broke like me use commen sence and start finding ways to cut boost lag or change your driving style like stated before.

[Koopa Troopa]

Hello and welcome to 2 pages ago. All your points have already been made and already replied to.

[Taiden]

I know Calum has a version of his Realtime Daughterboard that functions on the S13 KA, S13 SR20, S14 SR20, B13 SR20, B14 SR20 and all the P10/P11 ecus.

I don't want to say that he has one for the S14 KA ecu, but he might.

[CKAMC]

whats the point of this thread being alive still?

[Koopa Troopa]

So people can justify a VTec head on a DET block...

[mRclARK1]

PM replied.

I hope I can at least spark a few people to reconsider this as yet another way to gain power out of our beloved SR20 motors. I know I've caught the eye of one member already... :x:

I don't think anyone is saying that it's NOT going to gain power etc... From what I've read what most people are saying, me included, is that for MOST people's applications and goals, the DET head that comes oh so conviniently bolted to the DET block, will do the job just fine. Therefore, the time and effort to find and swap a VET head, isn't necessary. If I could get my hands on a VET head easily, for cheap, I may just do it. But for my car, the present DET head will meet the necessary requirements for my goals. :)

[vanish1]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4867/scan5lp2.jpg

9-10 psi VET with a turbo that was picked to hold 25 psi to 9200 RPM.

this is so sick

[steve shadows]

this is so sick

why? this has to do with turbo efficency and cam profile

[Taiden]

why? this has to do with turbo efficency and two cam profiles

fixed for accuracy :bigok:

[steve shadows]

fixed for accuracy :bigok:

no it doesnt

after 4500 its on that other cam profile? Whats your point?

your point is the two different cam profiles are making the jump in HP?

...uh the jump over does not effect max output after switch over, the cam profiles duration does.

Why do people not understand that Variable timing is technical accomplishment for fuel economy, not a racing application in design.

this is not that amazing spool or high torque in low end at all.

It these are the graphs for evidence of how amazing Nissan vtec is then im out totally after this.

I hope to god that is like a gt35r. Otherwise there is nothing amazing about that graph except for your additonal caption of only 10 psi being the boost on the run.

Looks comprable to any redtop sr20det with a gt3071R and higher compression pistons and Solid Lifters.

I have seen hundreds of dyno graphs of sr's making even more torque than that at the low end and high end.

Your claiming 439 whp with 10 psi of boost on that graph, lets get deep into the details, mod list, car pictures of under hood turbo specifications, compression ratio etc.

are these corrected or uncorrected numbers as well?

If you can backup the 10 psi claims and corrected numbers, Im just curious what your point of the graph is? The high RPM breathing is not the work of the variable cam timing if the cams switch over when mid-range torque comes on and the turbo is into efficency, that is the fault of the 2nd profiles characteristics which if the VE was removed on the head and cams were replaced with standard non ve camshafts with the smiliar proflie you could achieve the same run out up into high rpm efficency. Thats where the port design on this head your arguing for is more apt than the redop. Is that your point?


now here is an example of drop off primarily due to camshaft duration and hindering caused by flow rate of turbine housing/wheel vs. head output at higher breathing areas on the sr20det redtop (codyace)

all of the following graphs are motors in stock compression range (cody im not 100% but i know the other two are stock or lower than stock rwd red top compression aka 8.5:1).

http://www.e-rak.com/cody/albums/Dynos/ace240dyno.jpg

Here is an sr20det

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/gspechybrids/30r20264s2s20greddy20ip.jpg

GT3076R stock compression 17psi , 264 intake , 272 exaust

and heres a big honking one ...
http://img2.putfile.com/main/5/14023210930.jpg

GT35R same cams as above one run at 1 bar one at 2.

Note* both of these are single scroll! no twin scroll and very large cams on standard old school sr heads!

This is WITHOUT SOLID LIFTERS (hence stop of pull before 8) and without solid lifter camshafts (with a more aggressive ramp rate for higher output at higher rpms). aka HKS step 3 solid lift cams which can be used to keep torque drop off marginal into 9-9500 rpms with the proper pairing with turbine section.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb129/shadowerks/scan5lp2.jpg

please dont take my analysis or comments the wrong way, I think it's great that we are starting to have these kinds of thought provoking tuning discussions on zilvia.

