nasa driver with swap questions

[x'ed]

i drive in nasa in so. cal, currently in hpde in my crossfire. my lease is up soon and i was going to get an evo and track in that as well as daily drive, but decided to get a nice comfortable daily driver (2005 dodge magnum hemi) and a dedicated track car. Its basically down to the 240sx and a miata, but im 6'1 and my knees clang against all kinds of stuff in the miata so its about 80% in favor of the 240 right now. i have always dreamed of a swapped 240 and think they look amazing with the silvia front end. and considering i could either get a 150 + mile miata and then have to spend another 3800 on the vodoo turbo kit and hope the motor doesn't go to the crapper, or just purchase a jdm motor with alot less miles and already turbo'd for the 240, the advantage sways in favor of the 240.

so with the background info and intro behind me, i want to get some advice about what motor i should swap into the 240 if i want to run in nasa events. like i said i am currently in hpde but i am working towards getting my racing license and moving up in class in the next 1-2 years.

so what engine is better suited for nasa road racing events in your guys opinion? the blacktop sr20det or the rb25det? i have heard you can make 300whp on a sr20det pretty safely on stock internals, but the rb can go up to 400+ on stock internals, but that is sort of aside from the point. which engine works best as a well balanced track engine? that the main question. thanks in advance. also, what kind of power can the rb20det handle? i have heard 350 or so also, and if that is the case, whats the advantage of that motor, or disadvantage? its much cheaper than the others, any reason for that? is it just because its older?



p.s., before i get flamed i have been reading these forums religously for five days but haven't really found an answer to this question. if you don't want to help out its cool, but if someone does, thanks mucho.

preparing to get :Ownedd: , but hope i can get some love.

[mehsilvia]

Since everyone else is gonna say it . . .

First, you should learn to track the car, as is, with little modification as possible

Second, get your suspension and braking done.

Third, safety

Last (and what you been waiting for) my recommendation is the SR20DET.
The Redtop if your looking cheaper with little sacrifice on peak-power.

I only recommend this for the simple fact that NASA has already classified the SR20DET swap, and that means they are not gonna rape you with points (too much).

[x'ed]

honestly i don't want to learn how to drive the car with the stock engine and suspension because it will behave completely different with the upgraded engine and suspension. i appreciate your input though very much, but arent the redtops more likely to have higher mileage? i am hoping to get a lower mileage engine.

[x'ed]

p.s. i am looking at a s13

[tknbkthrsdy4anfg]

Blacktop FTW, lots of aftermarket, ease of getting parts and relatively inexpensive.

[x'ed]

so there is no advantage, in your guys opinion, as far as nasa is concerned, to getting the rb25det? a big part of that being the points classification, correct?

[x'ed]

and sorry guys. last newb question i swear. I am getting ready to buy a 92 hatchback 240 for 2 grand. how much should i plan on spending on the swap, labor not included (my roomate is a master tech, just swapped a new engine into my roomates 1991 300zx twin turbo), just parts. my budget is 6 grand, two for the car, so 4 left over for the engine swap. i think a blacktop is like 2500 shipped, so 1500 left for other parts. then suspension at the end of the summer. i know alot of guys will say im going backwards, but thats just how i do things lol. i like to get the biggest expense out of the way first because money seems to burn a whole in my pocket. thanks!

[trogdor]

what fun is a car without suspension. personally, i would rethink the sr20 being the first mod and load up some suspension like the guy above said.

[x'ed]

the suspension will come AFTER the engine. i am not going to run the car in NASA until next March, there is plenty of time for the suspension, but in the interim, on the occasional drive to and from work, i would rather have the sr20det in there. im coming from a car with amazing handeling and no power, wouldn't mind the opposite as a trade off in the short term.

[trogdor]

oh, so 4x4 sr20 style for the time being. cute

[x'ed]

oh, so 4x4 sr20 style for the time being. cute

why do you post when you have nothing of any substance to say?

[Silverbullet]

if your going to do road racing, i would look into rebuilding the motor, especially if your looking for 300WHP. Being in high RPM and constant load for 320-350HP will tire it out pretty quick. Road racing isn't cheap. Grass root road racers look for the most economical and effective setups.

