LS1 powered S14 with motorplates and modded GTO pan [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

SicBastard

06-16-2007, 03:13 PM

I've been obsessed with getting the engine and t56 as low and far back as possible. To that end I raised the floor of the GTO oil pan as high as I could and still clear at least a 4.125" stroke. Then I cut the ENTIRE front cross support in the middle of the cross member out, something that I havn't seen done before. This required first, reinforcing the bottom of the entire crossmember with 3/16th" plate and then two pieces of 1x1 steel tube between the steering rack mounts. Then I cut out the step at the back of the GTO pan sump so that the back of the sump could go right up against the steering rack.

Modded Crossmember
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/IMG_0733.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/IMG_0733.jpg

Milled pan sitting in engine bay
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00124.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00124.jpg

To give you an idea of how effective all this work is in setting back the engine and trans, here are two pictures of other LS1/S14s:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/BLUP1010269.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/BLUP1010269.jpg

and mine:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02097.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02097.jpg

My new problem is that the engine sits so low that my GTO oil sump now sits 0.75" below my crossmember. And that's not accounting for the 3/16" that I added to the bottom of the original crossmember!

I did not lower the crossmember relative to the car, and do not plan on doing so. Now I don't know what direction to go with the oil system. I only have a junk LS6 block and havn't started the engine build so I can still go any direction that I want. I'd like to stay away from the weight, complexity, and $$$ of a true dry sump system. I have a used accusump system and originally planned on just staying wet sump, and using the accumulator for a little insurance. But the sump is sittling so low that now I'm worried about ground clearance.

I'm torn between leaving it as it is, modifying the pan to use the LS7 twin pump system, or taking 3/4" out of the bottom of the sump, maybe adding wings and baffles and staying wet sump.

I noticed that the guys with project silvia at SCC had their anti-sway bar hanging below their crossmember after installing the front whiteline bar. Maybe I should just install a whiteline bar and call it a tubular oil-pan guard?

What Dave at SCC had to say,

"The front bar hangs down slightly farther than the stock bar, but there have been no problems with bottoming out. We like to think of it as a 27-mm tubular oil-pan guard.

...we hit one of those asphalt waves that get slowly kicked up when thousands of overweight trucks stop in the same place. The ridge of asphalt was high enough to hit the front anti-roll bar, lifting the car off the ground, bending the bar's pivot bushings and slamming the bar into the oil pan. The stock steel pan escaped only slightly dented, but we fear an aluminum pan would crack under a similar impact. If you're going to be sloppy, haphazard drivers like us, steel may be the way to go."

My engine sits further back than an SR so I think I'll be alright in that regard, I dunno?

note the blue bar hangin' low

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0501scc_project_silvia_01_z.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0501scc_project_silvia_01_z.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0310scc_projsilvia10_z.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0310scc_projsilvia10_z.jpg

What do you guys think?

GSXRJJordan

06-16-2007, 03:32 PM

Wow, except for the messed up font html code, great post, and great work!

At first, when you were talking about slicing and dicing the crossmember/gto pan I thought it would be a n00b job, but it looks great.

Is there enough room for you to just add 1/2" or so in height to your motor mounts? It looks like the shifter plate is already pretty close to the top of the tranny tunnel though.

I think the sway bar is a great deflector for road debris, etc, but honestly I drive my s13 low enough to scrape aero/sway/downpipe/exhaust on tiny ass speed bumps, and just driving around the only thing I regularly scrape is the front aero ~ I think it'd be pretty hard to hit the oil pan if you could keep it within 1/2" of the crossmember or so. I know you want it perfect, but that's just food for thought...

Dry sump is tits, but I agree that it's complexity/price is a huge turnoff... The twin pump system from the LS7 would be cool too, but again, I'm just not sure you'd need it.

gsracer

06-16-2007, 03:34 PM

You think you got problems look at how low my v8 sits. About 1 and an 1/8 inch below the crossmember.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/VH%20POWER/IMG_3957.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/VH%20POWER/IMG_3957.jpg

mmdb

06-16-2007, 04:00 PM

Concerning the oil pan being a bit low you could fab up a shield that would prevent rocks or debris from hitting it. You won't have problems going over speed bumps because the oil pan is somewhat inline with the wheels so as the wheels go over bumps the oil pan will clear. I might look like your stock sway bar MIGHT fit if you got your engine that far back. If not then you could always go with a custom sway bar. That's what I'm doing.

slow40

06-16-2007, 04:03 PM

gl man, cant wait for the finished product

SicBastard

06-16-2007, 07:56 PM

The clearances all around the trans are super tight in the tunnel, I couldn't raise 'em even if I wanted to.

And Jordan you're right, the perfectionist in me may just be getting the better of me. Especially because like mmdb said, the sump sits square between the front wheels

GSRACER is that bad boy on the road? Ever scrapped or hit the pan? Is that a VH?

Thanx a ton for the input guys! Here's some more pics:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02110.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02126.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02109.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02130.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02095.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02088.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02090.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02092.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02091.jpg

300hp owen

06-16-2007, 08:07 PM

you can leave it as it is but you should really just add a skidplate under the entire oilpan that is spaced away from it maybe 1/8 inch and being 1/4 thick,that should be enough to avoid cracking the pan, which I have read about before in LS1FD swaps.... these pans do not like to get debris or being poked at.

btw, awesome work, WOW!

Fred Allen Burge

06-16-2007, 08:52 PM

Motor plates make me horny. That is all.

Fred

gunluvS14

06-16-2007, 09:29 PM

love the motor plate

SicBastard

06-17-2007, 07:22 AM

Thanx guys, the motor plate is the Thunder Racing generic plate. All of the other plates out there are angled on the bottom or top to fit the f-bodys which have their frame rails sitting higher relative to the engine than the 240s. It's like the ultimate strut tower bar! I also have a steel mid plate in there. And I ditched the top bolt hole on the bell housing so that I could put a bolt through the firewall and hang the engine without the trans. And of course I can do the opposite too, pull the trans without supporting the engine. The motor plates also double as lightweight accessory mounts. Plus tons of clearance for headers/turbos someday.
It's like a win win win win situation!

JDMPalace

06-17-2007, 01:30 PM

Nice fab work!!

Fred Allen Burge

06-18-2007, 07:13 AM

SicBastard

06-18-2007, 08:03 AM

Ya, they have a lot of advantages it seems. My newest upcoming VQ project (non S-chassis :) ) is gonna have atleast a front plate if not both like yours.

Great work!

Fred

The only disadvantage it seems in NVH. But I'm still young and dumb. I still think noise, free massages, and big cams are cool.

OutToWinPAHC

06-18-2007, 11:49 AM

Looks good, I didn't use a Hinson kit either, I dont like how they cut corners. Or just notch the X member without bracing it.

Great work

My LSX Mutt... LS6 Block, LS2 Heads, LS2 intake, 105mm TB, 60lb injectors, and more.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/outtowinpahc/P1090191.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d47/outtowinpahc/P1090188.jpg

SicBastard

06-18-2007, 04:51 PM

OTWPAHC, Where is that surge tank from? And what did you do for headers? Nice work on getting that frankenstein motor in there!

SicBastard

06-21-2007, 10:41 AM

some more pics

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02145.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02145.jpg

Right now I'm leaning towards staying wet sump and adding some side wings with baffles and these one way valves from billet fabrications out in Simi Valley California.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/op_balls_pan_intro.gif
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/op_balls_pan_intro.gif

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/op_bballs_intro.gif
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/op_bballs_intro.gif

These guys make beautiful custom oil pans, plus they are near my old home town. Any one ever used their stuff?

Fred Allen Burge

06-21-2007, 11:37 AM

Why would you need the one way baffle thing? Is it for racing purposes or is it necessary because of something you modified on the pan?

Fred

SicBastard

06-23-2007, 03:58 PM

Why would you need the one way baffle thing? Is it for racing purposes or is it necessary because of something you modified on the pan?

Fred

I plan on road racing. With an extra reservoir/wing sump on either side of the main sump, oil would be able to "hide" in the outside (of the turn) reservoir, unless there is a one-way valve there to stop it. At the same time the one-way valve on the reservoir sump on the inside side would be open and contributing extra oil capacity directly to the main sump.

SicBastard

07-17-2007, 04:00 PM

I've got a debate giong on at LS1tech.com as to whether or not to retro-fit ABS. I plan on road racing and streeting the car? What do you all think? Am I better off staying manual so that I can control a spin and learn better threshold breaking techniques, or is the shorter stopping distances afforded by ABS something that a max performance car just shouldn't go with out?

tknbkthrsdy4anfg

07-17-2007, 04:04 PM

I would go without ABS. the pedal feel without a box of gizmos in the way is far better in my opinion.

brainfood

07-17-2007, 04:12 PM

Take it from me, I have been road racing and drifting with my s14's for quite some time and the abs on the car just isnt worth keeping. With bigger brakes it seems like the g-sensor causes the abs to kick in before there is wheel lock-up. I dont know if this is true but I 100% prefer no abs on these cars.

SicBastard

07-23-2007, 09:53 PM

Thanx for the real world input guys. I know that there is a wide gap in even 9 year old ABS technology. Right now I'm leaning towards staying with the stock S14 brakes and some green stuff until I can engineer my own big break set up with zo6 calipers or used nascar stuff.

SicBastard

08-27-2007, 04:44 AM

A little off subject on the engine swap, but... I got a job at TTP (a great shop that specializes in LS1s) here in North Jersey and we had a C6 Zo6 in the other day. While the wheels were off I measured the rotor thickness (32mm) and the minimum inside wheel diameter needed to clear the breaks with the 14" rotors (16" exactly). Those 6 pot calipers are rediculously cheap from GM and F'n HUGE! Just some food for thought.

I'm now looking into a high mounted dry-sump pump set-up made by AVIAD, and I bought some LS7 bare CNC'd heads that are over at West Coast Cylinder Heads gettin machined to take some seriously nasty valve springs. So things are still progressing... just slowly.

lazierhobo

08-27-2007, 08:45 AM

rockin fab work man, love to see these types of projects. im looking at doing that 6pot brake setup. probably gonna use two piece rotors, and custom make rotor hats with the correct offset.

RUTH'LESSDET

08-27-2007, 09:08 AM

man this lsx motor is taking over the 240sx scene Ic. I hate america cars but man I just love this motor now its like a sickness!!!:hitit:
....love the post good luck with the project just keep feeding us pictures and video later on:bowdown: :bowrofl: :bowdown: :rawk:

Neejay

10-27-2007, 11:21 AM

Any update to this?

SicBastard

10-27-2007, 03:08 PM

I had to move so I'm still setting up my garage. Bought a new air compressor, and a new welder is in the works. The miller dealer is having a big show and tell day where you can try all the different welders next month, so I'll probably wait till then.

The LS7 heads are still with Richard over at WCCRH, and I just scored an LS7 intake on ebay for $200. I told Richard that I needed to go semi budget on the heads. He has a cnc program for the exhaust ports that add about 25cc/min of flow for $300, and he also has ti valves for about a grand. I will be getting neither of those. The heads come CNC'd from GM and I'm hoping to get away with spinning those rediculously large 2.2" intake valves to 7500 rpm with good ol brute force via WCCRH monster 1.450" (a big block chevy style) dual valve springs. The springs will require a little maching of the seats. The valves will most likely be manley stainless. They are heavy just due to the size.

My Old Speed inc billet LS1 fuel rails come no where near lining up. Now I just have to deside if I should Fab new mounts for the rails or if I should just get new LS7 specific ones?

It's also about time I got my ohlins rebuilt, so they should be going down to South Carolina here pretty quick. I made a really strong plywood shipping box, because the are my new "Precious."

And the last little thing, is that I just picked up a new steering shaft universal joint from the nissan dealership out here on rt 46E. The little POS was $90, but the old one was a little notchy, and there's no point in cheapin out now. I also have a set of 2006 LS2 GTO headers that I've bolted up. I'll see if the drivers side will clear some the steering rack u joint that I just got. The passanger side sticks way out and hits the frame rail, but there are no other clearance issues, so I think that a vette LS2 manifold would be fine on the passanger side. I'll keep yall updated.

-=Peace and Tire Smoke=-

IIIXziuR

10-27-2007, 03:23 PM

This is a good thread. I love fab work and engine hybrid swaps. Man I cant wait to do some stuffs too

SicBastard

11-14-2007, 11:28 AM

I ordered a new millermatic MIG 140 yesterday, so that I can get the momo's mounted, finish the cage, and the mid and motor plates. Then I'm going to try and come up with some kind of clever bracketry for the mounstrous 4" thick radiator. The Ohlins finally did get shipped out last Saturday to Ohlins USA in South Carolina. Keep you fingers crossed for me, so I don't have to sell my house to pay for the rebuilds. The Dampers are a little beat up, and there is some rust on one of the shafts, so I'm going to have to, "overnight some parts in from Japan!" Not really, they'll probably put them on a boat and I'll have them before the end of the summer :)

SicBastard

11-30-2007, 09:07 AM

Cam Plans
Well here is the cam that I cam up with and the engine specs all nice and neat thanks to the "Quick and Dirty Cam/SCR/DCR Calculator Spreadsheet Modified and Simplified by PianoProdigy" that I found somewhere over on LS1tech.com

Lift in inches__________________0.006 0.050 0.200
Intake Duration - ID (first number) 293 244 165
Exhaust Duration - ED (second number) 300 252 169
Lobe Center Angle - LCA (also known as LSA) 109 109 109
Intake Centerline - ICL (LSA - degrees of advance e.g. 114+2 = 112) 110 110 110

Intake Valve opens - IVO 36.5 12 -27.5 BTDC (- indicates ATDC)
Intake Valve closes - IVC 76.5 52 12.5 ABDC
Exhaust Valve Opens - EVO 78 54 12.5 BBDC
Exhaust Valve Closes - EVC 42 18 -23.5 ATDC (- indicates BTDC)
Exhaust Centerline - ECL 108 108 108
Overlap 78.5 30 -51 degrees

Bore 4.125
ST = Stroke 3.622
RL = Rod Length 6.2
Number of cylinders 8
Deck Height (how much pistons come out of the hole) -0.018
Piston Dome or Dish (- for a dome + for a dish) 2
Compressed Head gasket thickness 0.051 cometeic (stock is 0.054)
Cylinder Head Chamber Volume 62.5 (hopefully with the .045 mill)

Static Compression Ratio 12.06 :1
Dynamic Compresion Ratio 8.60 :1
Rod to Stroke Ratio 1.71 :1
Bore to Stroke Ratio 1.14 :1

The plan was to build a cam and motor that would make a ton of horsepower, but have less of a tire shredding tendency to help with traction out of the corners. Redline will most likely be 7500 rpm. I fear giong any higher because of the massive (read heavy) 2.200 stainless intake valves, that I have to use due to budget constraints, in the LS7 heads. I'm also using a milder lobe then most: the older comp "Xtreme RPM for LS1 Hi lift" Which will produce 0.630" lift on both intake and exhaust with the stock LS7 1.8 rockers.
I'm guessing that this engine will peak just under 6800 rpm without much fall off to redline. I'm using a stock but port-matched LS7 intake, and custom headers. The oversquare engine comes out to 392 ci. I think that the 30 degrees of overlap should be just streetable enough. It's the late IVC that I'm hoping will curb the dynamic compression ratio enough for the hi compression pump gas combo, and simultaneously help push the peak power rpm up above the 6300 wall that so many other LS1 engines seem to sit at.

This cam is all still theoretical; the heads and intake are not. So if anyone has any knowledgeable input/ideas to provide, I'm all ears.

IIIXziuR

11-30-2007, 09:47 AM

Awesome work so far man.
I would really like to see this car in person, the work put into it is amazing.
I slowly (but surely) am planning an LS1 swap of my own and this thread really motivated me to do that even more. I love what you havedone so far!

Were abouts in Clifton are you? I would love to have the privelage to stop by your garage and check this thing out in the flesh!
Talk to you later bro and keep up the awesome wrenching.
I will many questions for you in the future!

-RUIZ

Gavster

11-30-2007, 10:16 AM

Wow, I just stumbled upon this, and Im pretty sure youve also seen my thread...we are going for similar goals as far as motor placement goes. Great fab and awesome techniques to achieve your positioning! I too had been worried about ground clearance etc with my RB using a wet sump sys. My final solution is similar to yours...modified xmember! Anyways, just wanted to give you props...it looks great and Im stoked to see some great work on here. Ill keep watching this one!

SicBastard

11-30-2007, 10:34 AM

Thanks for the kind words guys!
Gav, I've been following your build from the get go! Sickness!
Ruiz, shoot me a PM with your phone number, drinking beer and talking about cars in person are what I do best!

And if you're in the NY/NJ area and have any LS1 related qustions
talk to the guys at TTP in Passaic, they do pro alignments and corner weights, and really know the LSX engines inside and out http://www.ttperformance.net/index.shtml
The owner Matt Sorian was nice enough to give me a job there for a few months this summer while I was out of school. Every time we even sneezed any boost at an LSX we were rewarded with 7-800 hp without trying.

