timing questions

[benefitx]

when i put my timing chain on , my engine was not at TDC but i mated the yellow mark with the crank...then turned it to TDC...i can still just allign the cam sprockets with the black marks and ill be good right?

[benefitx]

basically what i am asking is: does the chain have to be put on BEFORE or AFTER i set it to TDC or it doesnt matter?

what i did was...the engine was not at tdc...i mated the gold link up with the crank...THEN set it to TDC...

[benefitx]

ok...someone could just come in here and say "as long as the black marks line up with the sprockets your good" but no...people just hover over and say nothing.gay

[johngriff]

Haha, Hit me on AIM

RPSportJohn

yo!

[DOOK]

I have absolutely no Idea :D

[johngriff]

Gold link on crank.

Engine at tdc.



cam lobes facing out.

crank it by hand w/the pulley on, and look for it to line up again, it should take like 24 revolutions or something like that.

[steve shadows]

the motor should be set to TDC first, using the mark onthe sproket of the crank shaft.

Line up the shiney link on the timing chain with the dot on the lower sprocket of the crankshaft *if the crank pulley is already removed* if it is not removed you should be able to count 20 link pins/teeth between the top two links when they are sitting on their cooresponding marks on the chain.

For more clear reference i suggest you check the FSM.

http://www.pa-nissans.com/links/

use the 1994 s14 SR one.

there is a diagram for cam alignment in there.

this link may help also

http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=164746&highlight=chain+links

[benefitx]

wow man cant thank you enough

[benefitx]

i think i might have jumped some teeth because the chain fell down and i grabbed it again...can i just keep dropping it and bringing it up until i think its back on the mark?

or do i have to pull the oil pump off again...

[steve shadows]

i think i might have jumped some teeth because the chain fell down and i grabbed it again...can i just keep dropping it and bringing it up until i think its back on the mark?

or do i have to pull the oil pump off again...

if it fell on the intake side you should be ok, if the chain fell down on the exaust side, it may have popped off the mark/notch.

if your pulley is off and your used to taking off the front cover, just do it right without the cover on (ie put the cams, head on etc and then put the coveron to avoid messing it up, unless youve already installed a OEM hg).

[slider2828]

Ok I did everything without even doing that at all. It was a trick on freshalloy and it worked great....

Yes the correct FSM way is to crank the crank to tdc which is the second notch from the left on the crank pulley. Then you have to make sure the two dull silver links match with the mating marks on the cam gear while on TDC then put in the CAS lining up with the dark dot and after insertion to cam gear it should be turned very slightly to the gold mark.

Ok here is the trick to know if you are on or off timing, when you are at TDC, no matter what chain link is where, after inserting the CAS into the cam gear, you have to make sure the CAS is in the middle of the adjustment range of it or more counter clockwise position relative to the entire adjustment range of CAS, otherwise all the way counterclockwise = wrong or clockwise = wrong, do over.

You dropped your chain so you have roughly a 50/50 chance of getting it back on. So read carefully. I did this yesterday on a friend's car that his idiot brother dropped the chain.

First turn your crank pulley to tdc, which is second mark from the left on your crank pulley. Make sure it STAYs on TDC. Then, you crank your EXHAUST cam till the cam KEY is EXACTLY at 12 o'clock perpendicular to the head gasket. Exhaust Cam KEY is the thing that locks the Cam in place to the cam shaft so it doesn't spin around. Exactly 12 o'clock not 12:05 or 11:55, exactly 12 o'clock high noon. You should be able to draw a perpindicular line from the exhaust cam key to the head gasket.

Then you count 20 rollers to the left of the exhaust Cam gear MATING mark. Mating mark is the dot on the exhaust cam gear. so like this

0||||||||||||||||||||0 (Exactly twenty chain rollers/pins, no more no less, or it WILL not work.)

Then you put the intake cam mating mark on shown in the diagram above. So literally 20 rollers in BETWEEN the two mating marks. Note - you can only turn both the cams if they are not locked down by the cam retainers or the little bridge things. MAKE SURE TDC is there at all times or it will not work.

Next, tie down the Cams with the bridge things and then put in the CAS and then the tensioner. Now crank the crank 1 pull revolution forward then 1 full revolution back to TDC, to make sure the chain didn't jump. Count again the rollers to make sure there is exactly 20 rollers between the two mating marks on the Cam gears.

Put everything back and timing should be on. Remember to insert the CAS correctly while on TDC and remember the tip I said about how to tell if your timing is on at the beginning of this post. It will save you a lot of trouble in the end. Good luck.

It is roughly 50/50 because hopefully your chain did not drop 1/2 roller over otherwise things will be a little off. Secondly, make sure the mating marks and teeth are exactly in the middle of 1 chain link. like this below
>
like this ----> (0 0) not like this ----- (0 0) (0 0)
^ ^

Good Luck Seriously. What a gamble lol, but you can get good removing CAMs on the up side. I can remove cover and cam with two people in 10 minutes now, Lol...

-Ken

P.S. We only did it this way because the engine was in the car and all peripheral pumps and stuff was installed already.

Please let me know if this works out for you.

[benefitx]

ok...what if i just take off the front cover and not drop it again...so basically all i have to check for is the exhaust cam to be at 12 o clock...i always thought the first cam lobes should be facing outwards, that how you know its right...

