Car not starting, No power to starter?

[benefitx]

ok well i just completed my first buld and my car wont start , not because of the engine but its because the starter is not getting any power...

ive narrowed it down to these 2 wires that come out of the main harness and bolt onto the intake manifold...which then connect to 2 other wires...

if anyone has any pictures of these 2 wires and where they go on their setup it would be great.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9626/1009100tl2le6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[drkidd22]

Make sure that the black/ white wire that comes from the switch to the starter is connected, also might want to check the clutch inhibitor switch.

[benefitx]

clutch inhibitor switch , the button under it? ...what black and white wire?

theres 2 wires going into the starter...

one that plugs into some flat thing
and one that goes around some stud thing and a nut goes on it.

[drkidd22]

clutch inhibitor switch , the button under it? ...what black and white wire?

theres 2 wires going into the starter...

one that plugs into some flat thing
and one that goes around some stud thing and a nut goes on it.

It;s just a relay that when you press the clutch (the button under it) grounds the relay and closes the circuit so that when the key is on the (start) position the signal is sent to the starter. What year is your car?:naughtyd:.

PS: I assume you checked all the fuses already, can you even turn on your headlights?

[benefitx]

yep...the clutch button is engaging....the 75a fuse was blown but i fixed it..

[Unit-121]

Was your car an auto or manual before you did the swap?

[benefitx]

nope...always been a manual...its not a swap , the car was running before and i spun a rod bearing...just dropped the motor back in

[drkidd22]

So by you saying engaging, it grounds? and you verified that the relay triggers? There is also a 30A fuse (green in my car) that can cause your car not to star.

[ohspizzill]

yep...the clutch button is engaging....the 75a fuse was blown but i fixed it..


you fixed the fuse or you replaced it? check all your grounds,and your cas.

[drkidd22]

you fixed the fuse or you replaced it? check all your grounds,and your cas.

cas? I think the cas has nothing to do with the starter not turning over according to the schematics.

[benefitx]

well the 75a ALT fuse popped , i just took off the plastic cover and bent it so they are touching again...so that way i got interior power again...

the relay does trigger...i had my bro listen while i started it...this relay was clicking.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8687/1009096qm8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[drkidd22]

ok, If it triggers that means you will have to find out where that black and white wire goes to, it should go to you starter with the 12v from your ignition switch when you hit start, make sure the wire is not cut, there is also a ground cable that has to be grounded from starter, and a big Black and red that comes from the battery.

[benefitx]

where is this black and white devil wire you speak of

[drkidd22]

where is this black and white devil wire you speak of

jajajajaja, might also be black/yellow, check your starter, what are the cables plug into it? color?

[benefitx]

lol ill show you a picture...the wiring done on my car is some crazy shit...1 min

[benefitx]

well look...theres this black box ok...it has 4 wires coming out of , 2 wires connect onto the intake manifold , one yellow wire goes back into the main harness , and one wire is the one that plugs into the starter....

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/118/1009102xv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[drkidd22]

lol ill show you a picture...the wiring done on my car is some crazy shit...1 min

If it's some crazy shit and not something easy to follow, you might want to get who did your wiring to check it, the cable from the starter, the one that plugs into that flat thing like you call it, should be the one coming from the relay you checked with the 12v after you press the clutch and put ignition on start. Also the way you "fixed" the 75A fuse doesn't sound good, just jump the freaking thing but thats up to you. :eek:

[drkidd22]

that looks llike it's for a relay which I don't see there, you really have some crazzy wiring, maybe it's for an alarm or something, don't know man.

[benefitx]

well the blue relay , the one that clicks...im guessing the power wire should be somewhere in that area right?

[drkidd22]

yes, the relay (blue) trggiers and from there the voltage is sent to the starter, maybe the yellow wire is the one, but you are missind another realy on that black thing, try jumping the yellow wire that goes to the main hardness with the one that comes out the starter, or before you do that, if you have a test light have your bro ground it and put the tip on the yellow wire, the crank and see if the light goes on.