SicBastard

12-02-2007, 09:17 AM

I've heard two different, very reputable LSX engine builders mention these lobes in passing, and finally looked them up:

Comp Cams : XTREME MARINE™ HYDRAULIC ROLLERS - HIGH LIFT

These have the same ramp designs as the lower lift Xtreme Marine™ designs but have higher lift to enhance power
output with cylinder head and engine modifications.
LOBE RATED DURATION IN LOBE TAPPET LIFT @ THEORETICAL VALVE LIFT
NUMBER DURATION DEGREES LIFT TDC @ “0” LASH ROCKER ARM RATIO
CAMSHAFT TYPE
.050 .200 106° 110° 1.5 1.6 1.7
3473 290 234 152 .360 .081 .068 .540 .576 .612
3474 292 236 154 .360 .085 .071 .540 .576 .612
3410 294 238 154 .350 .088 .075 .525 .560 .595
3475 294 238 156 .360 .088 .075 .540 .576 .612
3376 296 240 157 .360 .092 .078 .540 .576 .612
3411 300 244 159 .350 .099 .085 .525 .560 .595
3370 304 248 167 .380 .107 .092 .570 .608 .646
3377 306 250 166 .360 .111 .096 .540 .576 .612
3371 308 254 171 .380 .119 .103 .570 .608 .646
3372 314 258 175 .380 .126 .111 .570 .608 .646
3373 318 262 179 .380 .134 .118 .570 .608 .646
3374 322 266 182 .380 .142 .126 .570 .608 .646
3375 326 270 186 .380 .149 .134 .570 .608 .646
3447 330 274 190 .380 .157 .141 .570 .608 .646

also from the 2007 comp cams catalogue it says:

"These profiles use the same design techniques of the baseline Xtreme Energy
™ Hydraulic Rollers but have been optimized
to increase power and durability when run at steady rpm for extended periods of time. Specifically designed
for big blocks with heavier valve train components."

I'm only interested in the intake at 244 @ .05", but its advertised duration (or duration at .006" lift) is 300, vs the 293 of the origianl lobes I was going to use. These lobes sound great, they are designed for big ass heavy big block valves, which is exactly what I'm running with my 2.200" stainless intake valves. I don't need these lasier lobes on the exhaust because they are a more standard (and lighter) 1.600". The larger advertised duration (at the same .500" lift) will also allow me to run a little more advance and still have a lower DCR. At 8.6 I was pushing it a bit before.

I'll call comps help line before making any final decisions, but here's some food for thought.

Who would have thought, Marine Lobes in a road racer?!

1stnissan

12-08-2007, 10:19 PM

Man that is sweet. Good ol LS1 power, gotta love it. God I miss my F-body. I guess my buddy knows someone around where I live in MI who has one as well. I would like to see it in person.

drifting.8

12-09-2007, 06:59 PM

gl man thats sick +1

-rip it up s13-

12-09-2007, 07:04 PM

wow that is soo crazy awesome car man!!!!!!

UNITEDMASTER

12-09-2007, 07:43 PM

Hello, nice work you got there,finally someone is using motor plates it makes mounting the motor so much more easy & you have lots more freedom in fore & aft placement. And now the motor becomes a stressed member to a degree ,it should stiffen up the front end alot.

As for the pan your on the correct path ,I would shorten it ,put wings & trap doors on both sides shorten the pickup if needed, & put a oil cooler to make up for any loss capacity or gain some capacity. Anyhow it looks real good!!!!

Maybe split that .750 your hanging down in half & do a subframe spacer it would be a lil easier than cuting the pan again then you wont hang as much & that (.375) should be doable. It wont change your suspension geometry too too much,& the pan you have now will be safe.

SicBastard

12-10-2007, 09:28 AM

I definitely could lower the crossmember. There's even a 0.770" spacer under the trans mount that I could adjust the height of. Has anyone ever seen a crossmember with the control arm mounting holes moved up? I'd think that at least one of those uber-slammed fools here on zilvia would care enough about their geometry to have tried it.No?

IIIXziuR

12-10-2007, 10:15 AM

working on it much lately Dru?
I know you must be swamped with Exams and such these past few weeks

steezy

12-10-2007, 10:21 AM

great work. nice car . that ls1 is going to be great.

xamraci

12-10-2007, 10:39 AM

Very impressive...

zenki-217

12-10-2007, 10:48 AM

Vengance vindicator cam ftmfw! vengance trick flow heads.. should look into it..

SicBastard

12-10-2007, 03:25 PM

Vengance vindicator cam ftmfw! vengance trick flow heads.. should look into it..

For what reason exactly are you proposing that I drop my LS7 heads and intake for a package that costs $1300+ more, flows at least 20 CFM less, and forces me to use an inferior intake? You should look into it.

McRussellPants

12-10-2007, 04:20 PM

lol.

I don't care about any of this.

but I do know if you don't make long tube/equallengths for the LSx it sounds like total 1950 SBC dick.

with good headers and a superlight clutch/flywheel they sound cherry.

At least by ditching the conventional motor mounts you'll have more room for neat headers.

SicBastard

12-12-2007, 06:16 AM

Mcrussellpants, thanks for another post that's about as helpful as rust on my nuts.Just a quick update on my precious: I got an e-mail from the guys at Ohlins yesterday. They've ordered the parts they need for my refurb and they should be in early January!

Neejay

12-12-2007, 06:18 AM

Mcrussellpants, thanks for another post that's about as helpful as rust on my nuts.
looooooooooooooooooooooool sorry, but that's funny as hell.

How much are you estimating to spend?

boost_it7

12-12-2007, 07:12 AM

http://tomlinfox.blogspirit.com/images/medium_dr_evil_1.jpg

100 billion dollars

zenki-217

12-12-2007, 08:13 AM

For what reason exactly are you proposing that I drop my LS7 heads and intake for a package that costs $1300+ more, flows at least 20 CFM less, and forces me to use an inferior intake? You should look into it.
What the fuck are smoking?Call vengance for a custom grind cam and u wont be disappointed..

SicBastard

12-12-2007, 09:31 AM

I'm not saying that anyone would be disappointed if they went with a set up from vengence. 575 hp at the crank is pretty impressive! But I'm confident that my set up will do better. Also the trick flow heads are not as good as a ported LS7 head on a large bore block; if you care, look up the dyno graps of cars equipped with both on ls1tech.coms dyno comparison forum, then look up both of their dry flows from the published flow bench results, you'll see I'm right. And regarding the "vindicator" cam: It's traditional split is too narrow for the heavily biased intake (or you cold say relatively poor flowing exhaust) on the LS7 heads. It's overlap is also much more narrow than the cam I'm proposing, which will cost power for the sake of driveability. And finally, it's smaller, which is fine for the 364 ci that it was designed for, but on my 392 will cost power again. I appreciate peeps throwing out suggestions, but before you reccomend that I scrap all of my parts and ideas for something else, I'm just asking that you do a minimum of research, or actually come from a place of knowlege before you post....in the mean time some cool pics of the halibrands and 275mm falken 615shttp://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC01686.jpghttp://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00130necessaryupgrade.jpg

SicBastard

12-23-2007, 09:47 AM

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/medium_dr_evil_1.jpg

Hoping to keep it under the price of a nice pinky ring.

McRussellPants

01-01-2008, 05:12 AM

Oh fuck are those Halibrands?

I'm not reading your pimp ass mods list, but your defensiveness about long tubes points you bought some bogue corvette shorties or something.

shit sounds like dicks. make some long tubes.

http://www.fabricatedmotorsports.com/images/ls1s13/DSC_0492.jpg

fresh to death.

SicBastard

01-01-2008, 02:49 PM

I wasn't being defensive. I just get a little frustrated on this forum sometimes. I post up technical questions about camshaft design, and instead of replys, I get peoples' opinions on what sounds cool, and "vindicator ftw".You're right though, long tubes do sound nastier. The only reason I havn't mentioned them much before is that I was waiting to see what my final exhaust valve size was going to be, what the cam specs were going to end up at, the final bore and strokea, etc. Once that info and more is locked in there will be some serious posts on calculating header diameter, triY design, step location, blah blah. There' some serious power to be had with the right pipes!I just got my LS7 heads back from West Coast racing heads, and I've got to go pull my LS1 heads to see if the exhaust ports and header bolt location are the same. I hope they are because I'd rather use my scabby LS1 heads for the custom header mock up.And yeah those are halibrand cobra IIIs that were originally designed for ac cobra replicas. At first I was all excited to have original halibrands, but later found out that right before these models were made halibrand stopped being a US designed and made. All four wheels were slightly out of round (have sinces been fixed at Pico tire and wheel just North of LA) and the backs (17x10.5) were only made for a very short period of time and are a slightly different color than the fronts (17x9 without the deep dish for extra caliper clearance).

g6civcx

01-01-2008, 03:45 PM

SicBastard

01-01-2008, 04:38 PM

For the only guy I know of to ever have had the Halibrands on a 240 check out all these sweet pics"

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=116429&highlight=halibrand

420sx

01-01-2008, 04:50 PM

whatever tickles your pickle. i personally dont like halibrands at all. id rather get the newer model cobra wheels if u want el-cheap-o and el-wide-o

a_ahmed

01-05-2008, 10:22 AM

yay ur car is alive :D

u should make a kit out of it like i said long ago :(... my car is still winter parked heh... :)... But I really want an ls1...

SicBastard

01-12-2008, 04:13 PM

Halibrands definitely tickle my pickle!

And the progress is slow but steady.

...but it's about to come to a screaming halt for the next three months.
I have to move to Trenton NJ for a surgical clerkship, and I'm going to have to take call, overnight every fourth night. Then I'll have to move again.

Went over to my old stomping grounds TTP in Passaic NJ and media blasted my valve covers. Worked out great. Then I used a dremel with a 80 grit roll to remove the casting marks. I think I'm going to try and polish 'em.

Took these pics for another thread to show how this bad boy is mid engine:

If you look close you can see the make-shift pendulum line that goes to the center of my front wheel. The car is level. And I think it's safe to say that this is a mid-engine car!
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0112081325b.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0112081325.jpg

I've also been working hard on the seat mounts, because A: I want them low, and B: I want the seats in their final position before I weld in the harness bar.
First I removed the mini pilar that holds up the outer/rear stock seat mounting point, and then masked off everything. In order to make a template for the odd shaped floor, I bolted down my OMP seat mounts and injected some insulating foam. Cardboard templates may have been easier, but it was a fun experiment, and it worked out perfectly.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1216071649a.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1202071729.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1216071649.jpg

notice the heater sitting in the car so that the foam would cure in my F'n freezing garage!

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1216071849.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1217071515.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1217071515a.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1222071943.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1223071740.jpg

SicBastard

01-30-2008, 12:23 PM

The LS7 heads have forced me to go big bore. I knew this when I bought them, but I naively believed the GMPP catalog that said that they will work with a 4.065 bore which ment I had the option of using a $1400 brand new L92 block. According to my head builder, who I believe over the catalog, 4.100" is closer to the truth. Incase you didn't already know the stock bores are:

LS2 4.000"
LS3/L92 4.065"
LS7 4.125"

Road race engines have been succesfully built utilizing LS7 heads on .035" over L92 blocks (yields a 4.100"). But of course you're not left with much cylinder wall left, and if anything goes wrong, you can't overbore, you have to sleeve. Also, this is all presuming that you're starting with a block with almost no core-shift, good luck finding that as the L92s are notorious for having odd sleeve placement/core-shift.

So I've been looking into the other big bore options out there. Since a C5R or Warhawk block is out of my price range, that leaves me with the
1)stock LS7 $2400 new (maybe $1800 used)
2)Katech sleeved "budget LS2" something like $4000 (doesn't seem very budget to me).
3)darton MID sleeve (actually strongest on a LS1 block) but you're looking at $1000 for the machine work, another $1500 for the sleeves themselves, and then of course you need a block. So lets say you get a good deal on a used LS1 for $500, once you're done with shipping, we're talking at lest $3100
4)Iron LSX: can be had for $1800, but it will still require stress relieving and boring (it comes stock at something like 3.900" bore). Oh and did I mention that it's like 120lbs heavier than anything mentioned so far.
5) LS2 block with Darton Dry liners. What I'm leaning towards right now.
Require less machine work than the MID sleeves, and cost a bunch less for the liners themselves. Unlike the MID sleeves they do not require evans coolant and pump (a hidden $600 of the MIDs). You can get the machine work and the liners together for $1500. I can probably get a used LS2 block for south of $750, and you're looking at a total of $2250. Compared to the stock LS7: the darton dry are made of a much more ductile/stronger steel, can be bored out to 4.190 vs 4.155, and can safely support the pistons with longer stroke cranks, because the sleeve is deeper than even the LS7 (which has the deepest sleeves of the stock blocks).

picho

01-30-2008, 12:37 PM

wow sounds like fun but wen you cut the oil pan tha short wont it starve some of the bottom end mechanisms

slow40sx

01-30-2008, 12:51 PM

wow sounds like fun but wen you cut the oil pan tha short wont it starve some of the bottom end mechanisms

i was wondering the same

iRONDONkey

01-30-2008, 03:23 PM

nice work man!

SicBastard

01-30-2008, 06:41 PM

wow sounds like fun but wen you cut the oil pan tha short wont it starve some of the bottom end mechanisms

The GTO pan that I'm using is 1.25" deeper than all of the LS corvette pans, and I don't think that I will have to take out more than 1.00". So basically, I'd still be a quarter inch deeper than the C5 and C6 pans, after hacking an inch off the bottom.

If I stay wet sump, I'll be using an accusump, a full length windage tray, and as much of the stock steel baffling as I can, and maybe even a rotating pick-up. That's a lot of insurance

You guys are right, though, general concensus is that modifying a wet sump oil pan is playing with fire.

Johny5

02-22-2008, 07:33 AM

which windage tray are you gonna opt for? i've heard camaro but i'm not sure which year or chassis (if there are differences?)?

IIIXziuR

02-22-2008, 10:35 AM

Dru u rock my socks off

SicBastard

02-22-2008, 02:04 PM

Thank you...

I came to rock.

Johny5, the camaro windage tray is pretty much the only one you don't want! It only covers the back 3/4 because the front of the pan is so shallow. Both the corvette and gto pans use a completely full length tray, so either is great. With a little trimming I'm sure they're interchangeable.

Even though it's so cold I can barely touch metal, I took back my new 17 gallon, vertical craftsma air compressor last weekend and upgraded. It just couldn't power my cut-off wheel for more tan a few minutes without slowing down. I also may have a line on a good deal for a plasma cutter. Wouldn't that be nice!?

Sir

02-22-2008, 02:11 PM

craftsman doesn't have the CFM needed to power most tools for very long, especially tiny 17gal.
60gal dual stage with 25+ CFM @90psi would be best IMHO

Johny5

02-22-2008, 02:21 PM

thanks for the heads up, previously a camaro windage tray had been recommended to me so scratch that idea haha. do you have anymore progress shots you wouldn't mind sharing?

SicBastard

02-22-2008, 02:38 PM

I just got off the phone with Curtis at Ohlins USA. He said that my coil overs should be done next week. He also looked up the spring rates that currenly come with their coil overs for s14: 8F 6R. I'll update more when I have more info...

DriftinAndy

02-22-2008, 02:55 PM

:2f2f: I cant wait to see the finished product!!:aw:

SicBastard

03-03-2008, 09:47 AM

I got a little pm today re the ohlins:...What I'm wondering just how much do they charge as I was looking into buying a used set and how long is the turnaround time? Please let me know...The short answer is 4 months and $300 if its just a simple rebuild.The long answer is...I just got off the phone with Tony Martin at Ohlins. Turns out my front struts are in pretty bad shape, but still rebuildable. So they are probably going to sell me a new set for the front at a good discount (I think this may be because they didn't bother to fully disassemble them before ordering the parts 3 to 4 mo ago, and they don,t want to ask me to wait another 3 mo). The rears required less work and the rebuild for them both should come in around $75 per corner (that includes new seals and adj. knob repair). I shipped them off to NC on Nov 10th. They didn't get the parts they needed till the end of January. Shouldn't be much longer now. There are two guys that I know of who work on these there, and they are quite often traveling, doing trackside support. Hopefully in the future that will make the waitng worth it.

SicBastard

03-03-2008, 09:57 AM

ps I'm running 17x10.5 +27 wheels in the rear with falken 615 275/40/17s I just did a little roll and pull this last wekendand there is absolutely no excuse for any one claiming to be a performance enthusiast to be running anything more narrow than 275/40/17 or 285/35/18 in the rear.NO EXCUSE!!! I still could go another 10+ mm out-board easy, and I'll measue inboard clearance again when the ohlins show up.

landins13

03-03-2008, 10:05 AM

in one word....beautiful.

IIIXziuR

03-03-2008, 10:26 AM

Dru, sorry I couldn't make it down this weekend bro!
Got my car running good so hopefully within the next few weeks I can stop by and take a look at this monster

...perhaps even help with some easy stuff hahaha.
Sick build once again man!

codyace

03-03-2008, 10:37 AM

Neat build!

Only thing I hafta ask however is how closely involved with TTP you are? They were/are known to make some big power cars, but I personally know two guys to have engines built there, make excellent power, and then self combust. When tearing them apart, it was as if they put the engine together with air guns, and by hand only. Not to mention the countless suspension pieces that weren't hooked up properly, nor tight. Mising bolts on the accessory brackets, ground wires not hooked up etce tc....

On a side note, TTP does have some pretty nice cams available.

but I do know if you don't make long tube/equallengths for the LSx it sounds like total 1950 SBC dick.

with good headers and a superlight clutch/flywheel they sound cherry.

At least by ditching the conventional motor mounts you'll have more room for neat headers.

The right exhaust setup can sound great with shorties....but then again nothign will sound as good as a SBF/Mod Motor ;) hehe.

SicBastard

03-03-2008, 11:09 AM

how closely involved with TTP you are?I worked there for a few months this past summer right after I moved here from CA. They have a great rep over on LS1tech.com and were close by so I just drove over unannounced. Told'em what I could do, and I've considered everyone over there a friend, and top notch at what they do ever since. Regarding things coming back: the only stuff that came back the entire time I was there was stuff from other shops. One guy assembles all of the engines there and he is a certified aeronautic mechanic, he hand assembles everything with an assortment of retaded expensive snapon digital torque wrenches. The machine shop they use builds LeManns engines. The suspension guy there is ACE certified in all kinds of stuff and before he worked there he prepped hi dollar race porsches. And the last time I was there a few weeks ago Matt had just got done finding more than 30 hp on a bolt-ons camaro with nothing other than his laptop. The only thing I can say negative about the TTP is that you might have to wait a while for your shit to get done because they are that busy. Performance engines are generally bought by yahoos. If an engine lasted awhile, and made big power then self destructed, it was probably the yahoo and not the builder. If I'm wrong, and there was proof, I would be blown away if Matt (the owner) hadn't made good.