[codyace]

FWIW: I've driven HPDE and street with a good firends VVL NX2000 and let me assure you, in a gutted 2500ish lbs car, it's a blast for a 180/190 whp setup. It's not going to be taking down any mildly moddied turbo det, but it's mroe than enough to beat up on stock/close to stock ones ones.


Is it disbelief that maybe the FWD guys are doing *something* right?

VVL is hugly popular as it presents an excellent NA, low worry setup for guys not looking to bust their FWD trannys.



The SR20VE will pass Cali smog with no EGR and a cat. Proven fact done over and over again on sr20forum.

So can DET's. Both ultimately fail visual though as they do not hve those items.

Who cares about the low RPMs? (low as in 4k and under)

Drive my car, or similar setups, an you'll realize who is king on the HPDE circuit. High R's and big power are great for drag/street racing, but watching a big power laggy turbo car try to manage itself on track staying at those high RPM's is almost funny to watch. By the time he's done spinning and sputtering, my little car is gone.


People care, so they pick the smallest turbo that will give the max pressures they want at max RPM. Saying low rpm power is useless is a pretty false claim.

Response>Hype Horsepower has always been my motto. Big turbo cars are fun, but a more responsive smaller turbo car is more fun overall.



4. Even in the Honda world frankenstein engines aren't the best. Sickest Honda's I've seen use dart blocks and the like.

K24/k20 combos are pretty sick if I must say... 230/240 n/a whp is nothing shabby.


http://www.sr20forum.com/all-motor/171172-big-dollar-engine-has-nooo-power-3.html

Miko does a good job of diagnosing his problem. You can't use that particular example as a way to cover them all as my friend with the nx dynod bone stock:

http://www.e-rak.com/gallery/d/23106-2/nx-ve-dyno.JPG

I don't care, that's why I have a T04S that'll see max boost at 4500 RPMs. I will be shifting ~/@ 9k RPMs. I don't know about you but I have never seen a 4K RPM drop while upshifting.

That's what 2 step rev limiters are for....

I dont know why you're aguing about engine dynamics when it's apparent all you like is big, high end, street race hp.


Out of curiosity, what sort of racing do people do on Zilvia?

Street race and pretend to drift [/quote]

The majority of sr20forum road races and autocrosses. The minority drag races.

There ae a good number of members here that road race and do competitive drifting, but ratio wise it's small.

If I am arguing about low end torque against a bunch of drag racers / street racers, I see why you are all so stubborn.

If I am arguing against grip racers... oh deary me. :(

Read my above comment. Anyone involved with grip racing has 3071r's or smaller.

Most of the people rooting for a VE head have never driven "LAGGY" sr20det setups around a road racing track, let along ever even gotten close to making 500whp (response or not).

Truth...I hope I stand out as one of those who has been fortunate to drive and be in 500 hp domestics and imports lol.

I think its a semi-cost effective alternative for the FWD guys who are being classed in a particular form of road racing.

VVL's are classed really into anything, as they are natural motors in the US. They are a good solution to those guys who don't want to bust trannys doing drag racing/HPDE....low torque, nice HP.


I drive Gymkhana and touge and I have no use for a low profile cam. Sorry but reality is winning this war paper racer.

Ever been in a VE-T car? or even a VE car? I have. They are quite fun. Are they something I would def look into if I was a FWD owner, but nothing RWD oriented.

seriously give up, if you want low end go LSx series...lets see how your lil VET setup does against LS series V8....

Everyday I drive mine I wonder what a nasty 400/400 LSx would be like in my car...


You can try and explain to me how cool VVT is all you want, I work at a shop building honda's. It's nothing new, and Nissans 2 solenoid thing isn't all that great. You arn't going to find guys making huge differences in gains from having them kick over at different times.

Maybe not a ton of power, but better drivability. Guys that road race like to set the engage around 45/4600ish and the disengage at 4100 for smaller, technical courses where they can use momentum to keep power up.

And FWIW: A b13 with a stock ecu bolton VE will burn a EK hatch with a stock ecu bolton b16/b18

the point i was trying to echo towards was that if you try to make big power on that head you will invariably have to buy camshafts that end up eliminating the "variable timing" feature of the motor.

Just like hondas, just like VTC heads...etc.

the VE N1 cams make substantial power, and JWT will be releasing in the near future their VVL cams...2 for lower power, 1 for all out madness. I'm predicting numbers higher than k20 cars see :D



I had hoped I wouldn't run into the age thing on this forum, but I guess you have to work around that on car forums.