[benefitx]

the black things plugs into another black thign with 4 prongs in it...you know what i mean

[drkidd22]

the black things plugs into another black thign with 4 prongs in it...you know what i mean

yeah, thats a realy, does that one trigger too when you try to crank>? if not it might be bad, you might want try finding where that yellow wire goes to, it might be the key.

[benefitx]

nope that one doesnt trigger...the yellow wire is the one that plugs into the starter...the whitish one goes into the wiring harness. the other 2 bolt into the intake mani

[johngriff]

Wow, your wiring is thrashed.

That 4 pronged connector just accepts a standar bosch style relay, you can pick it up for less than $5 at any autoparts store, if you do not hear it click over, it MAY have gone bad, but it might be the wiring.

I would suggest getting your car to someone GOOD with electrical, to sort your car out.

Uhh... it looks like they are using that as the clutch interlock. Get a multimeter and see if the yellow wire powers up on the key in "start" position. Or if it grounds, one of the two, either way so that it is switching.

[benefitx]

wow johngriff...thats crazy. how you knew all of that from one picture....

but yeah the wiring isnt like messed up...its just very complicated....theres grounds everywhere...random things i dont even know what they do...but heres a picture of the bosch relay johngriff mentioned....

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/412/1009104xp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[benefitx]

to check it, do i just pull off the bosch relay and stick the red needle into the black thing

[benefitx]

ok well i opened up the relay...there is some white crust shit everywhere, does that mean its blown?

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9433/1009105vg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[johngriff]

Test the relay, by jumping leads on the relay, one to ground, one to power, um let me see if i cant find one outside, I could give you pin numbers.

iirc, 86 is souce, 86 device.
45 switch, 46 source?

[johngriff]

my bad, jump 85 to 86 and listen for a click, that is the trigger

30 to 87x2 is to source (5 prong)

[benefitx]

i really dont know what that means or how to test the relay , but the relay has this little arm that completes the circuit or something...

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1879/1009107ph0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

and this is what it says on the side

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5152/1009106nm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[johngriff]

on the bottom of the relay where the pins are, printed next to each pin is a number, jump 85 to 86

meaning:
run a lead from the ground of your battery to 85,
run a lead from positive of your battery to 86

As soon as you connect it, you should hear a "click", toggling the connection on/off it should go "click, click, click" and that armature should move making the clicking noise.


I just looked at the corrosion on the contact, it is probably keeping it from a good connection.
Mix some baking soda with hot water, and clean the corrosion off by dipping a q-tip into the solution then applying to the corrosion and contacts. Dry it with a hair dryer. Do this with the relay disconnected.

Put the case back on, and run a bead of hot glue around the seal, the relay did this because the case was not sealed properly and moisture/crap built up on it.

[benefitx]

so i just run wires into the prongs? from my battery

and if it does click or doesnt?

[O3DigitalBath]

that arm is what moves when you give the relay power....

if it does click (that arm moves) the relay is good, if it doesn't then its bad.

[benefitx]

so like this huh

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6416/1009108zc8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[johngriff]

yes

msglngth

[benefitx]

it does click lol...i had fun doing that.

nowwhat

[johngriff]

if its not clicking while plugged in, some thing is wrong, id say with whatever you are using to trigger the relay, probably the key.

to "hot start" the relay:

Identify if it is 85 or 86 that is grounded at the intake mani.
use the oposite of the ground (if 85 is ground, use 86) and connect to 12v supplied, and see if that bumps the starter.

If it is clicking, but not grounding the starter, cleaning the crap off the contacts is probably the way to go.

[benefitx]

woah woah woah lmao...i suck at electrical...so yeah...its those 2 stupid wires huh...and the other 2 stupider wires that go into the wiring harness...ive used every possible combination, switching them... stacking all of them on top of each other , idk

[benefitx]

86 is the black wire on the intake mani. 85 is the white wire going back into the harness. 30 is the blue wire right next to 86

[benefitx]

here is a better visual johngriff...and i appreciate your help

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/9810/1009102xv6ib5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[benefitx]

whered he go?:()

[benefitx]

bumpitybump.

[lazierhobo]

if someone turns the key, do you measure any voltage at the white wire going to the starter?
if yes, then starter is blown,
if no then measure voltage going to relay

[benefitx]

the white wire is actually a black/white wire...it changes colors , but anways...

no i have not done that yet.

is the clutch inhibitor relay thing supposed to click to?

i get 2 clicks when i turn the key, the clutch inhibitor and the big fat blue relay in the headlight area...

[johngriff]

Is the white wire off of pin 87 going to the tab on the starter?

If so, connect 30 to battery power, and if the ign key is switching 85/86 on, it should fire the starter.

[GSXRJJordan]

If/when you decide to check the rest of your wiring, here's my pin-to-pin diagram for the redtop engine harness. save it/enlarge at your leisure.

http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hpim0254dq0.jpg

Without knowing what the hell's going on with the rest of the harness, I'd say it'd be worth your time to sit down with a multimeter (and the harness out of the car) and check your pins to my diagram. That way = no headaches later.

Edit: The connectors are all labeled with the pin numbers they corrospond to on the ECU plug... problem is, the ECU diagram isn't hosted. I'll have to work on that... PM me if you pull your harness and want to do a pinout, I can email it to ya at the very least.

[benefitx]

thats some crazy stuff gsxrjjordan...

ok well i got some really long wire and connected it to my battery and gave power to the wires on the intake mani...nothing...not even clicking...

[johngriff]

Do it like this.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2/vonendorphin/stater.jpg

[benefitx]

so i have top give power to both the wires on the intake mani

[benefitx]

whenever i connect the 12v constant to the wires on the intake manifold , i just get smoke and sparking...no clicking from the relay

[johngriff]

No, not both, just one of the wires, the wire to pin 30. Wire it up PER the diagram.

[benefitx]

so take the bosch relay off and put the wire connected to battery on it?

[benefitx]

i dont get why when i put the relay and connected it with wires to the battery , the armature was clicking...

but when im connecting the battery to the wire on the intake mani , i get nothing

[johngriff]

basically, if you wire it up by the diagram, when you activate your switch, if it is the key or a hard switch on pin 86, the starter motor will turn over.

[benefitx]

what do those 2 other wires that are coming out of the main harness do then? i dont get what to do..

[benefitx]

cant i give power directly to the starter tab

[benefitx]

OK i gave power directly to the starter tab...the motor started turning over then i had my brother start the car while i did that...and BAM motor started right up....alot of clicking from somewhere though....like a timing chain rattle a KA24DE gives...now just to find why a way for it to turn over with the keys :) :) :) .........is white smoke normal too?

[benefitx]

even better...you know that white wire that goes into the relay??

well i pulled it out of the black box and connected THAT into the starter tab...starter works everytime now....so i have eliminated that bosch relay thing completely...

but i have this horrible ticking noise...its coming from the head i think...could it be valves hitting pistons? air in the HLA? idk but its pretty bad...timing doesnt sound like its off althought i dropped that chain multiple times

[benefitx]

the ticking gets louder with the revs too

[johngriff]

add some atf for startup, this might help free up the lifters if there is some air. Other wise did you bleed the lifters per fsm?

[benefitx]

didnt need to bleed them , they didnt have any play in them...do you think maybe i dropped a shim? i mean i checked before i put in the cams...should i make a video?

[benefitx]

maybe i did bend a valve when i spun the rod bearing...the top of #3 piston has 2 marks on the side of it from it hitting the head...maybe a bent valve , maybe bad timing , maybe air in the HLA's , gah...

[drkidd22]

OK i gave power directly to the starter tab...the motor started turning over then i had my brother start the car while i did that...and BAM motor started right up....alot of clicking from somewhere though....like a timing chain rattle a KA24DE gives...now just to find why a way for it to turn over with the keys :) :) :) .........is white smoke normal too?

Good man finally got it going:ughd:

[benefitx]

yeah man there was no devil black and white wire...it was just straight up white...that was the starter solenoid wire....

[drkidd22]

yeah man there was no devil black and white wire...it was just straight up white...that was the starter solenoid wire....


You said it yourself that you had some crazzy wiring, I was going by the FSM.

[benefitx]

yea man im not blamin ya...i really do have some crazy ass wiring...but there was a black and white wire actually, it went on the starter tab...it was the yellow wire, it was like spliced in just so it could change colors lmao.

[drkidd22]

yea man im not blamin ya...i really do have some crazy ass wiring...but there was a black and white wire actually, it went on the starter tab...it was the yellow wire, it was like spliced in just so it could change colors lmao.

So you did find the devil black/white wire, it was just hiding:doh: well good luck with everything else, I'm still trying to get my own car started and I don't seem to find what the real deal is.

[benefitx]

well whats the problem maybe i kno something

[drkidd22]

well whats the problem maybe i kno something

I have Thread on it, if you want you can look for it under my profile, but my problem is that i'm not getting any spark at all, everything else works, fuel pump, lights, starter, etc, but the only and main crucial thing (THE SPARK) is not working. I been onto this for about a week now and can't find nothing. Look at my thread.

[benefitx]

ok i think i have rod knock again...what the fuck.

[benefitx]

hold on i have a video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zPKJeKHtvhY

wait a few minutes...

[benefitx]

could it be the oil pump was dead...and it just overheated it again and caused bearing failure

please let it be a shim that fell into the valve springs...

is there anyway it can still be saved? if i replace the oil pump now...

[benefitx]

hey , would the oil light come on if the oil pump is dead.

[O3DigitalBath]

oil light should be on anytime you don't have shit for oil pressure.

dead oil pump could be one reason....I wouldn't be running the car with very long at all with the oil light looking back at you.

[benefitx]

eh oil light wasnt on...

i just took out the entire engine and the intake and exhaust mani's and heater hoses..../////perseverance for what it counts.lmao.

i suck.

[DisEpyon]

even better...you know that white wire that goes into the relay??

well i pulled it out of the black box and connected THAT into the starter tab...starter works everytime now....so i have eliminated that bosch relay thing completely...


Im just wondering , But do you have your engine grounded to the chassis of your car. Like a big gauge wire? Cause grounding your motor to the chassis is really important. Or maybe you did, or did you just not know where that white wire went to? Im just I read the thread and got a little confused but just wondering incase somthing like this would happen to me, im learning about wiring and stuff like that.

[DisEpyon]

yeah man there was no devil black and white wire...it was just straight up white...that was the starter solenoid wire....

Nvm ,forget my stupid post:) hehe, just needed to read further

[benefitx]

hey yeah...prolly wont happen to you unless you got some crazy people to do your wiring but....

the black and white wire that drkidd mentioned was the perpetrator...on my harness it was fused into a relay box with 3 other wires coming out of it,

i eliminated the relay box and ran that black and white wire directly to the starter.

oh and another thing accomplished was...if your interior lights go out , headlights wont come up, radio wont work. CHECK YOUR 75A ALT FUSE.

[benefitx]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zPKJeKHtvhY
.....

[benefitx]

ok i just pulled out the engine...


pulled off the head

pulled the oil pans , front cover ,....basically a bare block...

after i pulled the pan i found this little metal tooth that chipped off from the front cover in the oil pan...theres 2 little teeth at the bottom of the cover one is broken off, could this be the knocking?


pulled the upper pan , from what i can SEE the bearings look fine....theres no play in the rods and caps so wtf?

[benefitx]

took off the girdle for further inspection...one of the ROD CAP NUTS WAS LOOSE WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[johngriff]

Wow, yeah torque that stuff man.

[DOOK]

so you are rebuilding the engine again? WOW, it's almost like a hobby or something now, maybe obsession.

[benefitx]

i dont mind it...gotta do what you gotta do...already took off the girdle and everything and torqued everything back down to spec...but crank is too hard to turn...i guess i have to break it free again...have to wait on head gasket to get here again...that 30$ headgasket actually was pretty good...it sealed everything like RTV or something...actually surprised...

so yeah 1 more week again, im selling my tailight's (kouki's) so 350$ for those , going to replace oil pump , head studs , head gasket , water pump , rear main seal , all the gaskets and stuff...not taking this engine out for a while again

do you guys think ill be alright using the same bearings? the engine only idled and never taken above 4k rpm (drove it for maybe 2 minutes before heard knocking)...