SicBastard

03-03-2008, 11:18 AM

I forgot to mention that the main editor of the only magazine dedicated to the LS1 (gm high-tech performance) regularly brings in his project/personal car for many of their tech articles and parts/dyno shoot outs to TTP. I've personally worked on Rick's camaro there. If anyone's endorcement carries some weight I'd think it be his.

blueshark123

03-03-2008, 11:24 AM

SicBastard

03-03-2008, 12:11 PM

ive been to ttp performance before with my boy i knew the guy who has that crazy ass caddilac i remember we used to meet up on rt.3 he was suppose to race some evo one day but he chickened out or something

I think that you're probably talking about Bruce(?) and his spare-no-expense, supercharged CTS-V. That thing defines wicked and sounds like no cadillac should!

Slicedbreadno2

03-03-2008, 06:25 PM

Very nice build.

300hp owen

03-04-2008, 08:35 AM

SicBastard

03-04-2008, 09:27 AM

you mean 17x10.5 PLUS 27 offset right? ;)

oh yeah a 285/30R18 is a great tire, common size and short!
congrats on the ohlins rebuild/replacement and the project moving along.
cant wait to see the finished product.

Doh, thanx! You're right. Correction made. Back spacing on the 17x10.5s is between 6.81" and 7" depending on who you ask (I havn't measured it myself).

Formula for calculating backspace is

Backspace = (outer rim width/2) + 0.5" + (offset/25.4)

the 0.5" approximately accounts for bead surface thickness,
and dividing by 25.4 converts mm to in

Some day when I'm a baller I'm going to go with 18s just for the extra caliper clearance up front. But right now for the same width tire you get to pay twice the price in an 18 compared to a 17. For example my falken 615s are only $166 for the 275/40/17s, but are $245 for the 295/40/18s:cry:

sac

03-04-2008, 10:19 AM

dude!! i started a ls1 swap s14 back 5 years ago.. got about where you are.. (not fully to the extent your going) and due to not having another car to drive (sold it to fund the project) i had to let it all go..
finish this thing no matter what!! you will regret it if ya dont.

SicBastard

03-04-2008, 03:21 PM

sac, I was actually really concerned about that b4 I started the project. To ensure that it wouldn't, I waited to start until I had a 2nd RELIABLE car as a DD, and also a designated place to work on it. I've also set small time-line goals for myself. B4 I left CA I wanted the engine and trans mounted. B4 I leave NJ for NY I want to have the seat mounts and radiator mounts complete. Then probably the headers, cage, and fuel system B4 next fall. Rushing I takes all of the fun out of it, and the quality will suffer. Right now when I need a break from studying, I really look forward to going out in the garage. That's probably because I don't "have to". It's also been interesting to me how much attention this thing has brought from my family. You're not very likely to get a 100 percent support from anyone. They'll tell you that you don't have the time, money, space, talent... whatever. And don,t get me wrong, I'm lucky enough to come from a family of enthsiasts! But I believe that we all set our own priorities, and believe me I've had to seriously adjust mine just to get the project this far. Something else that I did that has worked out great for me is that right from the start, I've called this thing my "hot rod", and not my "car", everyone knows you're never "done" with a hot rod! Also from the beginning when people ask me how long till it's on the road I've casually responded, "I think that it would be great if I could have it on the road in under three years." If you start missing dead lines that you've announced, you can count on loosing the minimal if any support that you've had. I do plan to finish no matter what. The time will come, the money wll come, and the skills are slowly progressing. If you're planning on doing a project similar to this I suggest you do just that and plan! & under no circumstances take this on without: a DD, a place to work, time, and money. The only exception is if you have a GREAT shop that is willing to do all the work, and a huge wad of cash t pay for the fabrication and assembly at $100/hr. I think that if everyone waited to start their projects untill all these things come together there would be a lot less heart ache out there.Sac, I feel your pain brother. Condolences on your loss.-DRU-

IIIXziuR

03-04-2008, 03:28 PM

Damn that was very eye watering an emotional but at the same time very motivational.
Keep on truckin' brotha, keep on truckin'
You will always be the coolest

SicBastard

03-04-2008, 03:39 PM

Damn that was very eye watering an emotional but at the same time very motivational.
Keep on truckin' brotha, keep on truckin'
You will always be the coolest

You know, she really is my baby. I'd be crushed if I ended up in sac's shoes. Crushed I'm telling you! Seeing as she is my baby, I think she needs a name. I always loved the Rob Zombie song, "Dragula" and thought that might be a good name. But then again I've also been dying to recover the fabric inserts on the doors with long, fake, black, gorilla fur, and then just call her, "The Gorilla". With 550 rwhp and monstrous cam lope, I think she can pull it off!? Ideas? Suggestions?

SicBastard

04-23-2008, 09:32 PM

So I finally scored one of these on ebay the other week.
They were originally spec'd out by lingenfelter when they built the spec LS1 motors for the ASA race series.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/892f_12.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/8c11_12.jpg

I think that it's the third one that I've bid on over the last three years. But this one I won! It is a single stage scavenge only pump that was built by razor. Razor is a little unique because their pumps internal gears have fewer teath and therefore (supposedly) flow more oil for a given section length. But another neat feature is that they make crazy deep section lengths. This single stage is a whopping 1.825". Trust me that's big in the world of dry sump pumps. I wrote to razor about a rebuild on the pump and about the possiblilty of adding a few stages to it to increase the crankcase vacuum.

This was their reply:

Dru,
The price to convert your single stage pump to a two stage scavenge pump is $350. The price for a three stage is $479.
This is figuring new shafts, studs, fittings, pumps bodies, and gears for the new sections.
Razor

At first I thought that I would just go nuts and add two more monster 1.825" scavenge stages. At that point I would probably be pulling close to a full 15 psi of vacuum. With that much sucking going on bad things can start to happen to wrist pins (because there isn't any oil suspended in the crankcase air), so then you have to add piston oil squirters. It just kind of snow balls. Luckily I don't have to worry about engine mounts being in the way. But I do have to worry about the lines hitting the starter If I add too many stages.

I'm going to convert my gto oil pan to be more shallow and add a pick up or two or three. Then I'm probably going to mount a big fat oil tank in the trunk. So the beautiful, all steel, moroso LS1 dry sump pan that came with my kit is for sale here on ebay. If you're going to modify an LS1 oil pan, this is the one to have. Trust me, you don't want to be welding on cast Aluminum!

http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29 (http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29)
296-2357-0?uid=85924721&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=130217297961&lk=URL

In other news I'm getting ready to move for the 4th time in 3 months come June, and I've been futzing with installing such mundane things as working locks and windows, just in case the car has to sit in storage for any length of time this summer.

That's all...

Peace and Tire Smoke.

IIIXziuR

04-23-2008, 09:45 PM

Oh man. Good to see your still wrenching around.
I miss ya big guy!

I hope you can continue working on this project even when you move.

SicBastard

04-28-2008, 06:47 AM

So I got the Razor pump mounted, just so I could check the clearance that I'd be left with if I converted it to a 3 stage. I'll clean up the motor plate/mount later on a mill. There should be zero issue with the starter clearance as I mistakenly feared before.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00063.jpg
you can see the passenger side mid-plate (sandwiched between the block and bellhousing) pretty well in these next two:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00057.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00050.jpg
I finally got around to trying to space out the 05 GTO driver side ex manifold to see if it would clear the steering knuckle/universal joint. Almost... There is a lot of grinding that could be done on the inside of the manifold though, so it still may be possible for anyone looking for a stock alternative. The passenger side will not work from the GTO because it sticks out too far laterally and hits the "frame".
Just for fun before I give them back to TTP (thanx for the loan)!
Twin Turbo anyone?
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00040.jpg

SicBastard

05-02-2008, 10:25 AM

I found these pics comparing the stock KA 5-speed to the t56 6-speed that's bolted up to the LS1 over on nico forum, as posted by "574-240sx"
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/240sx_vs_LS1_trans3.jpg
You can also see from the pics why you end up having to bash the hell out of your trans tunnel to slide the t56 back up in there.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/240sx_vs_LS1_trans4.jpg
The stock one is LONGER!!! I never thought it about, but this is why the Hinson kit comes with a steeda long reach shifter, because with their kit the shifter ends up sitting FORWARD of the stock position.
Not to toot my own horn, but now I feel even more special :)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02097.jpg

a_ahmed

05-02-2008, 12:04 PM

ooh nice, long time no see, i see your project is still rocking :) looking forward to updates :) I think next year if all goes according to plan I'll go LS :) Keep it coming bro :)

mmdb

05-04-2008, 10:28 AM

Nice work! It's pretty awesome looking at the KA and T56 transmission side to side. Also, the clutch and flywheel are HUGE on the t56.

As far as suspension, have you decided what type of suspension you'll go with? I spoke with the guys over at AST suspension who have a division in Japan who builds Aragosta suspension, and they suggested spring rates of 6kg front and rear. This is for a grip setup. I ran higher rates of 11kg/9kg front/rear and the car definitely didn't like that. Way too darty and very scary to drive at the limit. It was also very difficult to plant on corner exit. I dropped it down to 9kg/6kg and the car responded very, very well. Less darty, more grip during transitions, and on corner exit. I think dropping the front a bit, as suggested by AST, would help give the car more balance during transitions. Just thought you might be coming across the same issues.

SicBastard

05-04-2008, 12:45 PM

Yeah the t56 clutch and flywheel are huge. And they weigh over 50 lbs together :( ! But that also means that you have enough surface area to hold 700 hp with a single face clutch with some civility.

I'm going with ohlins on the car. They come with 8r/6r stock. Even though I expect my weight balance to be shifted to the rear I'm going to start with that. I do like the idea of the higher rate (like the 9s your running) to limit the travel of the strut suspension up front. Instead of starting with higher spring rates though I'm going to try the 8s with a monster anti roll bar in front and a 300zx turbo anti roll bar in the rear.

mmdb, are you going to go lower than 9 in the front? What anti roll bars are you running?

mmdb

05-05-2008, 12:11 AM

Well, I would like to keep it around 8-9kg in the front, but AST in Japan (aka Aragosta) recommended 6kg all around according to my weight distribution specs and my description of how the car felt (didn't like transitions). Although it seemed a bit soft, it should help balance the car for more cornering power.

I'm currently running a stock bar up front and no bar in the rear. I get a slight bit of understeer during mid corner to exit which is REALLY nice. The understeer could always turn to oversteer with a tap of the throttle if you needed the car to rotate a little like in an auto-x course. I'll up the rate on the front roll bar a bit more once I figure out how to get the roll bar to clear the oil pan... or maybe event cut the oil pan a little in the front to get the bar to clear.

SicBastard

05-12-2008, 08:58 PM

The ASA dry sump system forces me to go with the F body acc mounts, which I had been hoping to avoid just for the extra .750" worth of clearance to the radiator fan. Such is...

I already have the shorter (by .750") LS7 water pump sitting around. I had thought about asking wegner motorsports to make me a .50" thick water pump spacer. I only need a .50" thick spacer because the motor plate that sits between the block and water pump is already .25" thick. Instead I think I'm just going to use a pulley puller to slide the water pump pulley that .50" and then make my own spacer to bring up the belt tensioner that mounts to the waterpump out of the scrap that I have left over from the motor plate aluminum after cutting out the clearance for the dry sump pump. Then just a little spot weld to secure the pulley to the shaft and I'm good to go. I don't have to buy anything!

SicBastard

07-15-2008, 06:40 PM

I've moved to Long Island. My little apt doesn't have real garages available... so I rented one in Queens! Here's the beast getting dropped off. You'll notice the rear sitting low because the F'n Ohlins still aren't here (sent out 11/07)! After ordering just basic rebuild parts from Japan without without actually looking at my shocks (wait a few months), then actually ordering specific parts I needed (wait a few months), and now realizing that those specific parts that showed up are different then what I need I'm presuming that I'm going to be waiting a few months.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/NOREARSUS.jpg

SicBastard

08-27-2008, 01:25 PM

aNskY

08-27-2008, 07:49 PM

sick build brotha. i am impressed (and envious!)

if you havent sourced your z32 spindles yet, i have a pair chillin somewhere in my garage that are never gonna be put to good use... yours on the cheap if ya want em

az_240

08-27-2008, 07:59 PM

Called ohlins again today, the cat that used to "take care of" their parts ordering from Japan, no longer works there...

Talked to a nice guy named Christer who has taken his place. They said that they need to order entirely new shock bodies for the rear. I asked them to look into ordering them with the 300zx spindel mounts instead of the 240sx mounts for me. Maybe there will be a silver lining in all of this frustration. (the 300zx spindles are made of Aluminum instead of iron like the 240sx and save you 3.5 (7?) lbs per rear corner) Christer wasn't sure and said he'd get back to me. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

What do you plan to use for a bushing? I was gonna order some spherical bushings but they are $300 from spls site...

the stock one makes the bracket hit the upright slightly and the angle sucks.... stock bushing is pretty sloppy
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/livinglegendlll/ImportedPhotos00034.jpg

SicBastard

08-28-2008, 07:42 AM

Ansky, if ohlins responds in the affirmative, I will for sure be shooting you a pm!

Az240, from your pic it doesn't look like any bushing is going to correct the misalignment. Perhaps the top of upright could stand just a touch of die grinder massaging? I checked out your thread

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/206038-those-z32-rear-uprights-shock-mount-bushing-coilover.html

And it seems like Def is onto something. If this all works out he'll be getting a pm (and pay pal) from me as well for his sperical bushing. That looks like a lot of angle for any bushing though, sperical or not.

And if ohlins is interested in actually doing this right, I'll bring this to their attention... goes into day dream mode...

Maybe after I get these mounted they'll want me to come down to South Carolina so they can investigate how wide the bracket would have to be to clear the upright correctly. Then while I'm down there they'll be so appreciative of my bringing my car down that they'll throw it on their 7 post shaker rig, load up their road atlanta program and we'll further dial in my dampning! Oh yeah! It's gunna be GREAT!...

Re-enters reality....

Even if I have to install some (new) stock bushings in that one location just to manage that high-defelection it would probably be worth 7 lbs/corner... Die grinder :)

RUTH'LESSDET

08-28-2008, 11:25 AM

SicBastard

08-29-2008, 07:05 AM

I already rolled the rear fenders. May be even a touch too much as I think I might need a 10mm spacer in back now for the wheel to look completely flush.
I should have stopped here...
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0301081919.jpg
But I pulled it just a tad more. Even though the above looks evil the notion of a rub at 100+ miles per hour didn't sit well with me.

And this just for kicks. AceInHole is running 285s on all four corners! The fronts specifically are 285/30/R18 on 18x10 +20 motegi wheels. I seriously thought that I was pushing the boundries of stock rolled and pulled front steel fenders when I ordered my 17x9 wheels for 255 tires for the front of my car almost two years ago. When I can afford serious brakes that require 18" wheels I will be upgrading to this size tire at some distant point in the future.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/28530R18on18x10plus20Stockmetalfend.jpg

I still think that greater than 285 is possible with stock roll/pulled fenders in the rear though. Once the ohlins are in I'll measure the inside clearance to the coilover and let you all know exactly how much clearance is left.

Buriantsu

08-29-2008, 07:39 AM

Good stuff.

SicBastard

09-13-2008, 02:15 PM

I've been reading up on piston design. I've read a few debates on reverse dome vs. traditional circumferential dish. I was leaning towards a reverse dome when I cam across some writings by Larry Widmer of Endyn.

He has some interesting theories about basically building a reverse dome on the exhaust side of the piston with a regular dome on the intake side of the piston in order to mechanically induce swirl and a better/faster/more localized burn. Even more interesting than his theories are his results! His personal street car is running 13.4:1 compression on 92 octane with VERY little ignition advance (down to 10 degrees), and 300 hp out of 2L with incredibly low BSFC. He originally developed his ideas in the 70s while working on 2 valve nascar heads, though Endyn now seems to specialize parts for N/A hondas.

I've really enjoyed his articles:

The Old One - Energy Dynamics (http://www.theoldone.com/articles/)

and here are some pics of his ideas on piston design I pilfered from his web site (I hope he doesn't mind)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/softheadtrenchtoexhaustsideN2.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/softheadN4.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/softheadN3.jpg

I have a set of stock CNC LS7 heads that have been milled to a 63cc cumbustion chamber

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1229071207.jpg

What's up with the funny button of material in the chamber just above the spark plug between the intake and exhaust halves of the chamber? I hope some of the head porters stop by.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1229071208.jpg

With the cam that I am considering now with a IVC of 43.5/68.5 @ .050"/.006" lift I am going to need a dish of about 16cc to keep my DCR below 9. I think that might be a difficult piston to design. Especially for these LS7 heads which seem to have the majority of their chamber volume below the intake (which Mr. Widmer suggests I eliminate with a partial traditional dome; even at the expense of intake valve lift!).

Has anyone tried "soft head" style design on an LS or any other engine?

codyace

09-15-2008, 10:46 AM

FWIW: While I don't have any major knowledge on head design, I do know that the L92 truck heads have a similar odd bump above the spark plug area.

IIIXziuR

09-15-2008, 11:20 AM

Nice to see your still working on this thing Dru!
Whats the word man? It has been a while since we last spoke.

How long will you be on Long Island for?
Whats going on with the 14 Build?

-Jonny

SicBastard

09-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Been out here since July. School is still kicking my but, but I hope to beable to make some serious progress in November. I also scored a set of Oliver 6.125 rods for a song on ebay. I just mailed them directly to oliver to make sure that they are 100% before I put them in my beauty.

I also scored a set of sway bars off of a 300zxtt, I plan on using the rears (more than an inch thick, hollow, and with two reliefs for duel exhaust!).

Before I design my piston domes I'll be sure to talk to some guys that have had good results with their LS7/L92 head porting programs. It's going to be tough to get any real info though because almost nobody touches the chambers, and everyone seems to be running flat top pistons other than katech.