You're not as much fighting newbness, just alot of people on this forum are stuck in their ways and follow only a select few. It's not as bad as the Supra forums, but close lol. Guys like Steve are very smart when it comes to the SR20, and he knows who/how/ and where to make power with these things turbocharged...take anything he says as him trying to learn, not trying to cut ya.



Most setups in the 300 whp plus mark that I have seen on this forum have headwork done to them.

Ummmm I'd say the amount of turbo people with headwork are very slim around here and sr20forum. Unless SR20 guys are going to people who really know the head, it's a waste of time IMO. See it all the time in the FWD turbo world, guys go spend 500-600 on some wild port/head work to see 3 average HP. Great for an ITA car, not so much worth it, when i can crank the boost a psi for free and make more power.

I'm 400/330 on a cam only internal motor...friend of mine with a 28rs on a cam only (both of us have JWT S3 cams) sentra made 360/330 too.


i dont see you giving any info, just bitching...

whats "real" power any fucking way 5-600+? so a responsive 4-500hp engine isnt real enough for ya?
power is a general term, yea big numbers are cool, im guessing you like them. so when you pull away from a stop light and have shit power untill 4-5k then your tires let loose im sure its real fun for ya.
im sure you like it when your torque curve is shit and power comes in at 5k. sweet.
a 3071 twin scroll and this head on a det block would make for an awesom powerband. if you cant comprehend that ill definatley stop arguing. i dunno about the other guy tho he seems to have something for every occasion

Excellent points. I lol at that one guy who keeps saying 't04r, 4500-9k'....that sounds like the least fun way possible. I prefer '2871r, 3300-8000'


"Real Man Power" is when one can beat the other on whatever track (excluding drag) simply because he can use his 300whp car better than the guy with the 500whp.

All day long I could watch ITA cars with 140/150 whp take down 300 hp turbo cars with shitty drivers.


I started out on Sr20forum...and yeah zilvia/240sx/silvia owners have quite a different take on their cars compared to their FWD brothers.

AGAIN VE/VE+T is cool... but its just not how this community goes about things.

FWD seems to be more resopnse oriented forum, rwd is more of a big power forum IMO. And yes, VE/VET are fun fun fun.

I dunno, I kinda dig the idea of having a very broad powerband. On my old KA, the way I modded it, the powerband was up in the higher RPMs. However with my VG and the extra torque downlow, it's awesome just cruising around at like 1.5k rpms in 5th gear.

This is why I loved my old v8's :D


Plus, 400hp in a S-chassis is insane. Has anyone ever been in a S-chassis pushing over 350 to the wheels? That's already good enough power. Anymore and you'll need to work on getting it to the ground. IMO, a broader powerband would be very idea, especially if the car is a daily driven car.

I'll be the first to admit that 400 hp is a ton (especially on a responsive car) on the street. I have big time traction issues on cold tires and cold streets, and 1st gear is uselss when racing :D


I haven't seen a VET make more power than my DET. I don't disagree that the VE is a far superior in an N/A application, but when you look for ultimate power on a turbo application, port design isn't the deciding factor. The real question is, can an SR20 bored and stroked to a 2.5 with a VE head dominate the K-series engine?

Just give JWT some time...we'll be seeing VVL 2.0 cars making toys out of k20 cars. We also haven't seen many VET's making big power as the 'innovators' sort to speak of VVL power are all FWD guys....

why just get a real mans ecu, a standalone

Blah! ;)


real men love turbo lag

Double Blah! :)


Why do people not understand that Variable timing is technical accomplishment for fuel economy, not a racing application in design.

VVL in Nissanland wass totally for economy to start.


I have seen hundreds of dyno graphs of sr's making even more torque than that at the low end and high end.

I get one!


all of the following graphs are motors in stock compression range (cody im not 100% but i know the other two are stock or lower than stock rwd red top compression aka 8.5:1).

http://www.e-rak.com/cody/albums/Dynos/ace240dyno.jpg


Stock bore, stock stroke, stock CR, stock pistons. New engine is the same, just forged 86mm 8.5:1. 2871r .64, 20 psi, JWT ECU and JWT S3 cams, Greddy IM.


please dont take my analysis or comments the wrong way, I think it's great that we are starting to have these kinds of thought provoking tuning discussions on zilvia.