Have you looked into turboing the stock KA24DE motor? Its 2.4L... The money your about to spend to buy a stock Japanese engine, you could use to rebuild the KA to beef it up. With the money your going to spend to upgrade the turbo on the SR, you could invest in a larger turbo setup for the KA. At the end, you end up with a similiar or better setup except you have 0.4L extra.

[CA18_S13]

I would look into the problems you can run into with the swap. But a sr20 swap isn't too bad its just when random problems. I would say if your gonna get a sr20 might as well do a fresh rebulid while its out with the 1500. If i were you though i would be partial to going ka-t and just get the ka rebulit and spend the rest of the money turboing it.

[aznpoopy]

guys, he sounds like a seasoned hpde'r so the typical 'suspension before power noobs' advice does not really apply.

$1500 seems a bit on the low side for your motorswap extras budget. i'd save up a bit more. or, get a roller with a bad motor. save yourself $1k or so.

[projectRDM]

guys, he sounds like a seasoned hpde'r so the typical 'suspension before power noobs' advice does not really apply.

$1500 seems a bit on the low side for your motorswap extras budget. i'd save up a bit more. or, get a roller with a bad motor. save yourself $1k or so.

True, but spirited driving in the meantime with the added power on an OE suspension is that much more a safety issue. While I can agree the OP does not seem to be a moron, how many people do we see drop an SR in and then stuff the car into a ditch the next day?

[steve shadows]

I agree with mehsilvia to the tee.

Do invesst in some new shocks and springs at least to start, tire compound however and class limitations will get you farther than suspension + ok tires or sub-standard.

[x'ed]

i appreciate the input guys, i have considered building a k24 but im the type of guy who likes to rev high, and from what i understand the ka doesn't really do that. i appreciate the suspension comments, but honestly, for the next 8 months this thing is not going to be takin any corners at over 3o miles per hour, no spirited driving aside from the occasional break from driving the magnum to work.

i have considered getting a roller with a bad motor, the last time i looked into 240's they were the same price they are now and that was four years ago.

you underpowered hpde guys know that even though its not supposed to be "racing", it is really frustrating to hand evo's and the likes their asses in the corners just to get walked on a straight away and then they won't allow you to pass them until you make some smartass remark in the downloads. i guess i will look into a built k20 but have dreamed about a sr20det'd silivia since i was 16 (9 years ago). thanks for the input guys! i think i will just save up another 1500 or so, or maybe sell the spare pool table that is in pieces in my garage.

[aznpoopy]

nice, but fyi
its ka24de
not honda k24 or k20. rawr

if you buy a shell or blown 240sx you could save 1k or so.

[MomentumGT]

so there is no advantage, in your guys opinion, as far as nasa is concerned, to getting the rb25det? a big part of that being the points classification, correct?

I think if you swap the rb25 the rules bump you to the Super Unlimited Class versus staying Super Touring 2 with us :hug:. The SU class guys have some stupid power so if you're not looking to break into the 500whp-700whp I recommend staying sr as it is pretty reliable in the ST2 class. Hurry up and get your liscense already so we can trade paint! Don't worry I'll make sure the guys welcome you in and show you some track love. :D If you need any info or if you want to take a look at our car let me know.

-Jon

[x'ed]

lol, my bad. im a lifelong honda hater! lol, never make the mistake again.

[bigOdom1]

get a shell its a track car anyway dont need anything nice. use the money saved and replace all the bushings and get some low end suspension. the susension on an s13 is almost guaranteed to be shot after 13+ years. do the bushings and lowend coils/shocks/coilovers and then swap the motor at the same time if you have yet to drive a 240 you dont know the shit suspension thats probably on it

[slownslurious]

go with the ls1.

[kognition]

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you do have significant track experience, which means you would be a fast learner. Nothing wrong with starting out stock to get aclimated with the car. S13 or S14 are both great cars to track. It just comes down to personal preference. As far as your being on the fence about getting an Evo or a S Chassis, at the moment.. the fastest car on any Time Attack circuit here in the states is the Magic/JIC S15. It is a SR built by Tomei of Japan. It just took the all time fastest lap recorded at ButtonWillow away from the Sun Evo. IMHO RWD takes significantly more brain function to track than an AWD car. Once you track a stock SR, you will immediately want to begin adding power to it. You will also find that most owners here tend to do their own engine work/planning. Good knowledge base here at Zilvia. You can easily get 350+ on an SR with a few good upgrades and not go broke doing it.


i drive in nasa in so. cal, currently in hpde in my crossfire. my lease is up soon and i was going to get an evo and track in that as well as daily drive, but decided to get a nice comfortable daily driver (2005 dodge magnum hemi) and a dedicated track car. Its basically down to the 240sx and a miata, but im 6'1 and my knees clang against all kinds of stuff in the miata so its about 80% in favor of the 240 right now. i have always dreamed of a swapped 240 and think they look amazing with the silvia front end. and considering i could either get a 150 + mile miata and then have to spend another 3800 on the vodoo turbo kit and hope the motor doesn't go to the crapper, or just purchase a jdm motor with alot less miles and already turbo'd for the 240, the advantage sways in favor of the 240.

so with the background info and intro behind me, i want to get some advice about what motor i should swap into the 240 if i want to run in nasa events. like i said i am currently in hpde but i am working towards getting my racing license and moving up in class in the next 1-2 years.

so what engine is better suited for nasa road racing events in your guys opinion? the blacktop sr20det or the rb25det? i have heard you can make 300whp on a sr20det pretty safely on stock internals, but the rb can go up to 400+ on stock internals, but that is sort of aside from the point. which engine works best as a well balanced track engine? that the main question. thanks in advance. also, what kind of power can the rb20det handle? i have heard 350 or so also, and if that is the case, whats the advantage of that motor, or disadvantage? its much cheaper than the others, any reason for that? is it just because its older?



p.s., before i get flamed i have been reading these forums religously for five days but haven't really found an answer to this question. if you don't want to help out its cool, but if someone does, thanks mucho.

preparing to get :Ownedd: , but hope i can get some love.

[fridaytech]

if you are going to be tracking the car and running hard for long periods of time. sr20det do some engine prep before installing it.

remove head due valve job with guides and seals. upgrade valve train for those mis shifts that run the rpms high. (less likely to float a valve)

new water pump/ thermostat. koyo radiator. If you run electric fans get a hks fan controller. big led screen that flashes and makes noise if overheating. also has water sprayer controller built in for inter cooler or radiator.

replace oil pan with high volume and baffles to lower changes of oil starvation in corners. oil cooler always a good thing.

[MomentumGT]

.. the fastest car on any Time Attack circuit here in the states is the Magic/JIC S15. It is a SR built by Tomei of Japan. It just took the all time fastest lap recorded at ButtonWillow away from the Sun Evo.

So getting that the S15 is finally faster than the GMG Porshe driven by Sofranos? Must of been at the last Redline TA which I missed. :bash: Good job Sofranos is one tough customer.

-Jon

[MomentumGT]

if you are going to be tracking the car and running hard for long periods of time. sr20det do some engine prep before installing it.

remove head due valve job with guides and seals. upgrade valve train for those mis shifts that run the rpms high. (less likely to float a valve)

new water pump/ thermostat. koyo radiator. If you run electric fans get a hks fan controller. big led screen that flashes and makes noise if overheating. also has water sprayer controller built in for inter cooler or radiator.

replace oil pan with high volume and baffles to lower changes of oil starvation in corners. oil cooler always a good thing.

+1 on the oil cooler and the oil pan. We don't run fans on our s13, at speeds it acts as a blanket and traps hot air between the radiator and fan. Track temps have been up to 120 deg. plus and still no need for electric fans, but we still seem to bring it with us to the track for some reason. Go figure.

-Jon

[x'ed]

finally, the track gurus have arrived!! i can't wait to get out there with you guys, but i'll be in hpde a little longer, can't afford a full fledged track car just yet.

that being said, no rb25 for met, super unlimitied is WAY to harcore.

so my next question is where did you guys purchase your sr20det's from (so.cal area, or all of california i guess). I would prefer to pick mine up so i could get a compression test on it and what not, check it out first hand before i purchase it. i see a bunch of sellers in the vendor sale area, but venus is the only local one and they don't have a price list up on there website. thanks guys!

[bigOdom1]

got mine from jarco

[kognition]

There are alot of people bringing SR's in. I will throw out Panda Garage because they are a good company and they do have prices on their site. You can order pretty much anything from them that comes out of Japan. East San Diego County.http://pandagarage.com


finally, the track gurus have arrived!! i can't wait to get out there with you guys, but i'll be in hpde a little longer, can't afford a full fledged track car just yet.

that being said, no rb25 for met, super unlimitied is WAY to harcore.

so my next question is where did you guys purchase your sr20det's from (so.cal area, or all of california i guess). I would prefer to pick mine up so i could get a compression test on it and what not, check it out first hand before i purchase it. i see a bunch of sellers in the vendor sale area, but venus is the only local one and they don't have a price list up on there website. thanks guys!

[GlacierFreeze]

i appreciate the input guys, i have considered building a k24 but im the type of guy who likes to rev high, and from what i understand the ka doesn't really do that.

Who needs to rev high when there's plenty of TQ? Not my video but here's KA24 with twin scroll Full-Race mani and GT3071R. He runs 20psi and makes 400WTQ @ ~3600rpms!

J-Rho's SM 240sx in car action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7C6VhLZ1pA)

Build-up thread (http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=163184)

[x'ed]

i appreciate a torquey engine, but everyones different! something about the sound of high revs gets me going. never been a muscle car fan, always an import fan, and thats one of the main reasons. and wow!! he got a manifold that costs 1400 dollars!! that doesn't seem worth it to me.

[GlacierFreeze]

Do you prefer log manifolds?

[x'ed]

lol, no, i know the full race type is superior, but considering i can buy a complete turbo engine for about that much it doesn't make much sense to me. that kind of buildup seems like it would cost alot more in parts alone. but to each his own.

[GlacierFreeze]

Complete turbo motor for $1400? How long do you expect it to last?

Of course that build up costs quite a bit of money. A.) He didn't cut any corners and B.) It's meant to be competitive (not end of the pack). Racing is not cheap.

[x'ed]

well im not going to argue with you and get my thread closed, im sure this has been gone over a million times on this forum, but from what i can see, it is cheaper and no harder to build a fast sr20det than it is to build a fast ka24, and that is what matters to me. do you race? i see you have stock 240 so im not sure why you have such a bias toward ka24 engines, maybe you just like torque. and by looking at your other posts i can see you have been scouring for a cheap turbo kit yourself, so im not sure what the basis of what you are saying is.

that aside, you are probably a pretty good guy. I was born 12-10-82, only a day apart from you.

p.s., didn't someone post the fastest time attack car in america was sr powered? i mean that is evidence enough for me.

[kognition]

The JIC S15 is freakishly fast, and when they ran that record setting lap time, our sponsored 350Z T.T. came in second place but still a whole 10 seconds behind it! Our Z is a JWT T.T. motor fully tuned at JWT. To put it into a track perspective. :2f2f:


p.s., didn't someone post the fastest time attack car in america was sr powered? i mean that is evidence enough for me.

[GlacierFreeze]

Wasn't trying to start a big argument. My main point was that the 240 doesn't need a swap to be fast. It can be fast with or without one. It can also be slow and unreliable with or without one.

I guess I've seen too many posts over the past 5 years or so where people don't even consider the KA. I've also seen many posts where it has been proven to be a really good engine. Was only making sure you knew that, that's all.

[x'ed]

i understand what your saying. i just like an engine that feels a little more rev happy. but i can appreciate what you are saying. and depending on what class you are driving in, NASA can be relatively cheap. the guys in TTD dont spend crazy money on their cars. if you haven't tried NASA you should, its alot of fun.

[GlacierFreeze]

I bet it is a lot of fun. I have 3 more semesters for my bachelor's and then I can afford to build a car (or say screw it and buy new lol). But until then, working part time and going to school kinda kills that.

Good luck!

[x'ed]

i feel you im doing the same thing, which leaves me sort of pressed for time, then its on to law school (yay! very sarcastic) but then the doors open and ill be driving something very fast, modern and safe out there (bmw 135i ftw baby!).