If any one cares, I can vouch for Jonny...
He's not a D-bag.

g6civcx

09-15-2008, 05:00 PM

Could you please measure your engine's mounting and compare it with mine in here? http://zilvia.net/f/engine-tech/198993-engine-placement-pix-measurements.html

I'm curious to see how high and far back your LS-series is sitting compared to my cast iron Gen O.

twistex

09-18-2008, 02:55 AM

nice work. i love it ! :)

IIIXziuR

09-18-2008, 04:41 AM

HAHA good to hear Dru!
Your project is so serious and so awesome.
I just wish you were in NJ still :(

SicBastard

09-18-2008, 06:03 AM

Thanks for the props guys!
I've been having a lot of fun getting into the nitty gritty of suspension design and engine building with this project.
As much as finishing the project is a major goal, so is learing as much as I can. Someday I'd like to take what I've learned hear and build a one-off, half ton, single seat commuter car. One thing at a time.

I've been following dent sport's build for a long time. I'd like to do a lot of the same type of events as he's doing. Like time attacks and hill climbs. I've printed out red lines rules regarding cage design and other things, as well as nasa's, and while I was at it the NHRAs (all though it seems they will allow most things if they were built to the rules of another sanctioning body).

Check out dent sport's build here
http://zilvia.net/f/chat/190780-dsg-240rs-updates-still-ways-go.html

And something else that I would love to do is buy a rally computer and go do a targa with my pops. Oh and Bonneville has always been a dream, maybe the silverstate classic, or maxton here on the east coast. My grandfather used to race a model A at the dry lakes is CA when he was younger than I am, I'd love to do that too. I just want to go have fun and have the fastest car I can build. I've got a lot of dreams!

check out targa Newfoundland here:
Targa Newfoundland - It's About the Drive (http://www.targanewfoundland.com/)

-=Peace and Tire Smoke=-

SicBastard

09-19-2008, 06:09 AM

David Vizard had a hand at MTI in the development of their LS7 head porting program. He wrote a short article about it here:
7 Liter Corvette Heads - can they be improved upon? - GoFastNews.com - All Racing News All the Time! (http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technical-articles/261-7-liter-corvette-heads-can-they-improved-upon.html)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0016.jpg
They obviously removed the little pad above the spark plug! If it works for David Vizard...

Also, after not calling me back I called Ohlins again the other day. They don't think that they are going to be able to hook me up with a 300zx style rear-bottom mount even though I need entirely new shock bodies back there! I'm about to change my avatar.

timster

09-19-2008, 06:25 AM

SicBastard

09-19-2008, 09:31 AM

Clean and tasteful project, I really like it.

I'm starting an LSxt56 swap into my s13 coupe, however a donor car is proving to be hard to come by. Damn fbody drivers need to stop trying to sell wrecked cars for only 1500 less than the car is worth not wrecked.

If you're trying to go budget and don't have to worry about stringent laws regarding registration, consider an aluminum truck motor and then bolt a t5 to it. You're smart to look for a clip though. Saves a lot of time and money. If you've got the cash though the GTOs came with a nicer version of the t56 (worse gearing for 1st gear, but better synchros, and more performance oriented 5th and 6th gear) and will be easy to register.

SicBastard

09-19-2008, 03:33 PM

Somebody Pm'd me about my radiator:

I found my radiator on ebay, although monster motorsports is a good source also. Mine was custom built for Hendricks motorsports for a nascar qualifying car, but never used. Scored it for $260 (they are about $1300 custom/new)... twice because the first one I found UPS threw over my fence and destroyed it. There's only 26-27" between the frame rail which is much more narrow than 90% of the nascar radiators. But we have more room verticly. Also beware of the built in oil to water oil coolers because they will prevent you from putting any angle/v-mount because of frame rail clearance issues. The welds on the C&R are amazing. But beware of superspeedway radiators with >15 fins/sq.in. they may be a little too dense for street use. Mine is 15. Also don't go too thick if you don't need it. 5" thick radiators get pretty heavy once they are full of water.

trsilvias13

09-19-2008, 04:51 PM

How tall is your radiator?

SicBastard

09-19-2008, 06:35 PM

The last one was 18", the one I have now I think is 19".

trsilvias13

09-19-2008, 10:32 PM

do you mind taking a pic of how the clearance and how much taller it is above the radiator support. I found a 26x16x3. I am debating between 16" tall or 19 "tall.

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 06:55 AM

Check post 58 on pg 2

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 07:13 AM

Can you take some measurements like I asked for in the last page for comparison?

Most mounts I've seen place the LS-series really high.

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 08:30 AM

Can you take some measurements like I asked for in the last page for comparison?

Most mounts I've seen place the LS-series really high.

My garage isn't at my house so it might be a while. But there's a reason for all of the kits sitting so hi. The GTO pan forces the block up, and the tunnel forces the engine/bellhousing forward. Banging is a severe understatement regarding what I did to the trans tunnel to get the engine back, and then I strapped my GTO oil pan down to the mill and took a lot of material out.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC02092.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/DSC00124.jpg

it's also subtle to see, but I cut out the ENTIRE center section of the crossmember and reinforced it underneath the steering rack.

The only kit out there that I see right now addressing the oil pan problem is Sikky.

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 08:49 AM

For those interested in N/A power, I asked Brian Nutter of Wiseco Pistons to check out my thread on my latest piston dome idea and here's his response from over on LS1tech.

The soft head concept is valid, but there are some things you need to consider. Larry Widmer is a good friend of mine and a good customer. We do the pistons for his 420+ crank horsepower naturally aspirated Honda 4 cylinders. At the same time, you've got to look at Cup and Pro stock engines today for the most advanced 2v technology. These are the people who know the most, but they aren't going to talk about it on a forum. I've seen the CFD combustion analysis they do and it's incredible. Efficiencies well beyond F1 due to them developing against a standard that remains in place for longer than a couple years. Larry certainly stands as a person that got many of these people to start Studying and Thinking about the art.

Most of the present high end N/A engines do not enhance swirl in the intake port. In general, we don't want swirl at the expense of flow and tumble designs are better. To this end, Larry has some interesting features in the Venturi area that act as a vortex generator and induces the air to stick around the short turn of the intake runner.

Where swirl can be accomplished without hurting flow is in the combustion chamber. A Pro Stock engine COULD use a smaller chamber and get a flat top to net the needed compression, but they don't. What does that tell you about mixture motion? We build up dome around the intake side without shrouding the valve (made easier by the cant of the intake valve used on those heads, and the exhaust side of the dome is smaller-but still above the deck a fair amount. I'd say this area is "funnel like" in the chamber and the dome that matches it.

For guys that are truly gluttons for punishment, we've built pistons that had a dome on the intake side and a Reverse dome on the exhaust. It was a nightmare to engineer, machine, and I hope the customer had an easier time of getting it into the engine than we did building them. The pistons were VERY heavy because of the Mass could not be removed underneath the intake side, yet the crown had to be thick enough under the reverse dome side. All in all, it's an excellent exercise, but the heads and pistons almost need to be designed around each other from the start to not shrowd the valves.

So what's a guy to do?: You'll find the easiest way to get good results is to mill the heads enough that a small reverse dome is necessary. Be careful because you CAN hurt flow and that almost always hurts more than the enhanced combustion helps. Speak to your cylinder head manufacturer as the best have flowed the heads at different chamber volumes. Back to the reverse dome- The wall created with this reverse image actually reflects the combustion back to the center of the cylinder for a split second longer resulting in a more complete burn. I have seen this in CFD and in burn patterns on pistons. As always, there are other things that can offset the gains...deep valve pockets may require lowering the top ring and creating more crevice area. Where does it stop! It doesn't!

Our three part numbers k462,k463, and k464 use something we call the Wiseco flow dome. When we went to a multifit pocket to accomodate different heads, it made it hard to hit the negative -3cc volume necessary for many applications. We designed a nifty little dome that mirrored the face of the valves on the intake and exhaust...this left a natural flame slot around the plug area. In theory, it may promote flow around the valves when the piston is around tdc. Because the intake dome is larger than the exhaust, it could promote movement toward the exhaust side, but the PERFECT combination would require a cylinderhead and dome be built in conjuction....literally minimal piston to valve clearance and the chamber sized to net the compression ratio in conjuction with the dome. We have some visuals of this if you want to email me at [email protected] ([email protected]) . Larry and I have spoken about him doing flow testing with the piston under the cylinder head in the bore fixture and the valves opened up as they would be around tdc with typical camshafts. For now though, it's unproven to help or hurt. Some day I'll retire and mess with this stuff every day. Until then, take anything I say with a grain of salthttp://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_stretch.gif

IIIXziuR

09-20-2008, 08:56 AM

Every time I come into this thread you lay down the cold hard facts, I love that Dru.
Man I really can't wait until the engine is all assembled

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 12:59 PM

But there's a reason for all of the kits sitting so hi. The GTO pan forces the block up, and the tunnel forces the engine/bellhousing forward. Banging is a severe understatement regarding what I did to the trans tunnel to get the engine back, and then I strapped my GTO oil pan down to the mill and took a lot of material out.

it's also subtle to see, but I cut out the ENTIRE center section of the crossmember and reinforced it underneath the steering rack.

That is consistent with my experience. There is no real solution without cutting either the firewall or the subframe.

I chose to cut the firewall to mount the engine as far back as possible. The oil pan is a Moroso 7qt pan with the front half chopped off the clear the subframe.

The only kit out there that I see right now addressing the oil pan problem is Sikky.

The Sikky kit also places the motor really high tho.

You guys with LS-series motors should have a shorter intake, but somehow every LS swap I've seen, yours included, puts the intake higher than my carb.

Have you considered going through the firewall and moving the firewall back 6" or so?

Nice work nonetheless.

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 01:01 PM

For those interested in N/A power, I asked Brian Nutter of Wiseco Pistons to check out my thread on my latest piston dome idea and here's his response from over on LS1tech.

Props to you for trying to make it work. I'm lazy = crate motah :-/

How much does the engine alone cost you?

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 01:50 PM

You guys with LS-series motors should have a shorter intake, but somehow every LS swap I've seen, yours included, puts the intake higher than my carb.

Have you considered going through the firewall and moving the firewall back 6" or so?

Nice work nonetheless.

The SBC has a lower deck height than an LS1. The LS1 also has much deeper skirt. And I built my pan with enough clearance for a 4.125" stroke. Most SBCs are only running a 3.5" stroke I believe. So of course they can have the bottom of the pan sitting that much closer to the block, thus allowing the entire engine to sit that much lower.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/low.jpg

Even with this relatively tall single plane on an LS1 (I'd bet you're intake isn't this tall) you'll notice that the carb base is not taller than the fuel rails.

Also the LSx style plenum under runner intakes aren't as low as you might think. Here's the Al BBK intake for the LS1

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/PPIntakeManifold6a.jpg

These 4 things together, incrementally, make the LS1 look quite a bit taller than a SBC.

And regarding the fire wall. I really did want to cut it, but that would relegate me to a different class in nasa time trials among others. I believe it also forces you to have a heavier cage in other sanctioning bodies.

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 01:58 PM

Thanks for responding.

Just out of curiosity, I will measure my plastic mock-up block and see how high the genI block really is.

I really wanted a cast iron block.

When I put new aluminium heads on, what's the weight advantage of the LS-series you would estimate to be, i.e. why did you choose LS-series over genI if the weight isn't that different?

Reason I'm asking is I'm building my backup car, and I'm contemplating running an LSx instead of a genI in that one.

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 02:03 PM

Weight was a big factor, but the incredibly easy to tune LS1 ECU, 6 bolt mains, and incredible flowing heads sealed the deal.

SBC 575
SBF 510
LS1 434

I don't want to argue these weights. These are the accesorized weights as I see 'em.

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 02:05 PM

You can also make an LS1 street legal in CA where I was living when I started the project. I don't think that there were any new passenger cars for sale after 1998 with a SBC.

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 02:09 PM

the incredibly easy to tune LS1 ECU

I have a degree in computer engineering, but I like tuning a carb. Ironic :)

6 bolt mains

werd

incredible flowing heads sealed the deal

I'm more interested in response. How does it compare to say a dual plane sbc?

SBC 575

What accessories and what heads? I saw this quote in the GMPP catalogue as well but didn't know what they dressed it with.

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 02:12 PM

You can also make an LS1 street legal in CA where I was living when I started the project. I don't think that there were any new passenger cars for sale after 1998 with a SBC.

The trucks and vans came with sbc until 2002, but in order to be federally compliant you have to use the vortec fi.

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 02:16 PM

I believe that is with iron ex manifolds for all 3, and iron heads on the SBC and SBF.

I don't really think that I have enough experience to comment on response, but there are a lot of little tricks implemented in the LS1 to reduce friction and weight which should help.

I test drove a stock c6 with an LS2 and a 6 speed last year, and was pretty blown away by how it revved.

Another cool thing about the LS ecu is that you can control the rate of electronic throttle opening relative to throttle input so that the car feels anywhere from grandma lazy to road runner on crack twitchy. Neato!

SicBastard

09-20-2008, 02:18 PM

The trucks and vans came with sbc until 2002, but in order to be federally compliant you have to use the vortec fi.

In CA your motor must come from a passenger car :(

Truck motors aren't kosher.

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 02:20 PM

The main reason I stayed with an sbc is cost and support. While I realise the support is there for the LS, the cost is much more.

Plus all the tuning shops around here do drag cars, and not many of them run LS's.

I will probably stay with the sbc for the backup car as well, just to keep things simple.

Good build nonetheless. Keep it up.

g6civcx

09-20-2008, 02:21 PM

In CA your motor must come from a passenger car :(

Truck motors aren't kosher.

Damn, you're right. I thought light duty trucks under 10 tons GVW would be kosher, but apparently not.

timster

09-22-2008, 02:37 PM

If you're trying to go budget and don't have to worry about stringent laws regarding registration, consider an aluminum truck motor and then bolt a t5 to it. You're smart to look for a clip though. Saves a lot of time and money. If you've got the cash though the GTOs came with a nicer version of the t56 (worse gearing for 1st gear, but better synchros, and more performance oriented 5th and 6th gear) and will be easy to register.

Yeah, I've been weighing the possibilities. One requirement, though, is the engine will be sitting in front of the t56 -- no auto or 5 speed.

Out of curiosity, though, which truck engines came in aluminum block? I know of the LQ series, which are all iron block and aluminum head, but I didn't know of any aluminum block truck engines.

And thanks for the heads up on the GTOs t56 -- should I get stuck with an auto donor car I'll know to buy a t56 out of a GTO when the swap rolls around.

SicBastard

11-07-2008, 08:49 AM

I couldn't take driving just the explorer anymore and just bought a '95 miata. Don't worry, though, the LS7 nissan is still the priority. I've been going back and forth with both Katech and Oliver Rods, trying to decide between lube tubes or piston squirters. I got worried about small end lubrication with my dry sump cranking at 15" of vacuum. I'll let you all know which way I go.

I take my last exam for a while next week, and started organizing my new garage yesterday so that I can actually move through it without killing myself. I also couldn't take driving just the explorer anymore and bought a '95 miata. It's equipped with pretty much the entire flyin' miata catalog including the Corky Bell designed whipple "Ubercharger U3". It's currently at 9 lbs and is a lot of fun. I called BEGi last week to ask about upping the boost and how to calculate a projected boost level based upon pulley drive ratio. I ended up speaking to Corky directly for about an hour! It was a real treat. I've read his book "Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems" cover-to-cover more than once. He was extremely helpful. He walked me through what turned out to be pretty simple math, and we talked about screw supercharges, and improvements he's thinking about/working on for my kit. It turns out that for a relatively narrow range (that I happen to be operating in), the pressure ratio (aka boost) = the pulley ratio. Flyin' miata reccomends not going over 12 psi on a stock 95 1.8L motor, but Corky said 14-15 is in the range of doable with 93 octane and an excellent tune. To that end Flyin' Miata sold me a very small supercharger pulley (67mm) that they had left over (the stoped selling the kit) at an excellent price because the didn't sell many because they don't recommend them. I also installed an LC1 wide band from innovative motorsports. I plan on polishing up the tune before I swap pulleys. The LC1 and new Link Ecu have not been fun to learn. But I shall overcome, and study, and practice until I am of EFI guru status! Once the street tune is done I'll head over to my old shop in New Jersey, TTP for some dyno sessions and precision alignment. They just moved into a bigger/nicer facility in Little Falls and are having a grand opening BBQ tomarrow, if I can pry myself away from this computer, deny the urge to go play with the link ecu, and get enough studying done tonight I might stop by.

RUTH'LESSDET

11-07-2008, 09:15 AM

SicBastard

11-07-2008, 09:27 AM

hey dru what's going on as soon as you finish up those test hit me up and come check out the ls2 I've been on the road for about 2-3 months. I love it let me tell you! I could use some of your SUPERIOR knowledge because I'm gonna get the car tuned soon

Oh stop it...
You're making me blush.
You can suck my brain dry for a ride in that thing any day. I'll give ya call in a few weeks for sure.

SicBastard

11-07-2008, 09:44 AM

I realized that not everyone know what lube tubes are, so here's my definition.

Basically Oliver only makes thick I-beam billet rods. The thickness allows them to use some fancy laser to bore two holes inside the rod lengthwise. The holes supply the small end with oil from the mains. Just like with piston squirters, more oil pressure/volume is probably a good thing.

When running a high vacuum sump pump there is no oil being splashed around lubricating the small end of the rod, and failures sometimes occur.

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/olivertubes.html (http://www.flatlanderracing.com/olivertubes.html)

SicBastard

12-10-2008, 07:43 PM

The lube tube rods showed up from oliver the other day!

And some news from Ohlins... but first I thought that I'd introduce my lastest distraction

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/1022081615a.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/IMG_2332.jpg

A whipple charged and intercooled 95 miata with 220whp! It's a lot of fun. The second pic is not from mine, just what the kit looks like on a pre '94 with out an intercooler.