I think he is. Again, Steve isn't here to bash you, just here to make you think about your claims.



There are many more things to address with this swap then that. Where is the distributor going to sit? How can you adjust timing...what parts are needed to swap over? How about the wireing aspect. KA harness modded to accept VVL head engine?


Again, VE's are very fun NA in little cars. They make great HP per dollar when compared to making similar power out of a DE, and dont' bust transmissions in FWD cars like turbo setups do.

VET is a nice concept, but to involved for an S chassis car IMO. Leave them to the FWD guys :D

[SILVIA_KIDs14.5]

http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr01.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr04.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/sr02.jpg
http://www.eagle-r.jp/img/sr20ve/ksr02.jpg
sweet.
shits lookin sick how hard was the wireing to do? i was looking for one to build up and turbo.

[steve shadows]

please stop cluttering the discussion

[O3DigitalBath]

And FWIW: A b13 with a stock ecu bolton VE will burn a EK hatch with a stock ecu bolton b16/b18


If we were actully going to compare to a honda wouldn't it be fair to do it with similar cars (ie year chassis and motor)

SO lets say a EF hatch (88-91) with a ITR in it (b18c5 or jdm B18c)

seeing how the b13 is early 90's and the VE is a late 90's motor with ~200hp and the b16 and such (a 160hp motor just isn't fair..) so ITR with 200hp is more fair.

unless you were just saying b16 because of price (but honda motors are in more demand than FWD nissan motors so price will always be higher)



ANYWAY that just bothered me, but LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC with more info

[Koopa Troopa]

Drive my car, or similar setups, an you'll realize who is king on the HPDE circuit. High R's and big power are great for drag/street racing, but watching a big power laggy turbo car try to manage itself on track staying at those high RPM's is almost funny to watch. By the time he's done spinning and sputtering, my little car is gone.

Never driven HPDE and I could care less about NASA crap. Doesn't mean a thing to me.


I dont know why you're aguing about engine dynamics when it's apparent all you like is big, high end, street race hp.

Yeah sorry, I like my high duration, high lift cams and a turbo that'll flow at 10K so I must not know anything. Forgive me great one. :cj:



Ever been in a VE-T car? or even a VE car? I have. They are quite fun. Are they something I would def look into if I was a FWD owner, but nothing RWD oriented.


No and no, I could care less about a 4 door family car with VTEC. Although I have a friend who had a t3 super t70 on a B18C in an Eg6 and that was insane... I also have a friend with a Toda Stroked B16A Eg6 and that car is also fun. Feels like it has no power whatsoever but the speedometer moves just as fast as the tac...

[codyace]

Never driven HPDE and I could care less about NASA crap. Doesn't mean a thing to me.

Then why comment about the resopnse of the VE? What exactly IS your car built for then? Streetracing? Forum hype?


Yeah sorry, I like my high duration, high lift cams and a turbo that'll flow at 10K so I must not know anything. Forgive me great one. :cj:

Don't take it personal, but a good engine build will attempt to find power all over, not just stick big cams with a big turbo on a car with solid valvetrain.

No and no, I could care less about a 4 door family car with VTEC.

So why are you arguing that VE's are a bad idea? It would be like me telling a Chef how Kobe beef should taste without ever eating or seeing it.

[Koopa Troopa]

Then why comment about the resopnse of the VE? What exactly IS your car built for then? Streetracing? Forum hype?

Touge


Don't take it personal, but a good engine build will attempt to find power all over, not just stick big cams with a big turbo on a car with solid valvetrain.

Big cams are what's required to rev, big cams push the powerband higher, larger exhaust housings are required to produce power in high rpms. Dream all you want about some miracle turbo motor that produces awesome power on every level....


So why are you arguing that VE's are a bad idea? It would be like me telling a Chef how Kobe beef should taste without ever eating or seeing it.


I don't think you understand what this thread is about. This thread originally begain with putting a VE head on a DET block and running it in a S chasis car. We have been going back and forth on weither or not it was an awesome idea to do on an S chasis car.... Not a B13. Go to www.drivemykidstoschool.org if you want to talk about Sentras.

[articdragon192]

What difference does it make running a VE head on an SR in an s-chassis or a b-chassis? It's still a fucking SR20VET.