[slider2828]

Dropping the front cover means you have to take off the upper oil pan correct?

The exhaust and the intake #1 cam lobes will face outwards when the exhaust key is facing exactly 12 noon and when you have 20 rollers between the mating marks in betwee. Just do it, and you can tell. WHen you also get this the #3 cam lobes will point opposite of each other. As well.

[benefitx]

well theres 2 bolts on the upper oil pan which can be gotten to by dropping the lower...i think:confused:...

[benefitx]

there will always be 20 rollers in between the marks...right...wtf im lost

[benefitx]

4.5 to 5.5 teeth to the head, counter-clockwise on the intake, and 8 to 9 teeth to the head clockwise on the exhaust, with 20 rollers between the #1 teeth.

and intake cam = 10 o clock
and exhaust cam = 12 o clock...

if i just remember this i'll be good?

[slider2828]

Are you kidding me, the upper oil pan stretchs all the way back to the tranny and you notic you can't really even take out the upper oil pan with the front cross member in the way hahahaha..... Secondly you have to rtv that thing shut, and you can't get good seal without dropping the motor.... So no, you can't really do that....

Yes ALWAYS 20 rollers in between the two marks. I can't stress enough the cam key is at 12 noon exactly and tdc

[benefitx]

when you drop the lower oil pan, theres 4 1/2inch bolts, 2 of them bolt to the front cover...you take those off , the pulley and the front cover bolts. but anyways

with that info i dont think ill have to take off the front cover.

[benefitx]

i dont get the 20 rollers thing...how will that change unless i modify the chain wtf?

[slider2828]

Hahaha, twist the intake cam bro until its 20 rollers. Basically the exhaust cam is the reference and you twist the intake to find 20 rollers.

[benefitx]

im about to shoot myself...my head gasket wont be here till wednesday...ill worry about this shit then....

[slider2828]

Yup save the link, hahaha.... Wewt 603 posts. Anyways, you get the idea. Ima sure you'll be fine. My friends car works fine, so I am sure you'll be ok. Get a helpful friend to help you, it makes turning the cam and holding the chain easier. Hey report back, I want to see if it works for you.
-Ken

[benefitx]

thanks alot man +1 (i dont even think my reps count anymore)....but yeah i get the idea , its just that it dropped down there like 4 times...i put the head on and test fitted the cams, intake and exhaust lobes were facing outwards so i guess it didnt jump...but only one way to find out...wednesday, ill keep this and the other thread updated...

if the timing is too out of whack theres chances of my valves bending right...

[slider2828]

Eh probably not, because I don't think the stock lift of cams come even close to touching the piston. Don't worry too much about it.

[benefitx]

alright cool...probably revive this thread friday.

[steve shadows]

Are you kidding me, the upper oil pan stretchs all the way back to the tranny and you notic you can't really even take out the upper oil pan with the front cross member in the way hahahaha..... Secondly you have to rtv that thing shut, and you can't get good seal without dropping the motor.... So no, you can't really do that....




Ive done this in the car a couple times now. ??? it's a PITA but it's far from impossible

[benefitx]

it looks like a PITA with the engine out of the car...but its possible..

im just gunna count the links counter clockwise and clockwise...then see if they are facing outwards, then see if the exhaust is at 12 o clock...i should be ok

[slider2828]

Do it in the order that I described above bro.... 12 o'clock as the reference then spin it back then forth. but as you stall it with the exhaust cam key at 12 noon, the intake and exhast #1 lobes should point 10am and 1:30pm

[eastcoastS14]

Im about to attempt this in a couple days but im confused...what do you mean by dropping the chain?

[benefitx]

when you take off your sprockets and cams , the chain is just hanging there...sometimes people can drop it and it's a possibility that the chain can jump teeth at the crank and lose its position therefore messing the timing up...

but what this thread and a couple others have stated is....

the mating mark on the sprocket of the EXHAUST cam should be facing at 12 o clock...the intake should be 10 o clock

not only that...but it SHOULD look like this

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1323/timingto7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[benefitx]

you see what we mean by 12 and 10??

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8123/timinggd9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[slider2828]

Yah, but if you didn't drop the chain, do it the FSM way

[eastcoastS14]

so how do you keep from dropping the chain when you're replacing the HG...maybe im a little confused

[steve shadows]

so how do you keep from dropping the chain when you're replacing the HG...maybe im a little confused

you tie it up

[slider2828]

OMG come on.... maybe bring it to a mechanic maybe a good idea?

[eastcoastS14]

ahahaha no thats ok...I get it now, it just sounded funny reading it idk why...

[jspec_S14]

ahahaha no thats ok...I get it now, it just sounded funny reading it idk why...

I guess i understand why you may have been confused, i didnt really understand exactly the significance of dropping the chain, but once you loose tension around the lower sprocket you have a big chance of putting your chain on another tooth... Then your timing wont be proper.

good read btw, hopefully down the road i can use the technique.

[Master Chief]

The chain cant jump anywhere from the crank sproket, even if its dropped, as there are two small retainers on the back of the oil pump, that prevents the chain jumping off , of the crank sproket.

That said, simply turn the crank a few times, to get the matting marks on the chain, to align with the the sprokets marks (that little dot), while you sit the cams in position, as per the FSM.

After you finish, turn the engine until you see them lined up again while the crank is at TDC (you need to turn it quite a few times) - then you can be sure you did it right.