Ohlins informed me that they have lost my front shocks, including the tein camber plates, and tender springs. And the custom wooden crate that I spent an entire day making and requested be reused.

Feeling trapped and without a lot of options I asked what they planned to do about it and was informed that they would ship me a new set for $1500 which is supposedly below their cost. I asked if they had the newer DFV valving available and was informed... no. Also something that I have mixed feelings on is that they are steel, not Aluminum. I realize that the retail on these things is $3200, but honestly I don't exactly feel taken care of (at $1500) after a year of being dicked around, and not even getting my parts back.

Am I being unreasonable?

What would you guys do?

IIIXziuR

12-17-2008, 08:47 AM

Jeez man, these Ohlins are still not back in your hands?
These things must be made of gold--seems like such a hassle dealing with these people back and forth. Granted, I know they must be of extreme caliber but it seems like a nuisance.
Now they lost them? WTF.

Cool Miata tho!

brndck

12-17-2008, 09:31 AM

/\/\ wow if they lost your parts i'd say that the ONLY acceptable thing is for them to replace what you had with either the same thing or something very similar that you approve of ENTIRELY AT THEIR COST with NO ADDITIONAL $ FROM YOU.

Slidin240Wayz

12-17-2008, 09:46 AM

Tell them you want a better deal.

Sell them for double.

Buy the set you want.

sillyvia13

12-17-2008, 10:42 AM

Is this love that I am feeling, is this love That I been waiting for....

Your balls are gonna rumble like a harley... SO FUCKING SICK!
how long is your wheelie bar...lmao
Shits gonna fucking flip over backwards from shear nastyness.

sillyvia13

12-17-2008, 10:46 AM

Tell them you want a better deal.

Sell them for double.

Buy the set you want.

If they lost your shit, the insurnace will cover it.
Tell em to step up there game and drop you some nice shit...
you should not be paying for something they lost.

damn.
nice mitia

SicBastard

01-11-2009, 10:14 AM

Ohlins & Cam Update:

There's a new guy at the North Carolina shop Joey, that's actually been calling me back when he says he will. He told me that he recently found my front shocks, but that the tenders, springs and camber plates weren't there (in a storage closet). He called to tell me that my new set is in from Japan finally and he'll try and find the rest of the parts. I told him I want everything back, so he's going to do his best. He's holding firm on the $1500 ($3200 is retail) stating that is below their cost. I have trouble believing that, but I'm not going to call him a liar.

So every thing should be back in my hands by February!

And I'll be putting my original Ohlins up for sale with full disclosure to what ever brave soul wants 'em for $500, when I get 'em.

I've been farting around looking at the most popular LS7 cams and comparing them to what I've been spec'n. Here's what I've gathered about the QM600 & Katech's Torquer:
QM600
Specs:113+X 23X/25X 6XX/6XX (14-24.5 overlap @ .050”)
Carlos from Vette-Air, “QM600 cam have made everyone pretty happy. With bolt-ons and tuning you are looking at 545 to 565 and with ported heads 575to 600 on pump gas!!!”
Peaks at 6500 with very little taper
600.3 RWHP / 534.2 Torque (RPM ported heads)
598 HP / 529 TQ (WCCH ported heads and bolt ons)
564RWHP / 501RWTQ bolt ons
Stock Dyno: 432 rwhp /419 rwtq
Bolt Ons & Tune: 490 / 462
QM600: 555.6 / 485.5
542rwhp and 485 ft-lbs (with only 24 peak timing)
542RWHP 482RWTQ w bolt ons 91 oct (baseline stock was 448 hp though)

Katech Torquer LS7 cam
Specs: 220/244 .615.648 110lsa (usually +4)
(12 overlap @ .050”) From 0 to 4 degrees advance: It increases torque about 6 lb-ft and sacrifices about 4hp
very drivable at 1500rpm in 6th peaks at 6500 rpm. Katech considers it a trade-off for drivability for a loss of power above 6000 rpm. Peaks at ~6400
06 Z06 makes about 500rwhp on a Mustang.
Depending on whose chassis dyno, we have seen 508-557rwhp
And exactly 600hp / 570 lb-ft of torque on an engine dyno.

In judging the aggressiveness of a cam I often look at the overlap first, and the qm600 definitely carries more overlap than the Torquer, despite the wider LSA. It's surprising to me that the qm600 doesn't seem to produce much more upstairs if any!? With both of these cams, it appears no one's made >565 whp without porting the heads on a 427cc LS7.
The cam I'm spec'n right now changes weekly, but for comparisons sake here's what I like today: 236/244 110 +4
If you use David Vizard's chart to determine LSA based on a ratio of discplacement to intake valve area, he states that the ideal LSA of an LS7 would be 108. I think that the LS7 can probably get away with a little bit wider of an LSA due to it's exceptional flow qualities, especially compared to the SBC heads that I believe David's chart was intended for.
Let's compare LSAs:
Vizard's Chart: 108
Mine:110
Katech:110
qm600:113
stock LS7: 120.5
Also from Vizard's Article:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/4isstreetstrip.jpg
Level 4 is considered the "street/strip" range of overlap given in "advertised" duration (~0.006" of lift). But once again, I think that for the LS7, these values need to be shifted a little more conservatively.
Let's compare the overlaps @ .050" lift
mine: 20 (69 @ 0.006)
qm600: 14-24.5
torquer: 12
stock LS7: -20
Per Vizard's chart (via overlap alone) my cam is so mild that it doesn't even qualify as a street strip cam! And the Torquer (and probably the qm600) is/are even more mild still. Katech has some videos on you tube of a c6 lugging along on the freeway at 52 mph in 6th gear @ ~1500 rpm. This mild overlap is probably part of the reason these cams are touted as being so "driveable".

Let's compare IVC ABDC @ .050" lift
mine:44 (68.5 @ 0.006)
qm600: ~44- ~52.5
torquer: 36-40
stock LS7: 42 (~66.5 @ 0.006)
I'm used to looking at LS1/LS2 cam numbers, and when I first sat down to spec out my own cam I thought that I had an extremely late IVC. For reference: Patrick G once said IVC no later than 46 (maybe 48?) on a 346 w/ 241 heads. I also presumed that the stock LS7 cam would never have a late IVC with its smallish 211 intake duration. But, interestingly, it's massive LSA of 120.5 pushes the IVC within 2 degrees of my cam! Even more interesting, you'll notice that Katech's cam has an IVC even earlier than the stock LS7 cam! So that's why they call it the TORQUER! Installing that cam, has the same effect upon your dynamic compression ratio, as milling the heads!
Re: future changes?
Before this is over, I may add a touch more exhaust duration, and reduce the advance. I don't know, we'll see!

SicBastard

01-11-2009, 10:23 AM

One more thing I just noticed:

Katech's torquer cam raised the LS7s DCR from 8.5 to 9.1!
And this is still on pump gas! Wow. That goes a long way towards illustrating how good the quench and heat dissapating properties of the LS7 are engineered. A lot of the engine masters challenge engines seem to run with a DCR of right about 8.5. Very few people claim to run around on pump gas on the street with a DCR >9.0:1.

PS: Sillyvia13, you make me LOL

RMJmotor

01-12-2009, 08:55 AM

Dru is my hero and old roomate, remember the time.... J/k

The build is lookign good man. I have my 1Jz by the end of the month.

SicBastard

01-12-2009, 09:03 AM

Dru is my hero and old roomate, remember the time.... J/k

The build is lookign good man. I have my 1Jz by the end of the month.

So that's the future of drifting eh? Mother F**k the RB! USDM all the way!!! 1jz FTW!!

...sorry, just trying to fit in.

Miguel, there will be no "remember the time" in a public forum... j/k

You gunna start selling parts off your website any time soon?

If you want to be COOL & IN THE KNOW, check out Miguel's Web Site:

Home (http://rmjmotorsports.com/)

RMJmotor

01-12-2009, 09:09 AM

SicBastard

01-12-2009, 09:34 AM

Working on the the website, I hope to have something completel;y functional by March.

Not the future of drifting, just building my personal fun street car. Been busy at work.

Man the stories we could tell....When you coming to the West coast again?

Is the 1jz going in the FC?! It's going to be a long while till I'm back out there. I was just out for Christmas for a week and went to the Jim Hall Kart School in Oxnard!!! What a blast. I passed everyone! Even lapped my dad. That was cool. I've got school straight through till I graduate in May, and then I think I'm taking my girl to the Florida Keys. Then I'll be a Medical Intern as of July 1st!!! and never see the light of day again.

SicBastard

01-12-2009, 09:45 AM

Sombody asked about the width of the 300zxTT rear sway bar. It's 114cm which is a good bit longer than stock, but I think it can still be made to work. I gave my stock s14 se rear bar away, anyone have the width of that from hole center to center?

RMJmotor

01-12-2009, 10:24 AM

Dru, sent you a PM

SicBastard

01-14-2009, 01:58 PM

I spoke to Joey at Ohlins USA again today. Here are the Shock dynos from my new coil overs. He told me that they put 'em up on the dyno when they first go in because they had never seen these before in person, and were wondering what they would do.

There are runs for both rebound and compression at full soft and full hard (thus the 4 lines per graph). I'm hoping to get a dyno graph at each seperate setting for each corner later, mostly to just match the dampers left to right. Ohlins assures me that they will be the same L2R, but I'll believe it when I'm holding the graphs in my own hands. I'll shoot some PMs to those that know more about reading these than me and we'll all see what we can learn.

Fronts:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/frontdyno.jpg

Rears:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/reardyno.jpg

Wiisass

01-14-2009, 10:10 PM

All I know is that those pictures are way too small. Do you have anything bigger? Or better yet, call Ohlins and see if they'll send you the CVP files.

David Steele

01-14-2009, 10:36 PM

The car is level. And I think it's safe to say that this is a mid-engine car!
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/0112081325.jpg

But you have an entire cylinder in front of the wheel center line lol.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/469169176_144fc7ea9c.jpg?v=0

Not trying to knock your setup but just for comparison since the S2k is a front midship platform.

SicBastard

01-15-2009, 09:31 AM

Tim,

What exactly are CVP files? Will I need a special program to read them? If you click on the pictures above they get a little bigger, at least enough to read the velocity and force axis numbers. Lemme know I can call Ohlins later today.

David,

I was half joking when I made that post, and I've always loved the lay out of the s2000 no doubt. Matter of fact the s2000 is set up a lot like an old 240z. But if you want to get technical, it's safe to say that my engine's cg is behind where a front axle would be, so... It's all semantics, regardless, these things rotate great when all is said and done. And even with my monster radiator I'm hoping to have <53% of the weight on the front when complete. We'll see!

That post was actually a copy of a post I made for MMDB's LS1tech thread about his LS1/240sx build

My 240sx / S14 LS1 Swap - Progress *56k beware* - LS1TECH (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/647338-my-240sx-s14-ls1-swap-progress-56k-beware.html)

MMDB post 264: "Update: It's been bout a year since I've completed this swap. The swap has proven to be very rewarding reason being I haven't had the engine fail on me and I've been able to have fun with the car almost every day going to and from work (30 miles each way) and more. What I want to bring up now is handling. GIGPUNK's post (261) illustrates the position of the motor within the chassis, which leads to a few things. First off, the t-56 being heavier allows the 240 to rotate much more. This could be good, and this could be bad.

In my case I was running 11kg / 9kg spring rates front and back respectively, which proved to be TOO stiff! This was bad. The car found itself difficult to plant the rear tires under acceleration. During corner exit as well, the car wanted to slide out.

What is good is that the car WANTS to rotate. But with such high spring rates it's difficult to put down the power and the car just wanted to slide whenever applied.

To counteract the negative affects of oversteer and prevent it I dropped the rear spring rates from 9kg to 6kg, and dropped the front from 11kg to 9kg. I also lessened the rebound dampening (my shocks do both rebound and compression) which allowed for smoother weight transfer during mid-corner to corner-exit transition. Removing the sway bar in the rear helped a lot as well (basically a sway bar increases spring rates during lateral weight transfer).

I thought this post might help whom ever is battling this issue and wants more grip. Of course there's many other ways to tune the suspension such as running a bigger sway bar up front, but for my purposes changing spring rates was more convenient for me. "

SicBastard

01-15-2009, 12:33 PM

David,

You'll also notice that Wikipedia lists my car as being FMR

Mid-engine design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design#FMR_layout)

Oh I bust me up.

kingkilburn

01-15-2009, 01:54 PM

Dude. You're on Wikipedia!

LOL

SicBastard

01-15-2009, 02:53 PM

Dude. You're on Wikipedia!

LOL

Yeah, I'm sorta a big deal.

xs240

01-16-2009, 07:48 AM

Wiki Kings we know how we roll

Wiisass

01-16-2009, 09:09 AM

Tim,

What exactly are CVP files? Will I need a special program to read them? If you click on the pictures above they get a little bigger, at least enough to read the velocity and force axis numbers. Lemme know I can call Ohlins later today.

You need the Roehrig software to see CVP files. If you can get them to send them to you and you send them to me, I can take a better look at them.

I know the pictures get a little bigger, but they're still pretty small. So bigger pictures would be better, but CVP files would be awesome.

And what spring rates are you running?

David Steele

01-16-2009, 05:25 PM

David,

You'll also notice that Wikipedia lists my car as being FMR

Mid-engine design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design#FMR_layout)

Oh I bust me up.

-_- :rofl:

SicBastard

01-16-2009, 09:07 PM

I was told that the coil overs come stock with 8/6 springs. I'm expecting a bit of oversteer, and anticipate going a little softer in the rear, but I thought that I'd give the stock rates a try before changing them. I'm also looking forward to modeling the suspension, once the car is complete, to make some more educated decisions. It blows my mind that no one's done this before (at least not that I know of). I'll call Ohlins on Monday and try and get the complete files.

David Steele

01-17-2009, 01:27 PM

No one has done what?

Suspension Kinematics?

SicBastard

01-17-2009, 06:39 PM

No one has done what?

Suspension Kinematics?

That's what I mean.

Has any one used Super Pro's polyurethane bushings before. I just saw them in the latest SCC mag and dig the reliefs that they include for holding lube.

keMz

01-17-2009, 11:49 PM

gl man, cant wait for the finished product

yes and no, cuz certain ones it with bottom out

the long ones (cuz its long) and real narrow ones (becuz unless ur coils are stiff it will bottom) it will.. the reg ones ok..

SicBastard

01-19-2009, 02:09 PM

I've got the CVP files on the Ohlins. So anyone that wants them, just pm me your email address.

SicBastard

01-20-2009, 06:55 AM

Backspace & frontspace!!!

This is a repost from one I made for the max rubber thread:

I think the reason that this topic seems so hard to nail down is that there are really two dimensions to a wheel that you need to know on a 240sx, one objective, one subjective.

The objective measurement is the distance from the hub face till you hit something on the inside (like a control arm or the strut). This is also referred to as BACKSPACE. This distance really doesn't change much, even between s13 and s14. Sure an 18" wheel may have a bit more clearance than a 16" wheel to the control arm, and 5* camber may get you in more trouble with your strut before 1.5* will. But for the most part, this number doesn't change, and is what we should be comparing!

The subjective measurement is the distance from the hub to the outside of the wheel. I've never seen this distance labeled on a wheel diagram, so I'm going to call it FRONTSPACE. This is the only thing that should be changing depending on overfenders, stretch, monster rubber/buldge, S13 vs. S14, roll, pull, etc. I find FRONTSPACE to be a matter of taste, as such it should be calculated from proper measurements and good wheel/tire size with accompaning pictures as have been provided in this thread already. Bust out the calculator people!

Once you know what the max backspace IS, and what frontspace you WANT: bust out the calculator again, and you've got your max wheel.

Almost all of these pictures and descriptions were pilfered from this thread. I'll break em up by front and back, because I'm trying to define max backspace per end with this post.

FRONT

backspace 153mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs15317x926.jpg

I think that this first picture is the most helpful. Yes the wheel is hitting the strut at exactly 153mm, but it wouldn't be with shorter springs/taller ride height/small spacer.

backspace 157mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_bs15718by1018w275infront.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=bs15718by1018w275infront.jpg)

backspace 149mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs14917x10sw275supfrontplus25w15spa.jpg

backspace 157
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs157IMG_530019by10517265onthefront.jpg

backspace 159
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs159front28530R18on18x1020Stockmet.jpg

REAR:

backspace 172mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs17217x95plus39with275srear.jpg
yall may not be impressed by this cat's "flushness", but the sucker goes deep!& those are 275s (on 17x9.5 +39), look how much room there is on the frontface still, and those fenders don't even look rolled! This echoes my earlier post that there is no excuse for an s14 to be rolling around on anything <275s in the rear.

backspace 173mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs17317x10527rearofs14wabout5mmclea.jpg
Again one of the most helpful pictures that our fellow zilvians have bestowed upon us! Basically this tells you that unless you're running skinny ass stock type dampers, or relocate your rear damper, that you will NEVER get much deeper than a 178mm backspace!

proving my backspace is universal idea here's a couple s13 pushing the limits:

backspace 173mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs17328530r18on18x9540stockfenders.jpg

backspace 174mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/bs17418x1035mmrearwith24540BFGgForc.jpg

Putting this together took a bit of work, but we now have half the equation.

MAX backspace Front~ 150-159mm
MAX backspace Rear~ 172-179mm

Devil Man

01-20-2009, 09:59 AM

interesting post about the wheels. So what is the math behind figureing out how much back spacing. like me for instance i have 17x9 +22 wheels what would be the back spacing on that?

SicBastard

01-20-2009, 10:17 AM

interesting post about the wheels. So what is the math behind figureing out how much back spacing. like me for instance i have 17x9 +22 wheels what would be the back spacing on that?

Calculate the backspace, of a zero offset wheel by multiplying your rim width in inches by 12.7mm/in

9in x 12.7 = 114.3mm

Add that number to your current offset to get your wheel's actual backspace.

114.3 + 22 = 136.3 mm

subtract your back space from the theoretical max posted above to see how much clearance you currently have on the inside. or just get under your car and measure it with a ruler/caliper. I predict you'd find these clearances if you did so. Let me know if you find different.

rear 172-136.3= 35.7mm
front 150-136.3= 13.7mm

SicBastard

01-23-2009, 01:33 PM

I went crazy and figured out the max wheel/tire that could be put under a 240sx. There have been a million posts asking, "will this wheel/tire fit?" Now you know.

MAX backspace (Same for s13 and s14)
Front~ 150-159mm
Rear~ 172-179mm

MAX Frontspace [backspace + frontspace = wheel width in mm]
S13 Front 95-105 (looks great at 99)
S13 Rear 80-95
S14 Front 109-116
S14 Rear 97-117 (110 really is perfect with a good r+p)

I also downloaded the Roehrig shock/spring dyno software and thought the displacement graphs might be helpful to some in addition to the above (post 155) velocity graphs.

front
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_frontfootballforcevsdisplacement.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=frontfootballforcevsdisplacement.jpg)

rear
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_rearfootballforcebsdisplacement.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=rearfootballforcebsdisplacement.jpg)

I think it's interesting (and probably most usefull) that the adjusters only significantly affect the low speed damping. The small change they make in high speed is one of the few faults I can see in the ohlins; at high speed the adjusters actually do the opposite of what they are supposed to, but to such a small degree (percentage) that I don't think it is significant. Anyone disagree?

SicBastard

01-28-2009, 11:01 AM

yes and no, cuz certain ones it with bottom out

the long ones (cuz its long) and real narrow ones (becuz unless ur coils are stiff it will bottom) it will.. the reg ones ok..

I'd like to share with all of you a quote from my chief of surgery, "Are you functionally retarded?"

That's all I have to say about that...

In other news, here's some new pics:

The Oliver rods came back. Oliver is a class act! Every rod came back cleaned, oiled, and with each rod individually sealed in a heavy duty clear bag. Here's a pic of the recently added lube tubes.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10033.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10033.jpg)

To the front face of the block was 14.125" behind the core support. I think that distance would be a little bit more in an s13. Also notice how rust/battery box free my engine bay is! Drilling that tray out was not fun!
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10035.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10035.jpg)

I was asked to quantify my blocks placement so here ya go. Looks like a little less than 7" from the top of the block to the seam. With a 2" cowl I'd have a whole foot of clearance!
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10048.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10048.jpg)

At the front/top edge of the block I currently have 8" to the bottom of the hood. This high mount alt actually fits! But my GTO alternator is too big for the f-body alt bracket, so custom mount to the lower, driver side motor plate is coming up. Anyone need a billet, passenger side alternator hi mount for (I was told) a vette offset?
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10072.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10072.jpg)

StanBo

02-13-2009, 07:58 PM

Fantastic work so far! :eek2:

Can't wait to read additional progress posts.

SicBastard

02-27-2009, 11:16 PM

Hey guys I'm trying to figure out the length of the spacers that I need to mount the alternator to the motorplates. I measured the above alternator mount that I randomly got on ebay and will not be using. It puts the inside of the belt exactly 4" from the front of the block. Anyone know if that is F-body or Y-body offset?

I finally paid for the ohlins today, it looks like they really did loose my rsr springs, tender springs, tein camber plates, and custom heavy duty crate. They are going to give me some new tender springs as I was planning on using them on the miata, and they knocked another $100 off the price. That won't exactly cover another set of camber plates and springs, but it's time to cut and run.

And this is bitchin: Active aerodynamics for your track day car!

http://aeromotions.com/gallery/

I also have gotten tired of running to home depot to not find the bolts that I need and am thinking of getting a monster/complete set of nuts and bolts from Fastenal

3850 Pieces Asst. Bolts Nuts and Washers M4 to M12 | Fastenal (http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=99007)

I've also been sourcing endlinks and threaded hex rod so stay tuned for some custom sway bar endlinks and home made adjustable suspension arms; part numbers to be included!

5upra

03-02-2009, 11:53 PM

I am just not sure about that active areo stuff. no other big race teams use them and they get paid to do research and development. I use fastenal at my shop...talk about nuts and bolts...I would go for it.

GSXRJJordan

03-03-2009, 01:01 AM

Haha great updates since the last time I checked this thread! Your block positioning is insane!

I would guess the active aero makes a very small difference, but when they don't even tell you the price on the web site, you KNOW it's out of 99% of autocrossers' budgets.

Interested in what you come up with for endlinks and adjustable arms :)

soreballz

03-03-2009, 01:28 AM

^According to the site, prices start at 4 grand. lol

mmdb

03-03-2009, 01:28 AM

Fronts:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/frontdyno.jpg

Yo! It's been a while since I've read this thread. I was looking at your front dyno graph and it looks kind of odd. Do these coilovers have separate rebound and compression settings? Well, what sticks out is that at zero velocity there looks to be preload on dampening (High gas pressure), or even below (maybe zero gas pressure??). Also, the rebound setting at max (i think it's max) increases exponentially at the 1 in/sec for the line in red which would make your car pack down after taking a set or bumps or turns. Full soft looks right as it's mostly linear.

A heads up on suspension. I had my suspension revavled with new springs. I supplied motion ratios, unsprung weight, corner weight, etc and what Performance Shock recommended was similar to ~7kg and ~5kg front and rear respectively. My theory for higher spring rates (the more popular 8kg/6kg f/r) is because of the suspension geometry. As the car is lowered the roll center decreases much more quickly than the CG, which actually causes more roll. So to counteract the roll a higher spring rate is used. I used a set of moonface roll center adjusters in the rear of my car and had the front arms of my car modified so I can adjust the roll center. The benefit of this modification would be to run lower spring rates, soak up the bumps, get a better ride, have less roll, and more cornering power. Just my 2 cents.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/JDM%20TyteR240%20-%2002-13-2009/IMG_0619.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/JDM%20TyteR240%20-%2002-13-2009/IMG_0620.jpg

SicBastard

03-03-2009, 10:55 AM

I am just not sure about that active areo stuff. no other big race teams use them and they get paid to do research and development.

The ONLY reason big money race teams don't use active aero is that it is outlawed in pretty much every, single sanctioned body in existence.

But if I ever hit the lottery and came up with the 4 grand it would be ideal for unlimited time attack classes and hill climbs!

The Ohlins are single adjustable, and simultaneously affect comp and rebound. MMDB you aren't kidding about how fast they increase in rebound, exponential! For the most part it looks like the adjusters only affect low speed damping. I'll probably just crank up the adjuster until the car starts to jack down over bumps (clear sign of too much rebound) and then back it down a hair.

I've Long thought that 7/5 spring rates would end up being ideal. And you're probably right about the 8/6 being so popular just to keep slammed cars off the bumpstops more than for ideal rates. And I can't stop toying with the idea of relocating the front LCA mounting location up and in to address the roll height issue. It's a much more complete solution compared to the moonface spacers.

GSXRJJordan

03-03-2009, 12:14 PM

... And I can't stop toying with the idea of relocating the front LCA mounting location up and in to address the roll height issue. It's a much more complete solution compared to the moonface spacers.

That's another way to go about it, but having roll center adjustment on the ball joint side (just 'spacing' the ball/heim joint down) is sooooo much easier. Luke (Blu808) and I are thinking of fabbing up some adjustable LCA's for S-chassis' to address this, among other things, a la Ikeya Forumula.

Stepping into this thread is like coming into AC on a hot day... its just refreshing when everyone knows WTF they're talking about :)

SicBastard

03-03-2009, 12:38 PM

Stepping into this thread is like coming into AC on a hot day... its just refreshing when everyone knows WTF they're talking about :)

Hell yeah! That's what I was always hoping this build thread would become. Thanx for contributing guys!

-=DRU=-

racepar1

03-03-2009, 01:30 PM

I've Long thought that 7/5 spring rates would end up being ideal. And you're probably right about the 8/6 being so popular just to keep slammed cars off the bumpstops more than for ideal rates. And I can't stop toying with the idea of relocating the front LCA mounting location up and in to address the roll height issue. It's a much more complete solution compared to the moonface spacers.

While a computer may say that a 7/5 set-up is ideal in a perfect world you have to realize that what we are working with is far from perfect. With a 7/5 set-up and some wide r-compounds you will certainly be all over the bump stops. I personally run a 9/6 set-up on my s-13 and the car is so insanely perfectly balanced. I use a 25mil stock front sway and no rear sway. Being that the s-14 is a bit heavier and you will certainly be running wider rubber then me you probably want to bump the springs up a couple k from where I am. The s-14 weight distribution is really similar to the s-13 weight distribution so a 3k front to rear difference should work just as good for you as it does for me. For the sway bars I think you should be running a stock s-14 27mm hollow front sway and a stock s-13 15mm rear sway. The s-13 rear bar will bolt right onto the s-14 using the s-13 bushings. You should also try disconnecting it at some point. I would start there since the s-14 rear subframe has a bit better geometry. I would also drill a couple adjustment holes in the front sway so that you can get a feel for whether or not you need to go stiffer. I feel that it is very common for people to have too much swaybar on the car. People seem to think that the swaybars are the primary tool for controlling body roll, that is not true at all. The springs are the primary tool and the sways are just a secondary adjustment.

Great work on the car! It looks awesome! I decided to sell off all my VQ stuff as it is just not what I want. I really want an ls1. I'll probably end up doing my own crossmembers like you did. The off the shelf stuff doesn't position the motor nearly as far back as yours does.

mmdb

03-03-2009, 02:31 PM

While a computer may say that a 7/5 set-up is ideal in a perfect world you have to realize that what we are working with is far from perfect. With a 7/5 set-up and some wide r-compounds you will certainly be all over the bump stops. I personally run a 9/6 set-up on my s-13 and the car is so insanely perfectly balanced. I use a 25mil stock front sway and no rear sway. Being that the s-14 is a bit heavier and you will certainly be running wider rubber then me you probably want to bump the springs up a couple k from where I am. The s-14 weight distribution is really similar to the s-13 weight distribution so a 3k front to rear difference should work just as good for you as it does for me. For the sway bars I think you should be running a stock s-14 27mm hollow front sway and a stock s-13 15mm rear sway. The s-13 rear bar will bolt right onto the s-14 using the s-13 bushings. You should also try disconnecting it at some point. I would start there since the s-14 rear subframe has a bit better geometry. I would also drill a couple adjustment holes in the front sway so that you can get a feel for whether or not you need to go stiffer. I feel that it is very common for people to have too much swaybar on the car. People seem to think that the swaybars are the primary tool for controlling body roll, that is not true at all. The springs are the primary tool and the sways are just a secondary adjustment.

Great work on the car! It looks awesome! I decided to sell off all my VQ stuff as it is just not what I want. I really want an ls1. I'll probably end up doing my own crossmembers like you did. The off the shelf stuff doesn't position the motor nearly as far back as yours does.

Keep in mind, the weights I supplied are for an s14 with an LS1. These WILL change with an sr20det, KA, etc. I initially said 7/5, but I double checked the rates and it's 6/5 in kg/mm f/r, respectively. That's a good point, spring rates take a bit of time to figure out depending on the requirements of the driver and the car, and the rates I provided aren't the ideal setup, but for some it may be ;). Similarly, your rates of 9/6 could be perfect for some, but not for all.

I have to disagree with you on drilling holes in the sway bar. At that point I think it becomes a guessing game on the number of holes to drill, the size of the holes and where to drill them. It's better to get a sway bar that's adjustable like from Progress Engineering. You can also play with the spring rates to balance the car the way you want it to. Tire size also will have an effect on balancing as well, as the tire width increases the contact patch dimensions, not the size, changes.

racepar1

03-03-2009, 02:37 PM

Keep in mind, the weights I supplied are for an s14 with an LS1. These WILL change with an sr20det, KA, etc. I initially said 7/5, but I double checked the rates and it's 6/5 in kg/mm f/r, respectively. That's a good point, spring rates take a bit of time to figure out depending on the requirements of the driver and the car, and the rates I provided aren't the ideal setup, but for some it may be ;). Similarly, your rates of 9/6 could be perfect for some, but not for all.

This is not true. The correct set-up is the correct set-up. You can try to argue driver preference, but in the end that is mostly bullshit. As your set-ups get more advanced you may want to change the springs per track though.

I have to disagree with you on drilling holes in the sway bar. At that point I think it becomes a guessing game on the number of holes to drill, the size of the holes and where to drill them. It's better to get a sway bar that's adjustable like from Progress Engineering. You can also play with the spring rates to balance the car the way you want it to.

I am saying that he should drill a couple of adjustment holes, not holes in the bar. If the car handles best at full soft then either find a softer bar or leave it alone. If the car handles better at full stiff, get a bigger bar.

mmdb

03-03-2009, 02:51 PM

This is not true. The correct set-up is the correct set-up. You can try to argue driver preference, but in the end that is mostly bullshit. As your set-ups get more advanced you may want to change the springs per track though.

Be careful with your statement. I assume you're talking about grip driving so as an example, some drivers tune their cars to provide a bit of understeer as a means to prevent themselves from getting into situations where the rear of the car might slide out at high risk corners. Some drivers will set their car up differently from track to track. A track with tighter turns would require a different setup than a car on a track with long straights. Some drivers would probably be comfortable driving a car that feels edgy, or with stiff suspension. Some would give up the feel of stiff suspension by running it a little soft to absorb bumps.

My point is that there's a lot of variables involved, and the term "ideal" mostly doesn't apply per person.

racepar1

03-03-2009, 02:59 PM

Be careful with your statement. I assume you're talking about grip driving so as an example, some drivers tune their cars to provide a bit of understeer as a means to prevent themselves from getting into situations where the rear of the car might slide out at high risk corners. Some drivers will set their car up differently from track to track. A track with tighter turns would require a different setup than a car on a track with long straights. Some drivers would probably be comfortable driving a car that feels edgy, or with stiff suspension. Some would give up the feel of stiff suspension by running it a little soft to absorb bumps.

My point is that there's a lot of variables involved, and the term "ideal" mostly doesn't apply per person.

You really want a bit of low speed oversteer tuned into the suspension and a bit of high speed understeer tuned with aero. Actually you can tune the suspension itself to be slightly oversteer biased at low speed and slightly understeer biased at high speed. Small differences in set-up may be necessary from driver to driver, but drastically different spring rates are only needed as a band-aid for a poor driver. That is why I call driver preference arguments mostly bullshit. The fast set-up is the fast set-up and only small adjustments should be needed from driver to driver. In any case this discussion has nothing to do with the thread so I will refrain from continuing it.

SicBastard

03-03-2009, 03:22 PM

It's aight. Proper spring rates have everything to do with this thread!

I am a big disbeliever in "set-up relativism" as I like to call it, aka driver preference. I think that there really is a BEST set up. The grey areas don't start to appear until you start trying to multitask. Like street/strip/drag... I wanna do it all!!! You may want to do it all, but you can only be best at one thing at a time/set up/individual track.

And rear aero will eventually play a big roll in this cars suspension. I've always been interested in aerodynamic engineering and fluid mechanics. Recently I've been reading "Race Car Aerodynamics" by Joseph Katz. Originally I picked it up because I wanted some quick answers on rear diffuser angles. When I couldn't quickly find the answers I wanted I put it on the book shelf, but his emphasis/illustrations of multi element wings, and the strong emphasis on understanding the basics of the real science behind aerodynamics as applied to cars is worth the read if you can find the patience. As it's 300 pages and there are no simple answers, as is usually the case the more you get to understand anything.

racepar1

03-03-2009, 03:41 PM

xs240

03-04-2009, 06:53 AM

murda-c

03-04-2009, 08:18 AM

Stepping into this thread is like coming into AC on a hot day... its just refreshing when everyone knows WTF they're talking about :)

Do ls1s bolt into 240s?

If not can i bolt on more cylinders to my KA?

If so can someone do a write up on exactly how to do it? thanks

SicBastard

03-04-2009, 08:37 AM

Do ls1s bolt into 240s?

If not can i bolt on more cylinders to my KA?

If so can someone do a write up on exactly how to do it? thanks

and here we were doing so good... lol

SicBastard

03-05-2009, 07:14 AM

MMDB, can we get some more info on your front LCA mods?

racepar1

03-05-2009, 07:43 AM

MMDB, can we get some more info on your front LCA mods?

Check this out:

Colemanracing.com - The best selection of racing products (http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=49_717)

The shanks are a GM taper though so you would have to re-machine the taper on the spindles. Of course you would have to modify the LCA's to make them fit as well. They sell the extra long shanks separately too so you can make your own bearing assembly. I wish SPL would sell their balljoint shanks separately, but I don't think they will.

roorr0

03-05-2009, 07:58 AM

this build is a winner..can't wait to see it in action

SicBastard

03-05-2009, 08:33 AM

GSXRJJordan

03-05-2009, 11:52 AM

Thanks racepar1. I searched on colemans site and they have ball joint shank lengths every 1/8" all the way up to .750" longer. Nice. For those just joining the conversation this would affect your suspension the same way that cutting off, lowering, and rewelding your lower control arms mounting point on the HUB. Roll spacers like meagan's just put a spacer BELOW the ball joint. Changing the visual angle of your control arm, but not acutally changing the angle of the mounting points. The spacer needs to be ABOVE the actual joint, which can be accomplished with longer studs!

Moonface is the only roll center adjuster that I've seen that actually spaces the joint - for ~$350/pr, no thanks.

I think those same "GM-style" extended ball joints are what Bill Washburn uses in the Maxi 240RS, too - I remember him saying he had to bore out his LCA or something, but they were an easy fix.

kalypso123

03-05-2009, 12:23 PM

this thread rocks me

racepar1

03-05-2009, 12:34 PM

Moonface is the only roll center adjuster that I've seen that actually spaces the joint - for ~$350/pr, no thanks.

I think those same "GM-style" extended ball joints are what Bill Washburn uses in the Maxi 240RS, too - I remember him saying he had to bore out his LCA or something, but they were an easy fix.

Bill was going to use the chevy ones and re-machine the spindle taper, but SPL decided to sell him a set of their shanks which are made for the 240. I doubt they'll sell them to the average consumer though.

SicBastard

03-05-2009, 01:24 PM

Hey racepar1 I saw you were rockin the solid SPL diff bushings. Did they add a ton of noise? What made you go that way over the nismo bushings?

racepar1

03-05-2009, 01:30 PM

Hey racepar1 I saw you were rockin the solid SPL diff bushings. Did they add a ton of noise? What made you go that way over the nismo bushings?

Well s-13's don't have diff bushings to begin with so I didn't notice a thing. I found some for cheap in the f/s section when I put in my j-30 vlsd. I wouldn't imagine there would be much of a difference though.

mmdb

03-05-2009, 03:14 PM

MMDB, can we get some more info on your front LCA mods?

I have a few people asking me bout it. It's basically a bearing that's been welded to the LCA. There'll be a bolt going through the bearing on the arm, through the spindle. In between the spindle and arm there'll be spacers added to adjust the roll center. I don't recall the type of bearing used, but it's 2 pieces which is a sleeve that gets welded to the arm, and then a bearing fits in place and held in with a retainer. Also because the spindle is tapered, they needed to be drilled out for the bolt to fit through. The other alternatives have already been mentioned, and to me this seemed to be the best option available for adjustability, ease of install, and strength. I'll post up pix when I have them installed, should be in by Saturday. I have moonface roll centers in the rear and they did make a big difference in handling. Hope it does that for the front *fingers crossed*. I'll post a review later. Good luck!

SicBastard

03-05-2009, 08:59 PM

Ohlins showed up today. Here's some pics of the parts and part numbers.
Looks pretty fancy http://www.carrozzeriajapan.co.jp/ohlins/4w/pcv.html

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10094.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10094.jpg)

Vhttp://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10077.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10077.jpg)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10081.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10081.jpg)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10090.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10090.jpg)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10086.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10086.jpg)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10091.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10091.jpg)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10097.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10097.jpg)

I can't make sense of these Germen sourced Eibach/Federn spring codes that came with the camber plates and helper springs.

I'm pretty sure the rears are 2.5"/65mm ID x 10" tall 6kg, and the fronts are 60mm ID x 8" tall 8kg.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10104.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10104.jpg)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10105.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10105.jpg)

And just when I thought my ohlins were expensive:
http://performanceshock.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=807
and
http://performanceshock.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4_43&products_id=561
no more complainig.

racepar1

03-06-2009, 10:39 AM

Well I did some research last night and the price of the bearings, bungs, sleeves, locknuts, etc..... To make our own spherical bearing equipped, roll center adjustable front and rear lower control arms came out to $545 dollars or so For BOTH the front AND the rear. I think that is amazingly cheap considering how much good aftermarket arms cost. That price is not including inner bearings for the RLCA's, I was just planning to make some delrin bushings for there. Everything can be sourced from coleman racing, including the ball joint taper reamer. I went to baker precision for the rod ends for the inner FLCA pivot points as they have better information on the rod ends. For the front I would use the full size chevy front lower balljoint assy's with extra long shanks (coleman), the balljoint sleeves for the chevy fronts (coleman), the rod end bungs for the inner flca pivot's (3/4" thread coleman or baker), locknuts (coleman), and I sourced the rod ends from baker (FK jmxt series). For the rear all I need is the chevy lowers with the long shanks and their corresponding sleeves. Of course there would be additional material cost to brace the arms and I would need to machine a few spacers, but all in all it is really pretty simple to do.

SicBastard

03-06-2009, 11:09 AM

GSXRJJordan

03-06-2009, 02:07 PM

McRussellPants

03-06-2009, 02:34 PM

Racepar - that's kinda what Luke and I were thinking too, except I don't use FK or Aurora ends, I use cheaper stuff (with the same stats).

Dru - damn, I want some Driftwerks LCAs!!!! $600 isn't bad AT ALL.

I've delt with Driftwerks and met them in Cali.

Super cool dudes, even from overseas the handbrake i got only took like a week.

racepar1

03-06-2009, 02:39 PM

The same thing happened when I priced out aurora bearings for my sway bar end links. Not even using the high-mis-alignment stuff the price came to about $37 per corner.

AW6 3/8_24 female steel rod end $15 x2
Steel jack screw at midwest control products $1.62
Aluminum spacers and grade 8 bolts $5

It turns out mazdaspeed sell the same thing for $39.

I ended up just ordering the mazdaspeed ones from goodwin racing to save myself the time of sourcing the spacers, nuts and bolts. I also ordered some extra boot protectors from seals-it that I'm going to fill with some synthetic brake caliper grease just for corrosion protection.
Seals-It (http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp)

Even though the US economy has seen better days, it seams that most the rest of the world is doing a little bit worse. We are doing pretty damn well against both the yen and pound, which makes these a pretty damn good deal:
Driftworks Lower Arm Front And Rear S13 S14 S15 R32 R33 R34 (http://www.driftworks.com/catalog/products/driftworks-lower-arm-front-and-rear-s13-s14-s15-r32-r33-r34.html)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/all4lowerCA430UKlbs.jpg
With current exchange rates these come out to about $615 before shipping for all four corners! I'm pretty sure these are what Bill from DSG is running in the front, and these guys have an excellent reputation in Europe. Plus, then you don't have to actually do any work, or make any delrin bearings.

Those look like tcsportline to me, re-sold taiwan crap. I wouldn't run those without replacing the bearings, which isn't cheap. You can get the tcsportline branded ones for cheap off e-bay as well. The only LCA's out there, that I know of, that are good to go right out of the box are the ikeya formula ones, which run like $1000 just for the fronts. Even the SPL's aren't that great as they have not updated their design at all, they're re-sold taiwan stuff too. I was originally thinking about buying a set of cheap LCA's and replacing the bearings, but with the custom parts so cheap I don't see a reason to. All I have to do is weld a few bungs and braces in and machine a few spacers. That'll only take a couple days and in the end I will have something that I will be satisfied with.

SicBastard

03-11-2009, 01:01 AM

I got the mazdaspeed ball-end, sway-bar, endlinks and am a little dissapointed. Originally I priced out low offset aurora ptfe lined female ball ends with male jackscrews that came out to about $35 bucks. But I didn't want to bother figuring out what size spacers I would need, and tracking down the hardware. I've never read a bad review of the mazdaspeed miata endlinks and at $39/corner thought they were a good deal.
These are some cheap ass endlinks
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10122.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10122.jpg)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10119.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10119.jpg)
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10117.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10117.jpg)
Both the front and rear parts use the same spacers, ball-ends, jam nuts, and bolts. But the rears use a slightly shorter steel turnbuckle vs the fronts loosely threaded aluminum hexlink. Both for the fit and finish and for the couple extra mm shorter adjustment range I'd order 4 rears and use them on the front too.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10124.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/th_SDC10125.jpg (http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/?action=view&current=SDC10125.jpg)
The ball-ends are really loose, unlike quality ptfe lined ball-ends, and there is probably a thousandsth or so of play in them.
I used Seal-it rubber boots to protect them and filled 'em with a little synthetic brake grease. The Seal-it boots are a quality product. But seem a bit pricey at $5 apiece. It's a bit of a puzzle to get them on the first time, but the rubber is super tuff stuff. Just grab some plyers and go to work. I'm just going to keep my fingers crossed, and hope that they last a while. Hopefully the boots will buy me some time.

5upra

03-11-2009, 01:57 AM

The ONLY reason big money race teams don't use active aero is that it is outlawed in pretty much every, single sanctioned body in existence.

But if I ever hit the lottery and came up with the 4 grand it would be ideal for unlimited time attack classes and hill climbs!

I do know they are outlawed in the NORMAL "racing"...but even with the hillclimbers especially I know of none.

GSXRJJordan

03-11-2009, 02:02 AM

Play in the bearings is not good - the heims I get (in M16x2.00 size) have a sheer force of 17.7k lbs, chrome ball, chrome plated shank, 16* misalignment and teflon race for much cheaper than Aurora... less than half. With shipping, the Seals-it boots I got were like $7/ea lol, they're very expensive, but packed with grease I think they offer OEM-like reliability.

SicBastard

03-11-2009, 10:14 AM

5uprqa, it looks like you might be right. Most of the hill climbs in North America just use SCCA rules. Which, like you said, probably outlaw active aero:naw:

Play in the bearings is not good - the heims I get (in M16x2.00 size) have a sheer force of 17.7k lbs, chrome ball, chrome plated shank, 16* misalignment and teflon race for much cheaper than Aurora... less than half. With shipping, the Seals-it boots I got were like $7/ea lol, they're very expensive, but packed with grease I think they offer OEM-like reliability.

Yeah I wouldn't reccomend these mazdaspeed endlinks... I had high hopes with them coming from an OEM and all. I want to get my car back on the road, so instead of mailing them back I'm going to mount 'em today and hope I get at least 6 months out of them before the clanking starts.

What ball-ends do you use, FK?

SicBastard

03-12-2009, 11:38 AM

I wish I had known about these two weeks ago. They claim to use "High quality, American made, Teflon lined rod ends." Live and learn. @ $135 less than I could make them for.
Advanced Autosports Suspension and Steering (http://advanced-autosports.com/PROD03_suspension_steering.htm)

SicBastard

03-14-2009, 07:36 PM

from post 170
MAX backspace Front~ 150-159mm
MAX backspace Rear~ 172-179mm

When I made these determinations
I was taking advertized wheel widths, deviding by 2, and adding the advertized offset to calculate backspace. As cnichols recently pointed out to me, that only gets you the backspace to the inside of the inner lip! True backspace is to the outside of the wheel, not the inside of the lip that holds the tire.

This picture should help explain:
This is a pic of my rear wheels 17x10.5 +27.
Using my previous calculations would yield a back space of
(10.5x25.4)/2 + 27 = 160.35 mm
which is 13.65mm off from the actual measured backspace of 174mm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10128.jpg

So how well does a 174mm backspace 17" wheel fit the rear of an s14?
My new Ohlins shock body is 49.7mm in diameter and sits exactly 13mm from the above wheel.

And 22.8mm from the front edge of the lower control arm
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10161.jpg

and no clearance issues to the rear
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10162.jpg

With the coilovers up high no problem
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10146.jpg

With them low... uh...
sill clears, but...
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10149.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10151.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10153.jpg

So if you're about to order a new set of custom CCW wheels what backspace to you ask for? Less than 174+13= 187 (7.362")

Max Frontspace with stock fenders: (calculated using my old method)
S13 Front 95-105 (thatguy looks great at 99)
S13 Rear 80-95
S14 Front 109-116
S14 Rear 97-117 (107 really is perfect with a good r+p)

So far I've only done the roll and pull on my drivers side rear fender.
I took this measurement directly below the back edge of the rear window.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10131.jpg
Looks like my R+P gave me an extra 38mm over stock. Presuming both sides have the same depth of well. And It damn near looks stock too!
Stock Passenger Side
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10137-1.jpg

My current front space, from hub face to outer tire edge is
(25.4x10.5)/2 - 27 = 106.35mm

I probably could use a 10mm spacer and still be fine with my fender clearance, but I doubt that I could pull the fender much more without it looking weird.

So lets call it a max frontspace of 115mm and a max backspace (only to the outertire edge) of 170mm would yield a wheel 285mm (11.22"). If you go any bigger you're going to have to do something drastic to your fenders. Also, to pull this off, your coils will probably have to sit higher than the tire.

I would really like to own the redline time-attack street class some day. The current rules only allow tires upto 285s, and forbid inboard/cantilevered dampers. I think that a 11.22" wheel would be perfect for 285/30/18 tires. Personally I'd order up four of them all with the same <7.362" backspace and just use whatever spacer and fenders are necessary in the front.

I've also been hunting for an inexpensive cast wheel that that would come as close as possible to this. I was looking at the rpf1, but it only comes in +15 (wasting a lot of space). The knock off ford wheels come in 18x10 +27 but I've heard that they weigh 31lbs! The closest thing that I've found so far are the 18x10.5 +30 Enkei nto3+m; they weigh less than 22lbs and cost around $350 a piece.

SicBastard

03-14-2009, 07:49 PM

Looks like a toyo 888 would fit that 11.22" wheel just right
315/30ZR18 reccomended wheel widths 10.5-11.0-11.5

and for the nto3+m 10.5" wheel
285/30ZR18 reccomended wheel widths 9.5-10.0-10.5

SicBastard

03-19-2009, 05:50 PM

YouTube - Truth in 24 - 60 Second Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw6-dvtsa2g)

http://www.gpny.com/launch08/index.php

Hey guys,

This bad ass movie is on ESPN tomarrow from 8-10pm.
It is also being aired at GPNY on their big screen.
Admission is FREE.
It's located a little north of Yonkers.
You need to be there by 7:30 to get a seat.
They have a really nice bar and restaurant, oh and go-karts!
I'm taking the supercharged miata up there, their parking lot is always like a freaking car show. If anyone wants to meet up that's where I'll be.

GSXRJJordan

03-19-2009, 06:13 PM

you're in trouble

The passenger side fender of S14's sits about 10mm closer to the wheel. I have absolutely no idea why, but I've noticed it on every single S-chassis car I've done wheel fitment work on - one side ALWAYS fits "more sunk" than the other.

When I did my overfenders in the back (using 18x12 +0 Works), I noticed that I still needed to flare my overfenders out more than the stock 40mm - not a big deal on the driver's side, the overall flare ended up about 55mm.

When I went to do the passenger side (alignment was exactly the same/untouched @ 1* camber), to get the fender over the 285/30 tire, I had to flare it even more - ended up about 65mm.

Good luck with that pull on the passenger side :/ I love the fact that you're doing all the measurements though, I thought I was the only one :)

SicBastard

03-19-2009, 06:30 PM

Maximamike

03-19-2009, 06:31 PM

YouTube - Truth in 24 - 60 Second Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw6-dvtsa2g)

http://www.gpny.com/launch08/index.php

Does Yury ever drive his S14 up there? I wondering if they're hiring..

racepar1

03-19-2009, 06:36 PM

SicBastard

03-19-2009, 06:41 PM

Presuming both sides have the same depth of well.

You know what they say about when you presume...

GSXRJJordan

03-19-2009, 08:37 PM

That's ASSume... lol.

The S13 was backwards from teh S14, for me at least - driver's side was "more sunk" on the S14, driver's side was "more flush" on the S13. Since all the arms are the same length, it has to be something with the frame/subframe. I didn't mention it when I first spotted it, years ago, because I thought my car must have been crashed or something, but it seems to be that everyone's car is like that.

mmdb

03-24-2009, 03:50 PM

SicBastard

03-25-2009, 12:53 PM

Yo Sic. Just going back to the roll center adjusters. I installed a set of GP sports hyper knuckles which added 40mm of adjustment to the front. Makes a night and day difference in handling once the front arms are parallel. I did add moonface roll center adjuster for the rear as well, so overall balance feels much better. Check out nissanroadracing ->suspension and there's a thread concerning roll center. I have some pix in there. It's definitely worth the fix, whichever way you go to correct it.

MMDB, ballin as ever! GP sports hyper knuckles are a definite/proper fix for sure! They look like the real deal. The fact that all these great parts are still being developed for the s-chassis make me glad that I choose it for my build. I would be concerned about the new, faster steering for a road race car though, I'm sure it makes modulating steering inputs more difficult at 10/10ths. I'm also sure it's tits for a drift car where crazy weight transfer is the name of the game. Do you disagree? I noticed that Bill at DSG is taking the steering quickener OUT of his 240maxi. As a rule, I'm going to try and copy as many of his ideas as I can, until I get on track and start making my own informed tweaks.

SicBastard

03-27-2009, 12:38 PM

I've really been interested in aerodynamics since I was a kid, and have toyed with the idea of having my own aluminum extruded wings made off of existing naca/nasa/sae airfoils. But recently Emelio at 949 racing mentioned in his blog that he had gotten some substantial downforce by combining 3 apr extruded wings into a single compound wing. It turns out APR will even make custom lengths for you! APR has a resaler local to me, Fizz Autosports (http://www.fizzautosports.com/), so I called them to ask if they would let me trace the profiles of any of their apr wings so I could do my own cfd analisys. They were afraid to let me remove the allen bolts holding on the end plates, but gave me apr performance's direct phone number. The help line then gave me their r&d e-mail, saying that they had their own cfd for their 3D carbon wings, but not for their 2D alluminum wings. Here's the e-mail I just sent to their R&D.

I'm building a car for redline time attack and hill climbs. The slower speeds of the hillclimbs, neccesitates a higher Cl than current wing offerings can provide. Current rules limit the dimensions of my wing to a chord of 14" and length of 68", and do not exclude compound wings. An acquantence of mine, Emilio at 949racing, said that he had been able to get some substantial downforce by piecing together 3 of your extruded wings into a compound airfoil. I was wondering if you had and CFD information available on your different, individual aluminum wing profiles, or if you had used any known naca/nasa wing profiles in building your aluminum wings? If so which profiles did you use and at what chord length? If you didn't use known airfoils, will you please forward me some pictures or illustrations of the profiles that you have available including the name you use for ordering, and their chord lengths?

It'll be interesting to see what I get back.

5upra

04-03-2009, 01:03 AM

kingkilburn

04-03-2009, 01:28 AM

The LS can be made to rev just as high as an SR.

SicBastard

04-03-2009, 11:56 AM

Maybe I missed it but are you building for attack/climb? If so why the GM power? I can see it for redline since those are mainly factory cars, but the ls7 is a big slow motor that has torque on its side. Why not use somehting with more revs/quicker?

Its not an old school BBC LS7. Have you ever run through the gears of a new corvette? I have. And even with 3.42 gears and a 52 lbs clutch/flywheel the stock LS2 will be bouncing off the revlimiter faster than you can remember to shift

GSXRJJordan

04-03-2009, 01:41 PM

Its not an old school BBC LS7. Have you ever run through the gears of a new corvette? I have. And even with 3.42 gears and a 52 lbs clutch/flywheel the stock LS2 will be bouncing off the revlimiter faster than you can remember to shift

I absolutely concur. Driving my Dad's C5 Z06, the LS-series motors rev insanely fast, and are actually kinda peaky in my opinion - with both car's in 5th on the freeway, my SR takes off just as fast as his supercharged LS6 until we both hit about 4000rpm.

Another way of putting it, in the pop's supercharged LS6, he picks up 200ft-lbs of torque from 4000 to 6000 rpm. With a redline at 6800rpm, that's a peaky motor, especially when compared to a RB or SR, which has much more torque in the middle than at the top.

5upra

04-07-2009, 07:26 PM

GSXRJJordan

04-07-2009, 07:33 PM

please excuse the sentence,but screw the SR/RB. I am talking like a BMW V8. It is true and thanks for pointing that out kingkilburn that anything can be made to rev as high as an SR. I believe but don't quote me that the C6R only runs upto 8200. Since I am planning a build for a LS series I know the ls6 hyd lifters are good to 8000. Plus I have heard some interesting stories about LS7's blowing at the track in cars straight from the factory.

And this, folks is why comparing motors used in competition to "built" street motors is not always apples to apples.

The C6R is a Le Mans car - being so, it's subject to horsepower restriction. As such, they actually limit the red line substantially, to maximize torque "under the curve", but still slide in under the 600hp limit (I believe that's still what it is) that GT1 imposes. If I recall, the actual C6R's redline is below 6500rpm.

That's not to say that it can't rev higher - pushrods and lifters are definitely good to 8000, but the question is why?

And LS7's have been reported to have oil starvation issues, causing "engines to blow up straight from the factory" - they've had a couple tech bulletins, and I know the C6 Z06 guys are no longer screaming bloody murder like they were when the first couple engines blew (and GM didn't want to warranty them), so I assume it's been addressed.

5upra

04-07-2009, 09:36 PM

I should have specified that I was referring to a GMPP C6R motor not a LeMans car.
That's not to say that it can't rev higher - pushrods and lifters are definitely good to 8000, but the question is why?
this is a thought behind my question of why ls7

GSXRJJordan

04-07-2009, 10:50 PM

I should have specified that I was referring to a GMPP C6R motor not a LeMans car.

this is a thought behind my question of why ls7

There's no way I'd pay the premium that GM (or junkyards) want for an LS7 per se, but that's not to say that I wouldn't want a small-block 427! When you think about Chevy motors, remember that it has the biggest aftermarket of any motor series, and that there is ALWAYS someone building a motor for specifically what you want.

5upra

04-08-2009, 01:26 AM

There's no way I'd pay the premium that GM (or junkyards) want for an LS7 per se, but that's not to say that I wouldn't want a small-block 427! When you think about Chevy motors, remember that it has the biggest aftermarket of any motor series, and that there is ALWAYS someone building a motor for specifically what you want.
It doesn't mean its your best option

SicBastard

04-08-2009, 09:33 AM

It doesn't mean its your best option

I started this build before the LS3 was available. Right now I truely believe that a 415 LS3 build is probably the best $/performance going right now. But an LS3 based motor will always come up short compared to an LS7, I don't care how much porting you throw at it.

That being said, if you look at the flow of the LS7 head compared to anything short of $4000 BBC race heads you'll understand. The only reason that I'm saying the stroked LS3 might be a better deal is that the LS7 requires a big bore block, that runs about $2500. Though I've seen them go used under $1800.

I'm building the engine myself, and won't be paying "premium" for anything. Considering the great deal that I got on the LS7 heads (less than a grand), and presuming I can get a block under 2k, this still is "the best option". 670 crank hp n/a that will last 25k miles is no joke.

SicBastard

04-18-2009, 08:22 AM

Builds been on a slight hold while I'm preparing for a liscensing exam. But yesterday I went with my girl to this really nice seafood restaurant here in Long Island. It's finally crested 69 degrees here in the NE, and we took the miata with it's supercharger and Link fuel management computer. The valets were standing there but I just parked my self anyway. And as we were walking into the restaurant they were kinda pushy about getting my keys. So I finally just handed the Dick my keys not wanting to make a scene, for my girls sake. The aftermarket ECU surges a bit, doesn't like light throttle, and requires ~30 seconds of waiting in the accesory position to turn on, prime the fuel pump, and sync the cam and crank angle sensors, before it will let you ignite the engine.

We had a great dinner and when we came out instead of getting bent out of shape, I just handed the Dick my valet stub, then whispered to my girl, "Watch this, this is going to be funny." Of course the Dick couldn't get it started, my little miata is parked between some $100k Mercedes and Jaguar turning over and over. We both laughed as the Dick came back with his head held low and handed me back my keys without looking me in the eyes. Then we hopped in the car, and because I waited the requisit time before turning it over, it started instantly. All the valets were watching as it started right up, and with a little creative clutching pulled out as though it was dead stock. As I drove past the Dick I said, "There was a reason I didn't want to give you my keys." My girl thought that was a good show.

IIIXziuR

04-18-2009, 09:03 AM

Dru did anyone ever tell you that you are a Sic Bastard?

Good story though, I too hope to someday embarrass valet parking attendants.

SicBastard

04-18-2009, 09:28 AM

Dru did anyone ever tell you that you are a Sic Bastard?

Not nearly often enough...

I'd say lets go to the NY autoshow again this year. But, it's going to be nothing but weak-sauce, eco-friendly, garbage, with a few exotics that you can't get within 10 feet of, sprinkled in.

SicBastard

04-24-2009, 03:00 PM

Well I'm mad cash strapped until I get a job after I graduate in June, so I put some parts up for sale on e bay. The Ohlins are up for sale if you think you're crafty and can get them back together with a reserve of $100. I'm probably also going to list my black billet hi mount alternator bracket, and c5 throttle peddle with TAC.

eBay Motors: Ohlins Nissan 240sx coilovers S14 JDM silvia springs (item 130302376520 end time May-01-09 13:54:26 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130302376520)

I also rolled out to the weekly car gathering in the parking lot of Best Buy in Woodbury last night. I couldn't believe how many guys rolled out there. Good time, smelled like gas and burn outs.

GSXRJJordan

04-24-2009, 05:22 PM

I would totally pick those up, but alas, I'm "invested" in a couple other things right now.

I always look forward to your updates Dru, keep it up!

SicBastard

05-19-2009, 08:59 PM

So I'm starting at the back.

So I left my stock s14 fuel tank back in CA when I moved to the East Coast. It's actually a pretty good design and if it was still here I'd probably use it. Most of the stock tanks volume sits above the diff between the rear shock towers, then has two legs that go forward and below the rear seats on either side of the drive shaft.

My idea is to try and get the weight of the tank a bit lower and further back. I also want to build my own rear diffuser. So originally I was thinking of cutting out the bottom of the trunk, and making a custom aluminum tank whose bottom doubled as the majority of the diffuser.

My dad was pointing out that aluminum tanks should probably be rubber mounted to reduce the likelyhood of fatigue cracks which Aluminum is susceptible to. Anyone have any experience with aluminum gas tanks?

So what does a fuel tank have to do with the exhaust? Well with the sides of the drive shaft space open there is extra room for my expansion chamber and cats.

From Random Technologies Website: "...a 3" diameter 7000 series SuperStainless catalytic converter flows 617 cfm. Most 3" diameter high performance mufflers flow less than 475 cfm at the same test pressure."

I also found these test results where 2.5" aftermarket cats were tested and compared to stock LS1 f-body cats.

Table 1
CFM @ 20.4” H2O
CFM @ 28” H2O

Passenger Side Catalytic Converter
299.5
350.9

Driver's Side Catalytic Converter
268.3
314.4

TTS Bullet Catalytic Converter
277.1
324.6

Carsound Catalytic Converter
372.7
436.7

FLP Catalytic Converter
376.0
440.5

First a word on CFM flow rates. Heads are usually flowed at 28” H2O, while carburetors are usually rated at 20.4” H2O, and my hero David Vizard rates exhaust flow CFM at 20.4” H2O. By the looks of things Random Technologies rates their cats at 28” H2O.

But why care about cats on a 700hp v8? Redline time attack street class rules, that's why. Oh and they are way more restrictive than you might think.

David Vizard’s research shows that 2.2 cfm of flow at 20.4” of H2O will support 1 horsepower. 2.2 cfm is the optimum flow through the exhaust keeps horsepower losses under one percent.1 Removing the stock catalytic converters on the LS1 usually results in a gain of 8 rear wheel horsepower.

FLP or Carsound = 373cfm

373/2.2= 170 hp per cat (w/ 2.5” i/o)

Random Technology 3" diameter 7000 = 617 cfm (probably 524 cfm @ 20.5" H20)
524/2.2= 238 hp per cat

Now it should be a little more clear.

If you're rolling a single cat, you have a restriction if you're making over 170-240hp, regardless of which fancy pants stainless "race" cat you're running! Bogus!

This also means that if I'm running FLP aftermarket race cats that I would need 4 (3 if I ran the randoms) of them in parallel to build a truely free flowing exhaust! I've never seen anyone run cats in parallel. The reason for this is either cost, space, or you can't get enough heat into them. I dunno.

To make sure that street class participants aren't running gutted cats, redline states that they will use infraread thermometers to make sure that your cats are lighting off.

more from random technologies web site: "...Under normal operating conditions, the catalytic process doesn’t begin until temperatures inside a converter reach 500 to 600 degrees (F). If air/fuel ratio is on target, and the exhaust is free of contaminants, internal converter temperature stays at about 1200 degrees. But when unburned fuel enters the picture, temperatures can reach 2200 degrees and either burn the precious metals out of the washcoat, or literally cause a melt down of the bricks."

So now the real question is: will three or four parallel cats get up to temperature if they are sitting five feet from the heads with an expansion chamber between them? By definition anything richer than 14.7 will have "unburned fuel". And considering my car will be running richer than 13:1 most of the time, maybe the extra exhaust temps will actually be useful? Redline doesn't say when them test your cats temps. I'm pretty sure I'd be ok after a hot run.

This is getting too long, but here are some pics of preliminary measurements for the rear diffuser/new fuel tank area, and I'll talk about expansion chamber design another day.

This is a pic of a one inch piece of steel stuck to the bottom of the subframe. The piece of steel creates two rectangular spaces about 3"x5" on either side of the diff. Should be enough for four 2.5" exhaust pipes.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10412.jpg

would four 2.5" exhaust pipes flow enough for 700hp?

Check this out:

A section of straight pipe the length of a typical muffler, rated at the same test pressure as a carb (1.5” of mercury= 20.4” H2O), flows about 115 cfm per square inch.

open horsepower
pipe supported w/
size single pipe

2.0” D = 3.1 A X 155/2.2 = 218 HP (x4=872 HP, probably a better idea)
2.5” D = 4.9 A X 155/2.2 = 345 HP (x4=1380 HP, yeah should be ok)
3.0” D = 7.1 A X 155/2.2 = 500 HP
3.5” D = 9.6 A X 155/2.2 = 676 HP
4.0” D = 12.6 A X 155/2.2 = 887 HP

Proof Hondas with 4" mufflers are built by assholes.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10414.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10416.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i70/SicBastard/SDC10405.jpg

It seems that diffusers can sit anywhere from 4-14 degrees. Less than 7 degrees to prevent flow seperation/drag unless of course you have a massive wing within a verticle foot for interaction like F1.

SicBastard

05-20-2009, 02:42 PM

So I just took a look at the revised 2009 Redline time attack rule book and it looks like full undertrays are now allowed in street class. The wording on the fuel cell rules is a little strange:

"1.6.4 Fuel Cells permitted (modification of factory floor pan is allowed for installation of
Fuel Cell)
1.6.4.1 Good quality fuel cells contain a bladder constructed of Nylon or Dacron
woven fabric impregnated and coated with a fuel resistant elastomer and
are FIA FT-3 (or higher) rated.
1.6.4.2 The cell should be in a container made of at least 0.036-inch steel, 0.059-inch
aluminum, or 0.125-inch Marlex, fully surrounding the bladder.
1.6.4.3 Foam internal baffling is required, as per FIA FT3-1999 (or higher)."

So it says that fuel cells are permitted, then it goes on to define a good one as one with a bladder. It doesn't seem to expressly require a bladder within the cell though. The rules also seem to say that there "should" be a container for the bladder. Does should = required? Or am I just seeing what I want?

Bladders are around a $1000. I was hoping to get the car on the road without one, with just a custom aluminum fuel tank, then add a custom bladder to it way down the line.

How do you guys interpret the above?

GSXRJJordan

05-20-2009, 08:37 PM

^^^ Dru!! Great discussion on the exhaust flow.

Funny, I was literally just talking with Mike @ Kognition last night about building a undertray and diffuser for my S14, now that I've got RB25 power and R-compound tires - what we came up with was 3/16" balsa bonded to Luan veneer (for price reasons) - I can get 36" x 6" balsa sheets for about $5 @ McMaster Carr, so I'll just buy $100-worth or so, and do the undertray and the diffuser out of that...

For the diffuser, I still haven't figured a total width, because it'll be wider on the exit than the entrance (divergent nozzle) and slope it at 10* (since I have a Kognition wing setup that's bound to disturb the air)... if I were to make it about 2' long, that's only 4 1/8" tall at the exit, so totally doable without chopping out too much of the trunk! I'll run the final height about the same as the front, 3" off the ground, so it'll still be drivable.

Did you happen to measure the distance from the bottom of the diff cover to the rear of the bumper support?

About the fuel cell, don't worry about the bladder - it's cost prohibitive. An aluminum fuel cell from Summit or whatever is legal, and yeah it should be rubber-mounted into a frame that you make for it in the trunk. I've seen people run exhaust bushings like this: http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/1-16-Exceed-RC/0/000/006/403/402/640340249.jpg as their mounts, whatever, just so it's not hard-mounted. Then you leave a little flex in your SS fuel lines (no hard lines from the cell to the pump) and you're golden!

I've said it before, but I love the fact that this thread is chock-full of intelligent discussion :)

SicBastard

06-01-2009, 01:41 PM

Went out to the East coast drift bash at Englishtown, in NJ yesterday. Miro's LS1 powered, pink s13 sounded bitchin with the side pipes. You could tell he was running from the pit entrance, it was so unique. Met up with some friends and we caravan'd it back to NY. One of the guys with us had a super clean rb25 powered s14 running a new garett gt30 at a lowish 14psi. He had been checking out the supercharger on the miata and wanted to race on the parkway. It was a dead lock! I couldn't believe it. If I was in 3rd I'd very slowly pull away, at the end of 4th he'd start to very slowly pull away. We must of gone 4 times, and everytime I'd wait till I heard him spool before punching it. I'm still floored... But happy!

I graduate med school in 2 weeks and just got my passing results for my last licensing exam for a while! So now it's time to play again. Ain't got no money, but small projects will commence! Already started organizin the garage. Stay tuned!

Any one have any pics of soft mounted Aluminum tanks?

And Jordan I'm fairly certain that it's impossible for a door slamm'n coupe to get the rear wing low enough to effect a rear diffuser to the point that any more than 7 degrees is just going to yield drag and no more effective down force. Plus Much more than 9 degrees and you're going to have to cut the trunk.

StanBo

06-01-2009, 03:36 PM

Very cool meeting you finally. Our paths will cross again :D

GSXRJJordan

06-01-2009, 08:15 PM

And Jordan I'm fairly certain that it's impossible for a door slamm'n coupe to get the rear wing low enough to effect a rear diffuser to the point that any more than 7 degrees is just going to yield drag and no more effective down force. Plus Much more than 9 degrees and you're going to have to cut the trunk.

Sick story, bums me out to know that the RB25 I'm putting in won't walk a Miata :keke:.

I haven't measured the distance from the subframe to the rear bumper yet, but was thinking it's somewhere between 24" and 30", which would give you a 4 1/8" - 5 1/4" height, which I think I can fit under the trunk with a 3" ground clearance and 1/4"-1/2" total undertray thickness... but I'm cutting my stock trunk anyway, since it's all bashed up, so I'll measure it out anyway.

Keep the updates comin!

SicBastard

06-02-2009, 08:44 AM

Hell ya StanBo, thanx for the hospitality!

I found out yesterday that the rb25 240 was only putting down 270 whp due to an overly rich tune. It's sitting around 10:1 AFR and making 14 psi. But still, it couldn't pull a miata that's sitting at 10.9:1 and making 12psi!

Jordan, what do you think about the ground clearance with a 1" square tube bolted to the bottom of the rear subframe?

SicBastard

07-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Headers:

I'm going back and fourth between three options:

1. I found these guys Custom Headers Built To Your Specifications (http://stainless.eclipticcms.com/customheaders)
they have a neat idea, they send you mock up kit, you position all the tubes where you want them and mail it back. All said and done in stainless for $1300+s&h with merge collectors. Plus the fact that they purge weld the headers is pretty bad ass.

2. But then I also have an old set of plain steel headers that some guy had for an OLD gm F or B body LS1 swap. They do not fit at all, but I scored them for $100 and figured they'd make a good starting point with the flanges at least. Plain steel headers always seemed like a waste of money to me. I don't care what you coat/paint/wrap them in they will be rusty within a year. Rust isn't the end of the world, but in a car that gets used rain or shine I don't think steel headers last much more than 6-7 years. It would take probably another couple hundred in j bends and collectors to make them.

3. My third option is to just drop the car off at Kooks or American Racing Headers here in Long Island. MINIMUM of $1500, and I'd have the least control over where the collectors end up.

Also, does anybody have any software to help determine tri-y vs 4 into 1, and primary and collector lengths?