[Koopa Troopa]

Once again this thread is about weither or not it is worth the work to put a VE(T) in a S chasis car... Once again the answer is "no"

[steve shadows]

Once again this thread is about weither or not it is worth the work to put a VE(T) in a S chasis car... Once again the answer is "no"

no i think its also about how the VE is worthless even if you do put it in.

[motorsnail]

Honda people have arhued this for years but the truth always comes out when its built. How is the VE head going to be better then the DE head after somthing is built to that extent? DE head can be modified fully and so could the VE head I dont see how either would flow better considering they are both 2.0 and both heads have been built to withstand the power. If you are arguing that in a fully built race car one head is over the other your retarded considering cams,porting, and all other aspect to be done to a head to make it flow better change the way it ran when it was stock. The VE head isnt better if they are both built, if it is then explain how other then saying "VE head blah blah" once built they both can achieve the same air flow. Vtec is almost the same thing b18c 180hp b18b with cams and port and polish and a tune 180hp for half the price and more torque then the b18c.

[racer98]

Uh, it's a FWD engine?

1) use the p12 Nissan SSS SR20 DFI CAS
2) use the RNN14 GTi-R Intake manifold with minor modification
3) little modification

beware its a highcompression motor so 91oct is just cutting it, 100octain is needed for that motor but in many cases very easy to pull a lot of power out of that motor.

[racer98]

Once again this thread is about weither or not it is worth the work to put a VE(T) in a S chasis car... Once again the answer is "no"

I have a customer who is putting a SR16VE NEO motor into an S30 Z and its going to be turbo with a 6speed from an S15.

[Ca_laurier]

I have a customer who is putting a SR16VE NEO motor into an S30 Z and its going to be turbo with a 6speed from an S15.

you need to use a rwd block. what some guys have done was swap the internals from the sr16 into a s13 sr20de block. lots of work for the power he is looking at making but turboing the neo head with the higher compression is insane.

[Koopa Troopa]

beware its a highcompression motor so 91oct is just cutting it, 100octain is needed for that motor but in many cases very easy to pull a lot of power out of that motor.

So? I got a friend with a high comp B16 running on 93 octane pump


I have a customer who is putting a SR16VE NEO motor into an S30 Z and its going to be turbo with a 6speed from an S15.

Eeeww.. He must hate power.

I've been thinking about building an N/A set up using DET oil squirter's, DE pistons and rods, 20VE head and 16VE cams and carbed. My turbo motor would have to blow to oblivion though but since those motors can be had pretty cheaply here I figured I'd keep the idea out there.

If I had to pay stateside prices for that set up I wouldn't even bother cause it seems like it'd be easier just to do an LS swap...

[PoorMans180SX]

Why are you putting carbs on it? To meet some race classifications or something? Cause otherwise....:loco:

[racer98]

trick is use the Rnn14 Block + SR16VE head + Rnn14 Trottle body set up and use it for a RWD set up.

[jskateborders]

wow... Where'd this come from.

[Koopa Troopa]

trick is use the Rnn14 Block + SR16VE head + Rnn14 Trottle body set up and use it for a RWD set up.

Why use the Pulsar block? You know something I don't?

[morbid]

sr20det block k20a head VTACK TERBO!!1!

[PoorMans180SX]

Everyone does realize that the VE head actually flows much better than the DE head right? Like on a flow bench.

I think all this bickering back and forth is kinda useless. Look at the facts.

VE heads have better ports and a far superior valvetrain setup.

VVL allows continuously variable cam timing on the intake and exhaust side, as well as 2 different cam profiles per cam (these translate to more power and torque across the rpm band regardless of forced induction).

Is it worth the money and time and effort to swap a VE head onto a RWD DET block? I believe that is a matter of opinion.

If you have the money and like a 9000rpm screamer, go for it. If you don't have the money, don't. If you think a 9000rpm screamer is a waste of time, don't.

I would personally like to see/do it. I think a VET would be a blast. Ideally with ITBs and a twin-scroll GT3076R.

[McRussellPants]

Why use the Pulsar block? You know something I don't?

oil passages between RWD and FWD are different, I imagine the Pulsar has a stouter block that the SR16VE, and obviously alot more displacement.

[Taiden]

I am going to resurrect this thread and say: Mazworx drag S15. Told you so.

[racepar1]

I am going to resurrect this thread and say: Mazworx drag S15. Told you so.

You dug-up a 2007 thread just to post that useless, pointless crap???

:down: