Patriotism

[Mlogue84]

I just saw the MOST AMAZING thing! So I'm at work right now and I'm on my way to my next job and I look to the side of the road and see three huge american flags waving back and forth everytime someone pulls into the parking lot. The thing that was awesome about this was the fact that the people holding the flags were really old. The hilarious thing about it was the fact that there was about twenty hispanic people standing on the side of the road trying to get some work... Everytime someone would think about picking one of the hispanic people up, they would be attacked by three senior citizens waving huge american flags in their face!

American Flags: $20, Senior Citizens: 80 Years, Seeing old seniors wave flags in peoples faces for trying to pick up illegals: Priceless

[liv2drift045]

lmao thats awesome

[BustedS13]

so did the old people want to go hang sheet rock for less than minimum wage? or am i missing something....

[Mlogue84]

so did the old people want to go hang sheet rock for less than minimum wage? or am i missing something....

It was more the fact that it was hilarious rather than logical. Although, if you'd like to get on the subject... I think that it is horrible that this kind of thing is accepted. THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!! Go to any other country and try this... not gonna happen.

[FaLKoN240]

I predict this thread will get locked.

[C. Senor]

^lol....i second that opinion.

[eastcoastS14]

yeah dude you fail....funny observation, but can we please not start another immigration thread on zilvia....

[Mlogue84]

yeah dude you fail....funny observation, but can we please not start another immigration thread on zilvia....

That wasn't what I was trying to do, so sure.... I'm done.

[azndoc]

Good initiative, bad judgement.

[Walperstyle]

one of the main reasons why the us economy is not getting better is because of the exploting of cheap labor.

Honnestly, the youth of the US needs to get a job, and the government needs to stop doing business with china. Oh, and the 800+ billion dollars on the military expenses was a little crazy.

Everyone expects to live rich lives, uses credit cards like crazy...

your country is ass backwards (not everyone, I have plenty of friends that have a straight head, but man, many people live beyond where they should)

[bamaboy]

one of the main reasons why the us economy is not getting better is because of the exploting of cheap labor.

Honnestly, the youth of the US needs to get a job, and the government needs to stop doing business with china. Oh, and the 800+ billion dollars on the military expenses was a little crazy.

Everyone expects to live rich lives, uses credit cards like crazy...

your country is ass backwards (not everyone, I have plenty of friends that have a straight head, but man, many people live beyond where they should)

What the fuck are you talking about? Last time I checked, the youth of the United Fucking States was carrying the main part of the load of the expenses of this country. Big Countries do big thangs, China is exploding economically and we need to keep that business relationship. 800+ billion dollars on the military, if that keeps us from getting bitch slapped around by other countries, let's spend more. I argree about the credit card thing, but other than that, you should probably go practice your hockey before you make comments like that.

[bamaboy]

so did the old people want to go hang sheet rock for less than minimum wage? or am i missing something....

people who pay less than minimum wage should go do the work them damn selves. cheap labor breeds greed and slavery. I work with hispanics all day, we pay them fair, they are legal, and they work their ass off, they are never late, and they always do what they are supposed to. Plus I get free spanish lessons

[cgtdream]

yeah right..watch the news bama boy..dony know if ya noticed, but that is where half the problem lies, err with the youth i mean.....jobless rate continues to rise, there arent as many "kids" graduating college and filling in the jobs that require ppl of some education, which means that they have to go elswhere to get the workers that they need just to run there company..reasons like that is why a certain car manufactuer built a new factory in the states, and then hired hundreds of workers from japan to work there?OH and ont forget the fact that at the ages of 15/16, instead of getting a real job like at mc'donalds, they decide, or better yet, there parents decide that they should give them some money so that they can buy that cell phone, learn about money through a credit card, or go and buy them everything that they want....and because of such, illegals come in and take those jobs the youth arent filling in, but that is a whoe nother story..... lol youth like me are lazy blind and dumb, and would rather live with there parents, join the military because they now carry a twisted sense of partiotism, or get a job to get by so that they can purchase more crap for there 240's or buy that bling bling you see in so many (c)rap videos..dont know about you, but america is fuked up just like every other country, and can easily explain why we are always behind the curve when it comes to the workings of the world....and btw, for a country thats only 200yrs old, we cant say shit to those countries such as china thats been around alot longer than we ever have...oh and as far as the illegals go, holy shit do more to help the economy than anything else.....we just need to give them citizenship, tax there butts, and watch the economy do better....

So who do i blame realistically...ummm the government and sorry ass parents, who parent very horribly...the end ^_^

[ctm_motortrends]

What a lot of people don't understand is that most of these worker don't take anything for your goverment and still get taxed. They do jobs that no one else wants to do for wages that no other person would work for. If it was up to them they would become U.S. citizens follow your rules and still help our growing Nation. Lets not talk about the war anyone who thinks this war is cool and that were over there kicking ass is wrong. 100's of white,black,hispanics and other nationalitys are losing there life for what so we don't get bitch slapped !! Your president knew this was going to happen he is still make a profit of this war. This is not worth so many life's. Remeber you don't laugh a the guy doing your taxs or sending you bills why laugh at the guy cutting your grass or washing your car. Let's treat everyone fair. We were all once new to this country and we are trying to make it better.

[HalveBlue]

I think it's great that the youth of America are discussing this topic and all, but fuck, some of you fools need to seriously invest yourself in learning grammar and understanding sentence structure before typing up your opinion.

In a debate, presentation is just as important as substance.

With the way some of you write I'd be hard pressed to to bother reading, much less accepting, your opinions.

[C. Senor]

^lol i had to re-read some of those sentences....being that english is my second language...lol. but blah blah blah. theres too may different topics that have to be taken in account to even begin to just undertand everything that is part of this situation, let alone discuss in a proper, adult manner. someone says one thing then someone else mentions something else. if you guys want something to talk about.....talk about how nice pearl mint green is or something. theres only one topic..you like it or you dont. easy enough.

[Ikant]

"patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" -oscar wilde.

[Mlogue84]

I think it's great that the youth of America are discussing this topic and all, but fuck, some of you fools need to seriously invest yourself in learning grammar and understanding sentence structure before typing up your opinion.

In a debate, presentation is just as important as substance.

With the way some of you write I'd be hard pressed to to bother reading, much less accepting, your opinions.

hahahaha!!! You said but fuck!! ....I'm just playin.

Remeber you don't laugh a the guy doing your taxs or sending you bills why laugh at the guy cutting your grass or washing your car. Let's treat everyone fair.

That's actually a good point....But there are ways to do things legally. We welcome everyone to have citizenship, you just have to show a little effort and determination. I know a lot of people look down on homeless people and deem them lazy because they look for the easy way out. It's almost the same thing. I have nothing against the hispanic community, nor the illegals, but I think they should show a little respect and support for the country supplying them with freedom and a way to provide for their families (legal or not). I have plenty of hispanic friends and some of their parents did come over illegally, but now they are going for their citizenship, and because of that I respect them very much.

[Baka Sama]

I think that it is horrible that this kind of thing is accepted. THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!! Go to any other country and try this... not gonna happen.

I bet if I went to Mexico or Canada I could easily get a job. So why cant they come here and work? I bet if Canadians started crossing the border like Mexicans no one would have a problem with it. Its not an issue of if theyre illegal or not, its an issue of their race. Nine times out of ten its not the asian americans complaining, its not the black americans nor latin americans complaining, its the white americans complaining. Afraid they're gonna lose "their" country they rightfully stole to yet another ethnic group. Its not like their flying from another country, theyre walking here. Walking to find a better life for you and your family. How can something so simple cause so much hate in people. If the roles were reversed everyone here would do the exact same.

Fuck it, Im gonna find me a hot ILLEGAL Mexican mama and marry her just to spite this dumb country.

[Baka Sama]

I have plenty of hispanic friends and some of their parents did come over illegally, but now they are going for their citizenship, and because of that I respect them very much.

Which ALL Mexicans would do im sure if they had the chance.

[Mlogue84]

Which ALL Mexicans would do im sure if they had the chance.

Why don't they have the chance?

I bet if I went to Mexico or Canada I could easily get a job. So why cant they come here and work? I bet if Canadians started crossing the border like Mexicans no one would have a problem with it. Its not an issue of if theyre illegal or not, its an issue of their race. Nine times out of ten its not the asian americans complaining, its not the black americans nor latin americans complaining, its the white americans complaining. Afraid they're gonna lose "their" country they rightfully stole to yet another ethnic group. Its not like their flying from another country, theyre walking here. Walking to find a better life for you and your family. How can something so simple cause so much hate in people. If the roles were reversed everyone here would do the exact same.

Fuck it, Im gonna find me a hot ILLEGAL Mexican mama and marry her just to spite this dumb country.

I got this from a google search..

Q. How can I get a permit or visa to work internationally?
From Kathleen Crislip,
Your Guide to Student Travel.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
A. Need to work during your student travel? Lots of students plan to pay for travel with a job abroad -- it's a great way to immerse yourself in a culture and stash some bucks for your next trip leg.
If you will work for food in foreign climes, know that you'll need a work visa issued by the country in which you're working. If you're working abroad through one of many professional student work exchange programs, your work permit will be arranged for you. If you've arranged an internship on your own, this company can help arrange a work visa for you. Need to get a work visa on your own? Read on.


What is a visa?

What You Need to Get an International Work Visa

In many cases, you need a job offer in another country before that government will issue you a work visa. To get to that country and find a job, you'll need to do some travel planning and get a passport. You will also need a letter from your future employer eventually -- best if you get that letter before you leave home. It can help if you have a physical address in your destination country, too.
How to get a passport
Plan your student travel
Find student lodging (get a physical address in advance!)

Finding Student Jobs Abroad

You can work abroad as a nanny or aupair, a waiter, a baker or a candlestick maker. Choose the place you want to be and check out what's available.

Look for student jobs abroad by country
Canada is a wonderful place to try working internationally for the first time -- get your traveling feet wet while staying in an English-speaking country. The Canadian government helps you get a six-month work visa through the Canadian SWAP (students working abroad program).

How to work in Canada with SWAP

Getting an international work visa on your own

If you have a skilll, direct employer contact is often the easiest way to find a job abroad. If you're interested in, say, working in a bike shop as a bike mechanic while you're visiting Germany, then you'll have to do some legwork. Find a potential employer (an Internet search turned up many German bike shops with web presences) -- contact a few bike shops before you leave the States and if one owner agrees to hire you, he or she will send a letter to you and the correct documentation to the German government, and you'll be issued a work visa. Generally, permits issued this way are valid for a set amount of time and you must be on your way home when yours expires.

I chose bike shops as an example because I owned a bike shop in Steamboat Springs, Colorado - primo destination for student travelers from other countries -- and I received requests like this all the time. I hired student travelers, too -- I preferred hiring workers who had a plan for a place to live as I knew they wouldn't be forced to leave for lack of housing... it's in cases like this that you'll be glad of physical address in your destination country.

Some countries are reluctant to issue a work permit if the country believes its own citizens can fill the job(s) for which you're looking with skilled natives (like mechanics) -- if you're a kangaroo trainer, for instance, consider applying with a zoo in Rome rather than Sydney. (Speaking of Sydney, Australia has a great work visa for which you can apply if you're between 18 and 30 which allows you to work and play in Australia for up to a year.)


Working Abroad as a Volunteer

Most credible volunteer programs have permission to use volunteer workers in the countries in which work is being done. As long as you're being paid by the volunteer outfit (payment includes any money the company gives you, like a Peace Corps housing stipend) and not by a resident of the country, you needn't worry about having a work permit. If you're not being paid at all (and with most volunteer programs, you are actually paying the company for the privilege of volunteering), a work visa is not an issue.
Read a student travel volunteering overview and see some student travel outfits resources worth checking out.

i-to-i Volunteer Vacations
Worldwide Volunteer Networking Service
Habitat for Humanity

What Will Happen to Me if I Work Without a Visa?

In some countries, like the UK, you may be refused entry if you land at the airport with a work plan and no visa. In others, you may be sent straight home, if not fined or even jailed (albeit briefly). You'll certainly have no government recourse if your foreign employer refuses to pay you or mistreats you in some work-related way. Don't work without a visa -- it's asking for trouble you don't need.
Good luck and enjoy!

....eat shit

Just in case you're still interested...
Go here for more info on work visas, In and Out of Mexico and Canada.

http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html

[Baka Sama]

What Will Happen to Me if I Work Without a Visa?

In some countries, like the UK, you may be refused entry if you land at the airport with a work plan and no visa. In others, you may be sent straight home, if not fined or even jailed (albeit briefly). You'll certainly have no government recourse if your foreign employer refuses to pay you or mistreats you in some work-related way. Don't work without a visa -- it's asking for trouble you don't need.
Good luck and enjoy!

....eat shit

Wow your so smart... Im not talking about flying to a foriegn country to work. Im talking about walking 2 miles to have a better life for your family. The UK is not part of America, Mexico is. Theyre not traveling here for fun cause they like the wheather, theyre coming here to escape poverty. Obviously their president nor ours cares about them, so they have to take matters into their own hands. If you were mexican you would do that same. When Bush finally passes his bill to join mexico and canada to the US all this crap will be solved.

[Mlogue84]

Read it again, I edited it with more info at the end.

I'm not tryin to start shit because it really doesn't bother me that much. It's not really effecting me at all as of right now. I think that if we allowed them here a little easier then they would be more apt to support this country.

[Baka Sama]

Imagine you are born in a small village and grow up with little education. You live in a household with an average of 7-10 people. All you see around you is poverty. Your government is so corrupt theyre not gonna do anything about it. Everytime you turn on a TV you see the life styles of the weathly country right next to you. Fancy cars, nice houses, hell even their dogs are taken of better than you! So what do you do? Try to move there legally... that doesnt work. Your getting older, you have a wife now and shes expecting. Your children cannot grow up like this.. what do you do? Anyone who says they would stay there and deal with it is fucking lying to themselves. The problem doesnt lie with the people looking for a better life, it lies with thier government. Help Mexico so that its people will not need to leave.

[steve shadows]

one of the main reasons why the us economy is




It's called a labor surplus. coupled with inflation and we've got a party

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by: Baka Sama
When Bush finally passes his bill to join mexico and canada to the US all this crap will be solved.

:ugh: Ok... what? First I've heard of this.

If it's actually true, please explain.

[Mlogue84]

Imagine you are born in a small village and grow up with little education. You live in a household with an average of 7-10 people. All you see around you is poverty. Your government is so corrupt theyre not gonna do anything about it. Everytime you turn on a TV you see the life styles of the weathly country right next to you. Fancy cars, nice houses, hell even their dogs are taken of better than you! So what do you do? Try to move there legally... that doesnt work. Your getting older, you have a wife now and shes expecting. Your children cannot grow up like this.. what do you do? Anyone who says they would stay there and deal with it is fucking lying to themselves. The problem doesnt lie with the people looking for a better life, it lies with thier government. Help Mexico so that its people will not need to leave.

I agree that it sucks, and you have a good point, but you have to weigh in the consequences... If your wife is pregnant, you didn't plan for the future. If you're in a country where you know it's illegal for you to be there, why would you risk everything you have, including your wife and soon to be born child just for a life of riches and wealth? Who says you have to stay in the ghettos of mexico? I've been to plenty of nice places in mexico, work there. You're right, there is no fucking way i'd stay in that situation, that's just dumb. So I would try everything in my power to provide a better life for my child, But I wouldn't risk not being there for them.

[Mlogue84]

:ugh: Ok... what? First I've heard of this.

If it's actually true, please explain.

These are two articles I found reguarding what I think baka is talking about...

http://www.newswithviews.com/Mason/rusty2.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59180-2005Mar23.html

[santacruisin]

Let me guess, the old people waving the flags were white. Am I right?

[steve shadows]

Let me guess, the old people waving the flags were white. Am I right?

no they were hispanic and the people waiting for jobs were white

[Mlogue84]

One was an african american woman, the other two were white males.

[steve shadows]

one was optimus prime the others were teletubbies

[exitspeed]

one was optimus prime the others were teletubbies

Optimus would smash illegals in the face. He wouldn't stand for that shit. :bigok:

Please don't pink me.

[steve shadows]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqN-mbPP5Qs

[bamaboy]

I bet if I went to Mexico or Canada I could easily get a job. So why cant they come here and work? I bet if Canadians started crossing the border like Mexicans no one would have a problem with it. Its not an issue of if theyre illegal or not, its an issue of their race.

You know what, you seem so informed that I would like you to answer a question for me; What is the general opinion of most people, blacks, whites, asians, etc., about people of spanish decent?

It's that they are hard ass workers. Nobody is against them because of their race, are you kidding me? I am only against illegals because of the burden they put on the economy and the people who get rich off of their cheap labor. I would rather see all of them here working legally, for fair money, and contributing to the economic success of this country versus adding to the economic problems.

I didn't quote it but to whoever said they are being taxed anyway, please explain how the fuck that works. You can't pay taxes if you are an illegal dumbass, that would require a social security number. Illegals are paid in cash. Most people don't know also that when people are paid in cash the cities lose out twice because employers have to match the amount that the worker pays in taxes for state and city taxes. This becomes an attractive way for business owners to get out of paying additional taxes.

[ranger240]

"patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" -oscar wilde.

The Rock's a kick ass movie, but not a source from which to gain quotes that impress your buddies

[ctm_motortrends]

You know what, you seem so informed that I would like you to answer a question for me; What is the general opinion of most people, blacks, whites, asians, etc., about people of spanish decent?

It's that they are hard ass workers. Nobody is against them because of their race, are you kidding me? I am only against illegals because of the burden they put on the economy and the people who get rich off of their cheap labor. I would rather see all of them here working legally, for fair money, and contributing to the economic success of this country versus adding to the economic problems.

I didn't quote it but to whoever said they are being taxed anyway, please explain how the fuck that works. You can't pay taxes if you are an illegal dumbass, that would require a social security number. Illegals are paid in cash. Most people don't know also that when people are paid in cash the cities lose out twice because employers have to match the amount that the worker pays in taxes for state and city taxes. This becomes an attractive way for business owners to get out of paying additional taxes.


Just to let you know about 75% of illegals who work in CA alone work with fake SS numbers which mean they get taxed, All these work agencies know this and don't care. Everyone who has ever worked in a warehouse here knows that. So yes Dumbass they do pay taxes and most don't get shit back at the end of the year like you do.

[santacruisin]

Optimus would smash illegals in the face. He wouldn't stand for that shit. :bigok:

Please don't pink me.

FUCK YOU!! Optimus Prime IS an illegal immigrant. Green Card from Megatron? Yeah Right! He should be the posterchild for the immigration movement!

[Baka Sama]

http://shop.wnd.com/store/images/items/B0160.jpg

[ctm_motortrends]

What are we fighting for ???????

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tWD16s5Uaxg

[C. Senor]

good lord why cant anyone face the fact that columbus accidently immigrated to this country, the puritans illegally immigrated to this country..the fuckin ancient chinese civilizations illegally immigrated to north america, the spanish illegally immigrated here, most european descents just floated over here and just signed up, so when they were coming here they were going to be..GOING TO BE, so you dont misconstrue that, illegal immigrants until, they were allowed to sign up for citizen ship. countless middleastern descent illigally immigrated over here.......so what does that mean.......there has always been illigal immigration..there will always be illegal immigration. if you dont like people working illegally....take your lazy complaining asses off your chair and help them get their damn papers PERIOD

[bamaboy]

take your lazy complaining asses off your chair and help them get their damn papers PERIOD
Last time I checked there wasn't shit you could do unless you own a business and you choose to sponsor them.
You are also talking about a time when there was no structure to civilization and there was no economy to worry about. If you are going to chime in, at least be reasonable and don't be a dick.

[bamaboy]

Just to let you know about 75% of illegals who work in CA alone work with fake SS numbers which mean they get taxed,
please let me in on the place where you are locating your statistics

[MELLO*SOS]

@Mlogue84

I think you confused patriotism with passive-aggressive racism perpetrated by the elderly... IMO A true patriot would have be waving the flag in the face of the corrupt political, religious and corporate leaders who wreak the greatest havoc on society anymore. Patriot stands up to oppressors and proudly says "look, you are betraying these colors and what they stand for and have always stood for: freedom, peace and prosperity. You should be ashamed.". Xenophobic-Patriot says, "Those people are different, they smell funny and I think they're probably all here illegally. Lets deport them!"

What did the elderly really accomplish that day? That kind of bizarre xeno-patriotism doesn't do anyone any good. Actually it seems to follow the mentality of these abortion-clinic bombers/protesters have, "maybe if we intimidate enough people the problem will just go away!". I guess it really depends on what your definition of "patriotism" is. I just don't find that kind of behavior the least bit patriotic or beneficial for anyone. Except maybe those who share hatred towards "illegal immigrants"... Which unfortunately seems to be defined as anyone looking of Hispanic decent. We should make another thread, what does patriotism mean to you?

[ctm_motortrends]

Mello88 Very good post. Were are all patriot in our own way lets just keep it clean..Hasta La Victoria Siempre. We can all make this place better we just have to try and not look at the color of the skin but what the person is all about.

[C. Senor]

Last time I checked there wasn't shit you could do unless you own a business and you choose to sponsor them.
You are also talking about a time when there was no structure to civilization and there was no economy to worry about. If you are going to chime in, at least be reasonable and don't be a dick.

no i was referring to when people said that they should become citizens...because to become a citizen you have to take english classes and one of verious basic training courses so that you have some kind of skill. and what does it take to take classes....time. now what does this have to do with anything.....well it is a matter that they dont have time. why because they are working..illegally as it may be, it's still time they dont have time. they are the people on the corner of freeways selling fruits, they are on street corners selling fruits, they are the walking ice cream men that are walking the whole day...yes from like 8 in the morning till like 8 at night. so that means they have no time to take classes because they need the money. so now what can you do to help....give them money so they can take the time to go to class so they can become a citizen. and yes there was structure to civilization...oh what we forgot about the indiginous people of this country. iirc from history class they have a structure, methods governments, societies....or what they were just animals..wait animals have socieities and leadership structure so even if you called them animals there would still be structure. also iirc from history the english immigrants had a form of economy. america did not invent economy nor did it invent structure..nor was it the first to put it into practice. for it was already in practice in some way by the time immigrants came to this country. it may not have been like what we have now, but relatively speaking it would have been the same. so like my other post said...dont speak unless you know everything, granted i am speaking now and no i dont know everything. so i guess i'm speaking against myself in that reason, but is only in response to you. and am i being reasonable....i gave an option, not a demand i did not say hey you fuck tard go give them money and support them through the whole thing or i'll stab you. and dont you dont know me so dont call me a dick. you probably dont even know my name...i dont just go around calling you a dick now do i? that's it i'm done, if someone wants to have a discussion about this i will more than happily meet with you, we can go to city hall get some pamphlets, go to the library get some info, talk to people like illegal immigrants get their view talk to elderly people get their view, and from knowing all sides and come to a reasonable well understood conclusion...all of this of course without calling eachother dicks. unless we become friends and can do so laughingly. so bamaboy, do me a favor have a pleasant evening and dont forget to have a coke and a smile.

[Mlogue84]

@Mlogue84

I think you confused patriotism with passive-aggressive racism perpetrated by the elderly... IMO A true patriot would have be waving the flag in the face of the corrupt political, religious and corporate leaders who wreak the greatest havoc on society anymore. Patriot stands up to oppressors and proudly says "look, you are betraying these colors and what they stand for and have always stood for: freedom, peace and prosperity. You should be ashamed.". Xenophobic-Patriot says, "Those people are different, they smell funny and I think they're probably all here illegally. Lets deport them!"

What did the elderly really accomplish that day? That kind of bizarre xeno-patriotism doesn't do anyone any good. Actually it seems to follow the mentality of these abortion-clinic bombers/protesters have, "maybe if we intimidate enough people the problem will just go away!". I guess it really depends on what your definition of "patriotism" is. I just don't find that kind of behavior the least bit patriotic or beneficial for anyone. Except maybe those who share hatred towards "illegal immigrants"... Which unfortunately seems to be defined as anyone looking of Hispanic decent. We should make another thread, what does patriotism mean to you?

Xen·o·pho·bi·a:
An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

Pa·tri·ot·ism:
Love of and devotion to one's country.

Let's create a conjunction... Xenophobic-patriotism

That is quite the display of sesquipedalianism. I believe congratulations are in order.

And as far as stereotypes are concerned, I hate them too but such is life.

[C. Senor]

lol @ sesquipedalianism.....it's funny how they used a word to express it's own definition.

[bamaboy]

Dick I used to work for a staffing agencie I know what goes on in these companys. I have had deal with bad paper work , bad people and have had to keep my mouth shut. No trying to be a dick but this is what happens in Ca. I don't know what goes on in Alabama and I am pretty sure no one cares.
I guess I should have worded it like this, just because that's how your experience with illegals was doesn't mean that it is a reflection of the bigger picture . I'm not claiming to be an expert on the illegal immagration in this country, but I have been exposed to enough of it to have formed a decently informed opinion. I know many business owners who are trying to operate legally without the help of illegal workers and they are barely staying in business because of the contractors who employ 80-90% illegals.

I wasn't calling anyone an animal, I have respect for native americans,but when they had control over this land there wasn't much going on in the form of progress. I think they did get the shaft when we, eastern european settlers, decided we wanted this land. This situation is so much more complex than most of us can imagine and I know that there isn't an easy answer, but someone is going to have to come up with a plan and follow it through soon.

[exitspeed]

let's try and keep this more civil guys or I'm going to hand out more neg rep. Premie or not.

Oh and Optimus knows how to speak English, and is Red, White, and Blue and becasue of his advanced ways to be able to communicate with our cmputers he was approved for a Visa before he even landed on Earth.

I'm joking about this of course.

[exitspeed]

no i was referring to when people said that they should become citizens...because to become a citizen you have to take english classes and one of verious basic training courses so that you have some kind of skill. and what does it take to take classes....time. now what does this have to do with anything.....well it is a matter that they dont have time. why because they are working..illegally as it may be, it's still time they dont have time. they are the people on the corner of freeways selling fruits, they are on street corners selling fruits, they are the walking ice cream men that are walking the whole day...yes from like 8 in the morning till like 8 at night. so that means they have no time to take classes because they need the money.

That is a choice. They can choose to make time to take those classes. What you are saying is an excuse.

[santacruisin]

let's try and keep this more civil guys or I'm going to hand out more neg rep. Premie or not.

Oh and Optimus knows how to speak English, and is Red, White, and Blue and becasue of his advanced ways to be able to communicate with our cmputers he was approved for a Visa before he even landed on Earth.

I'm joking about this of course.

There's no white on optimus prime, only chrome and polished silver. What about bumblebee? Denied a Visa b/c he's yellow? And that one with the tape deck in his chest, you can't understand wtf he's saying, it could be any language.

Transformers are illegals. This is no joke.

[exitspeed]

There's no white on optimus prime, only chrome and polished silver. What about bumblebee? Denied a Visa b/c he's yellow? And that one with the tape deck in his chest, you can't understand wtf he's saying, it could be any language.

Transformers are illegals. This is no joke.

Hi symbol's are white and so are the stripes on his arms. But this is a really dumb argument. :fawkd:

http://www.action-hq.com/store/images/Revoltech_OptimusPrime.jpg

[axiomatik]

Illegal immigrants aren't coming here illegally just because they are too lazy to do it the proper way or to learn english or they don't have the time. Most people seem to think that all a potential immigrant has to do is fill out a few forms, wait a little bit, and then share in the riches of America. That is not how it works. The US limits the number of people who can immigrate each year (a few hundred thousand a year). Out of this entire quota, no more than 7% can come from one country. According to this website (http://www.kkeane.com/quota-faq.shtml), that translates to 25,620 people per year. So that means that no more than 25,620 Mexicans can legally immigrate to the US each year. Current estimates put the illegal population at around 15 million. Let's assume 60% of those came from Mexico (who knows what the real number, but it seems realistic), that's 9 million Mexicans. If they all chose to come to the country legally instead of illegally, at 25,620/yr, it would take 351 years!. How many of you could wait that long?

Let's say you're a poor, uneducated farmer living in a dirt-floor shack in rural Mexico. You have a wife and a child. If the growing season goes well, you will make $2 a day and you'll at least have enough food so that you won't have to go to bed hungry every night, but even then, you'll only be able to afford to eat meat once a week, so you're still borderline malnourished. If the growing season is bad, you'll make $1/day and you'll barely be able to get by eating one meal of oats a day. You can't exactly afford condoms or birth control, because you can barely afford to eat, so you know you'll end up with more kids to feed. They will grow up in the same impoverished village you did, only go to school for 5 years until you have to pull them out to help work the fields, and then live the same dirt-poor life you did.

Or, you could apply to legally immigrate to the US, hope you get accepted 20 years from now (which isn't even very likely because you're poor, uneducated and can't speak English). So you get accepted in 2027 and immigrate to America. But 3 of your kids are already 18, so they can't join you, and all of your kids are uneducated because they grew up in the same village you did and you had to pull them from school at age 10 to help work the fields, so they don't even have a very bright future, even in America. Fingers-crossed for your American grandkids, though. The grandkids in Mexico will be out of luck though.

Or, you could run across the border (which is neither cheap, nor easy, nor safe) knowing that you can get a job that will pay many times what you are making now. Your kids will go to an American school, maybe on to college, guaranteeing them a much better life than you have lived. Plus, any kids born in America are automatically American citizens, so they never have to worry about being deported back to the dirt-poor village you came from.

What would you choose?

That page I linked above is interesting reading. Gives you an idea of how hard it is to come from a country where a lot of people want to immigrate. If you're coming from Italy where way less than 25,000 people immigrate each year, then yeah, it isn't too hard. But if you are coming from a 3rd world country, good luck.

[swiftdrift]

no they were hispanic and the people waiting for jobs were white

haha ya legal hispanics with citizenships and illegal euro's!

but ya, I'm very proud of my culture and their struggles here in the U.S. These people are coming to this country knowing the consequences and penalties they could suffer, and are still making a struggle and hussle for work. They may not be fortunate enough to get a minimum wage paying job, but whatever theyre doing... theyre busting their asses. I've seen too many beggers and homeless that actually have the opportunity to work a minimum paying job LEGALLY, and still do not take initiative.... thats what sickens me.

[exitspeed]

Illegal immigrants aren't coming here illegally just because they are too lazy to do it the proper way or to learn english or they don't have the time. Most people seem to think that all a potential immigrant has to do is fill out a few forms, wait a little bit, and then share in the riches of America. That is not how it works. The US limits the number of people who can immigrate each year (a few hundred thousand a year). Out of this entire quota, no more than 7% can come from one country. According to this website (http://www.kkeane.com/quota-faq.shtml), that translates to 25,620 people per year. So that means that no more than 25,620 Mexicans can legally immigrate to the US each year. Current estimates put the illegal population at around 15 million. Let's assume 60% of those came from Mexico (who knows what the real number, but it seems realistic), that's 9 million Mexicans. If they all chose to come to the country legally instead of illegally, at 25,620/yr, it would take 351 years!. How many of you could wait that long?



One day I'll be able to go out and buy exactly the car I want with cash. That's one of my goals. It's going to take a lot years of hard work though. I wasn't born into a rich family, but my wife and I have strived for a better life. Everyone has to start somewhere and work your way to were you want to be.

I guess I could just go steal a car though. I mean why wait? If it's OK for someone not to do what they need to do to come here legally then why should I even bother working hard so I can earn something legally?

I've said this before when we have had these threads (that always end up the same way), and I'll say it again. Come here, start a new life, legally and work your ass off. Wonderful. Glad to have you on board. Here's a job.

But this person wants to IMMEDIATELY to break the law to start this new life.

I've said this before too: That's like starting your new life with you wife, and fucking one of the bridesmaids in the bathroom during the reception.

I'm all for immigration because this country was founded on it. Do it legally though. That's all I ask. If you can't, then you can't. Same as I can't afford to buy a $100,000 car and you don't see me stealing one.

[Baka Sama]

One day I'll be able to go out and buy exactly the car I want with cash. That's one of my goals. It's going to take a lot years of hard work though. I wasn't born into a rich family, but my wife and I have strived for a better life. Everyone has to start somewhere and work your way to were you want to be.

I guess I could just go steal a car though. I mean why wait? If it's OK for someone not to do what they need to do to come here legally then why should I even bother working hard so I can earn something legally?

I've said this before when we have had these threads (that always end up the same way), and I'll say it again. Come here, start a new life, legally and work your ass off. Wonderful. Glad to have you on board. Here's a job.

But this person wants to IMMEDIATELY to break the law to start this new life.

I've said this before too: That's like starting your new life with you wife, and fucking one of the bridesmaids in the bathroom during the reception.

I'm all for immigration because this country was founded on it. Do it legally though. That's all I ask. If you can't, then you can't. Same as I can't afford to buy a $100,000 car and you don't see me stealing one.

That has to be the dumbest analogy I have ever heard. Please go back to school and pay attention this time! How can you compare moving to america illegally for a better life to stealing a car??? :confused:

More like a poor person steals a bunch of seeds from a wealthy farmer who only gives out a few free seeds a year. The person takes the stolen seeds and plants a vineyard to feed his family and provided a better life for his kids. Does that person deserve to go to jail for what he did? Keep in mind that it takes alot of work and determination for the vineyard to grow.

[mRclARK1]

Immigration should always be done legally. No exceptions. But don't go hating on people who do so illegally in an attempt to only improve there lives and feed there wife/husband and/or children. Really it's ridiculous to deny someone food and the basics of life because they don't have "papers." I'm not saying I think illegals should be allowed to stay, but would it really be too hard for average every day Americans to help them out (IE give them some contract work just between you and them, maybe help a little bit with paying some fees they can't afford so they CAN be legal) instead of just coming down on them like they're here comitting terrorist acts or something? Just my opinion. lol

That's just a band aid solution though. The real fix is to fix the root of the problem, and that means changes have to be made in places like Mexico. Some of them have to be willing to fight for a better life, and changes, at home.

[Mlogue84]

That has to be the dumbest analogy I have ever heard. Please go back to school and pay attention this time! How can you compare moving to america illegally for a better life to stealing a car??? :confused:

More like a poor person steals a bunch of seeds from a wealthy farmer who only gives out a few free seeds a year. The person takes the stolen seeds and plants a vineyard to feed his family and provided a better life for his kids. Does that person deserve to go to jail for what he did? Keep in mind that it takes alot of work and determination for the vineyard to grow.

I'm sorry if you have trouble corelating the analogy to the same scenerio on a larger scale... perhaps YOU are the one that needs a little more education.

And yes, that person should be jailed or fined... Have some integrity! The poor farmer should instead ask the wealthy man if he could have a few more seeds to feed his family. Just because it takes a professional theif a couple of months of planning to sucessfully rob a bank doesn't mean he deserves the money, does it?

[Mlogue84]

That's just a band aid solution though. The real fix is to fix the root of the problem, and that means changes have to be made in places like Mexico. Some of them have to be willing to fight for a better life, and changes, at home.

I think this is the best solution yet....

[exitspeed]

That has to be the dumbest analogy I have ever heard. Please go back to school and pay attention this time! How can you compare moving to america illegally for a better life to stealing a car??? :confused:

More like a poor person steals a bunch of seeds from a wealthy farmer who only gives out a few free seeds a year. The person takes the stolen seeds and plants a vineyard to feed his family and provided a better life for his kids. Does that person deserve to go to jail for what he did? Keep in mind that it takes alot of work and determination for the vineyard to grow.

Sorry, if it was a little over your head. Analogies aren't your strong suit huh?

And to answer your second question, yes. It's stealing. Even if it is a lot of work, you stole something illegally to get to where you are. You could have very well saved up for longer and bought those seeds. But you are now a criminal instead.

You ever hear the phrase "the best things come to those who wait?". It's ture. You are rewarded by being patient and doing things the right way.

[Baka Sama]

I think this is the best solution yet....

You mean the same thing I said on the first page?

The problem doesnt lie with the people looking for a better life, it lies with thier government. Help Mexico so that its people will not need to leave.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mlogue84 you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple. You say all this crap because you just like I, were lucky enough to be born here. If you were mexican your story would be alot different.

I bet you are mad at the African slaves for illegally running away to escape to a new life. How could they do that? I mean... All they had to do was just sit there and wait it out right?


Robin Hood was a hero for robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. I guess he wasnt mexican though. I say to all mexicans... Your freedom is just over the border... Its yours...Take it!!

http://www.tamut.edu/academics/mperri/Mex/bandera.jpg

[axiomatik]

One day I'll be able to go out and buy exactly the car I want with cash. That's one of my goals. It's going to take a lot years of hard work though. I wasn't born into a rich family, but my wife and I have strived for a better life. Everyone has to start somewhere and work your way to were you want to be.

Sorry, but that's a terrible analogy. First of all, you actually do have the opportunity to achieve that goal. For these immigrants, there are so many people who want to immigrate, and so few slots, that it is virtually impossible for them to immigrate legally. They are probably better off playing the lotto than trying to get in. Secondly, buying your dream car doesn't (I'd hope) condemn you, your family, your grandkids etc to a lifetime of poverty, crime and disease.

BTW, by Mexican standards you were born to a rich family.


More like a poor person steals a bunch of seeds from a wealthy farmer who only gives out a few free seeds a year. The person takes the stolen seeds and plants a vineyard to feed his family and provided a better life for his kids. Does that person deserve to go to jail for what he did? Keep in mind that it takes alot of work and determination for the vineyard to grow.

This is a perfect analogy. Even then, it's more like picking up the seeds that fell on the rich farmer's floor. The rich farmer probably never would have bothered picking them up, but technically it is stealing.

And yes, that person should be jailed or fined... Have some integrity! The poor farmer should instead ask the wealthy man if he could have a few more seeds to feed his family. Just because it takes a professional theif a couple of months of planning to sucessfully rob a bank doesn't mean he deserves the money, does it?

Tell you what, renounce your citizenship, move to Mexico and then just write Bush a letter asking him to let you in. Let me know how that goes.

[exitspeed]

Sorry, but that's a terrible analogy. First of all, you actually do have the opportunity to achieve that goal. For these immigrants, there are so many people who want to immigrate, and so few slots, that it is virtually impossible for them to immigrate legally. They are probably better off playing the lotto than trying to get in. Secondly, buying your dream car doesn't (I'd hope) condemn you, your family, your grandkids etc to a lifetime of poverty, crime and disease.

BTW, by Mexican standards you were born to a rich family.



See, that is how you reply (unlike Baka).

OK, maybe the analogy is off. What I'm getting at though is there is an opportunity for these people to go through the process legally, yes it's a long time, but it's there. In the meantime, you don't have the right (hense why it is illegal) to break the law to get what you want.

The analogy is true as far as getting what you want and going about it in the proper way. Wouldn't you agree on that?

[Evil240]

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/060712phoenix.htm
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/070501newark.htm
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/070427dallas.htm

the first one alone... 2.9 million dollars.... wow

I work with a lot of NRA (non resident alien) accounts, with about 98% of them are either structuring cash or evading taxes or they are used for straw purposes....

[ALTRNTV]

The root of the problem lies within the country they are illegally emigrating from (as was said before).

[Mlogue84]

You mean the same thing I said on the first page?

Mlogue84 you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple. You say all this crap because you just like I, were lucky enough to be born here. If you were mexican your story would be alot different.

I bet you are mad at the African slaves for illegally running away to escape to a new life. How could they do that? I mean... All they had to do was just sit there and wait it out right?

Robin Hood was a hero for robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. I guess he wasnt mexican though. I say to all mexicans... Your freedom is just over the border.[/IMG]

First of all, I didn't say that mRclARK1 was the only one to suggest this solution so don't get jealous. If you thought of it as well, Then good job you get a pat on the back too.

Secondly, You can't compare slavery with illegal immigration, they both suck and should have never happened.

Lastly, I don't like RobinHood...

[Mlogue84]

Tell you what, renounce your citizenship, move to Mexico and then just write Bush a letter asking him to let you in. Let me know how that goes.

See, now that is mixing things up... It should be more like writing a letter to the Mexican government and asking for a solution, or better yet starting a revolution all by myself.

[Baka Sama]

Secondly, You can't compare slavery with illegal immigration, they both suck and should have never happened.

You wish illegal immigration never happened? Illegal immigration IS America.

[Mlogue84]

On a more serious note, I'm actually kinda glad this thread turned out the way it did. I actually learned some things, I put myself in their shoes and now I have a different outlook on immigration (legal or not). A lot of people brought up some really good points and analogies and I'd like to thank all of you. I still frown upon illegal immigration but I'm not quite the aggressor that I used to be. I really wish that it was easier for third world countries to immigrate here, Mexico in particular. But the truth is it probably won't be anytime soon, So until then i wish the best to those fighting for survival in a country who doesn't give a shit about them.

[Mlogue84]

You wish illegal immigration never happened? Illegal immigration IS America.

No, I wish that it never had to be deemed "illegal", Also that Mexico would help their struggling citizens.

[exitspeed]

No, I wish that it never had to be deemed "illegal", Also that Mexico would help their struggling citizens.

There's a lot of things people wish weren't illegal. If things weren't illegal our civilization would have ended long ago. Laws are in place for a reason. Some are more necessary then others, but most are very necessary, like immigration laws.

[Mlogue84]

... Good point

[Mlogue84]

@ Evil240

Those are some crazy stats.

[santacruisin]

Hi symbol's are white and so are the stripes on his arms. But this is a really dumb argument. :fawkd:

http://www.action-hq.com/store/images/Revoltech_OptimusPrime.jpg

don't gimme that bullshit. You put those stripes on with MS Paint :fawk2:
http://www.toybin.org/cache/1984/Autobots/Commander/Optimus%20Prime/480_robot.jpg

[ctm_motortrends]

On a more serious note, I'm actually kinda glad this thread turned out the way it did. I actually learned some things, I put myself in their shoes and now I have a different outlook on immigration (legal or not). A lot of people brought up some really good points and analogies and I'd like to thank all of you. I still frown upon illegal immigration but I'm not quite the aggressor that I used to be. I really wish that it was easier for third world countries to immigrate here, Mexico in particular. But the truth is it probably won't be anytime soon, So until then i wish the best to those fighting for survival in a country who doesn't give a shit about them.


Good Point. Having a different outlook and putting yourself in other peoples shoes makes you think very different. I am sorry that this topic pisses some people off but understand lots of times this hits a little to close to home. I was born in California both my parent came here illegal busted the asses and became US citezens. It was not easy but they did it, Also it upsets me when people take advantage of this country and it upsets me when this country take advantage of the people here. Good Luck to everyone trying to make a better life for themself..

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

EZLN

[bamaboy]

I think this is the best solution yet....I agree with you 100% here, but that's not our fight to start, but I think we should help if it came down to it.
That has to be the dumbest analogy I have ever heard. Please go back to school and pay attention this time! How can you compare moving to america illegally for a better life to stealing a car??? :confused:

More like a poor person steals a bunch of seeds from a wealthy farmer who only gives out a few free seeds a year. The person takes the stolen seeds and plants a vineyard to feed his family and provided a better life for his kids. Does that person deserve to go to jail for what he did? Keep in mind that it takes alot of work and determination for the vineyard to grow.you my friends are an idiot, that analogy makes perfect sense. A crime is a crime. If what you are saying is the solution, we should open up the border and say fuck it, here's the country we've worked hard to build and paid our taxes to fund, but you can have it, and while you are here, go ahead and do what the fuck you want because you are poor. While we are at it, let's send the Navy to all the poor African, Middle Eastern, South American, Asian, and European countries and bring them here too. Fuck it, let's go get the eskimos, maybe some former Soviet Union citizens need some help too, you know since we have so much space and money........ sounds like a good idea huh, you driving? I knew I wasn't already paying enough for taxes and social security.

[axiomatik]

Several people have said it's wrong because it's breaking the law. And that a law is a law, even is it means a better future for their families. But how many people here strictly obey the speed limit? The speed limit is a law that is just as legitimate. By the same logic, you should get a ticket for exceeding the limit by just one mph. The limit is clearly posted, we all know the law, all we have to do is lift our foot a fraction of an inch, and yet we still break the law every day and hope we don't get caught doing it. And why do we speed? Not to provide our families a better future, but in order to get to the mall 45 seconds sooner.


you my friends are an idiot, that analogy makes perfect sense. A crime is a crime. If what you are saying is the solution, we should open up the border and say fuck it, here's the country we've worked hard to build and paid our taxes to fund, but you can have it, and while you are here, go ahead and do what the fuck you want because you are poor.......

that's pretty much what we did up until about a hundred years ago, well, except that it was limited to white europeans. If you could get here, you were let in.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Most of us were just lucky enough that our families got here before they started restricting it. Our wealthy, powerful country was built upon the backs of poor immigrant laborers. America used to be known as the land of opportunity, now it's the land of the gated community. "We got here first (kinda), stay out"

I knew I wasn't already paying enough for taxes and social security.

Actually, most illegal immigrants do have to pay taxes and especially social security. They have to supply a SSN to be hired, and then have SS taken from their paychecks. However, they are unable to collect social security benefits, so they directly help keep Social Security afloat. That is another way that illegal immigrants benefit us.

[Baka Sama]

I dont think your gonna break through to bamaboys close mindedness. Everyone has the right to their own opinion

[axiomatik]

I dont think your gonna break through to bamaboys close mindedness. Everyone has the right to their own opinion

eh, all I can do is present my side of the argument.

Hi symbol's are white and so are the stripes on his arms. But this is a really dumb argument. :fawkd:

http://www.action-hq.com/store/images/Revoltech_OptimusPrime.jpg

what's the deal with that toy? he doesn't even have wheels! :ghey: And the windshield looks retarded. Can it even transform? it doesn't look like it. Lame.

http://www.ultimatetoys.com.my/new/Transformers/TakaraMP01/Takara%20MP01%20Optimus%20Prime%201.jpg
http://www.ultimatetoys.com.my/new/Transformers/TakaraMP01/Takara%20MP01%20Optimus%20Prime%202.jpg

much better.

[brokenben]

I usually don't respond to these things, simply to avoid being lumped into the anti-immigration crowd that sputters nothing but racism and fallacies, but I actually have very strong opinions against illegal immigration.

axiomatic, you mentioned that the majority of illegal immigrants pay their taxes because they use fake social security numbers? how do we know this?
where do these fake social security numbers even come from? I'm not positive how the system works, but I'm pretty sure they have to be attached to a name... of somebody that is legal to work in the US. Whose credit are they using with those numbers? Now, if it is just a random number they made up, (again, I honestly dont know how it works) how can you verify that they paid their taxes?

Regardless, the majority is very uneducated, has limited employment options and will never make more than 15 dollars an hour (pure statistics) and will more than likely be a net consumer of government dollars throughout their lifespan. I know, I know, they don't get SS benefits, but if they get robbed, the police still come to help them right? If they get hit by a car, they still get a ride to the hospital, and then their bills written off because they don't have insurance and they dont have any money to pay the hospital. Have you seen stats on how much illegal immigration has cost the health care system and ultimately, tax dollars, in Los Angeles county alone?

I appreciate your logical arguments though, axiomatic. Again, I'm happy to argue points with anybody, as long as they play by the rules.

[HalveBlue]

Brokenben has brought up some good points.

Unless, someone can show me some concrete numbers that prove the positive or negative benefits of illegal immigration I'll continue to sit on the fence. Both sides make compelling arguments and I myself feel torn on the issue.

To all those saying illegal immigration is breaking the law, and that's that, ask yourselves, why is illegal immigration illegal? Unless someone can give me some concrete reasons it's seems more or less arbitrary. That'd be like the government randomly outlawing pink shirts. If history is anything to go by, immigration laws have more to do with xenophobia than any real economic or social justifications.

The best thoery I can come up with as to why immigration should be regulated is this (bear with me, the analogy is a little odd): a country (any country) is like a type of container. This container has a finite volume. Also, this container represents all public and private services. Now fill this container with water (people). If too much water flows into this container eventually the capacity has been exhausted. The overflow represents people that can no longer be serviced by the private and public infrastructure.

Illegal immigration represents an overflow of people using finite resource within a given area.

Now, I don't know if this is actually the case. But it is the only sensible explanation I can see for the regulation immigration.

And yes, it's much easier for someone from the developed world to immigrate into the US than someone from the Third World. I know this from personal experience.

On one hand I feel for Third Worlders coming to this country illegally to seek a better life. If I was in their shoes I'd probably do the same thing. On the other, they're just escaping their problem, not solving it.

As some members have already mentioned, the best way to fix immigration is to fix Mexico. But that's easier said than done, isn't it?

I don't know, I guess I just wanted to provide some input, even if I don't have the exact solution.

[bamaboy]

I dont think your gonna break through to bamaboys close mindedness. Everyone has the right to their own opinion
hahahaha closed mindedness huh, maybe you missed the part where I said that I work side-by-side with legal immigrants everyday who have done the work and made the sacrifice to be here. My question to you is how are we supposed to support every single person who wasn't born here just because they want to come here. We may have took this land from the Native American's, but we did fight for our freedom from England a la Revolutionary War. If these countries are so bad and these people are so repressed then they need to liberate them selves or at least make an attempt. I can't help where people are born or what kind of life they are born into. I was born very poor to a single mother and at more than 1 time was a resident of a housing project as a child. My mother did what it took to get us out of there and guess what, she never broke a law. I now do whatever it takes for me to not be in those positions, and guess what, that's right, I don't break the law.

To the speeding analogy, we all speed, but when you get caught you have to pay the fine or go to jail. Sounds fair to me!!!!

[bamaboy]

Brokenben has brought up some good points.

Unless, someone can show me some concrete numbers that prove the positive or negative benefits of illegal immigration I'll continue to sit on the fence. Both sides make compelling arguments and I myself feel torn on the issue.

To all those saying illegal immigration is breaking the law, and that's that, ask yourselves, why is illegal immigration illegal? Unless someone can give me some concrete reasons it's seems more or less arbitrary. That'd be like the government randomly outlawing pink shirts. If history is anything to go by, immigration laws have more to do with xenophobia than any real economic or social justifications.

The best thoery I can come up with as to why immigration should be regulated is this (bear with me, the analogy is a little odd): a country (any country) is like a type of container. This container has a finite volume. Also, this container represents all public and private services. Now fill this container with water (people). If too much water flows into this container eventually the capacity has been exhausted. The overflow represents people that can no longer be serviced by the private and public infrastructure.

Illegal immigration represents an overflow of people using finite resource within a given area.

Now, I don't know if this is actually the case. But it is the only sensible explanation I can see for the regulation immigration.

And yes, it's much easier for someone from the developed world to immigrate into the US than someone from the Third World. I know this from personal experience.

On one hand I feel for Third Worlders coming to this country illegally to seek a better life. If I was in their shoes I'd probably do the same thing. On the other, they're just escaping their problem, not solving it.

As some members have already mentioned, the best way to fix immigration is to fix Mexico. But that's easier said than done, isn't it?

I don't know, I guess I just wanted to provide some input, even if I don't have the exact solution.

You sound like an educated and reasonable person and your analogy is very good.
Here is an example of how immigration affects people. I don't remember the city but it was in North Carolina. About 3 years ago there was a large surge in immigrants moving into this one upper middle class town. (If anyone remembers this please chime in.) 100% of the new immigrants in this town were of middle eastern decent. Because these people had immigrated legally the community was forced to just deal with them. Here's the negative. Because of their legal status, they were able to receive all of the government assistance programs such as food stamps, W.I.C., housing, and medicaid. Over a 2 year span this area seen somewhere around 5,000 of these immigrants relocating to their area. The residents of this town were forced to absorb the costs of these services through their property taxes, which rose over 500%. Fair or not.

[Baka Sama]

I usually don't respond to these things, simply to avoid being lumped into the anti-immigration crowd that sputters nothing but racism and fallacies, but I actually have very strong opinions against illegal immigration.

axiomatic, you mentioned that the majority of illegal immigrants pay their taxes because they use fake social security numbers? how do we know this?
where do these fake social security numbers even come from? I'm not positive how the system works, but I'm pretty sure they have to be attached to a name... of somebody that is legal to work in the US. Whose credit are they using with those numbers? Now, if it is just a random number they made up, (again, I honestly dont know how it works) how can you verify that they paid their taxes?

Regardless, the majority is very uneducated, has limited employment options and will never make more than 15 dollars an hour (pure statistics) and will more than likely be a net consumer of government dollars throughout their lifespan. I know, I know, they don't get SS benefits, but if they get robbed, the police still come to help them right? If they get hit by a car, they still get a ride to the hospital, and then their bills written off because they don't have insurance and they dont have any money to pay the hospital. Have you seen stats on how much illegal immigration has cost the health care system and ultimately, tax dollars, in Los Angeles county alone?

Nice point.. I work in the health care field (Im at work right now in th ER ^_^) and I experience 1st hand how hospitals are affected. Let me tell you their bills DO NOT get written off! They pay their bills just like you and I with SSN or not. Dont get me wrong there are ways of getting around it and it is costing hospitals alot to treat them, but they dont get a free ride just cause they dont have a ssn. The records department tracks people down to pay their bills! lol They have their ways :coolugh:


If they are made citizens then they will have to pay taxes right? Win win for everyone

[Baka Sama]

hahahaha closed mindedness huh, maybe you missed the part where I said that I work side-by-side with legal immigrants everyday who have done the work and made the sacrifice to be here. My question to you is how are we supposed to support every single person who wasn't born here just because they are already here. We may have took this land from the Native American's, but we did fight for our freedom from England a la Revolutionary War. If these countries are so bad and these people are so repressed then they need to liberate them selves or at least make an attempt. I can't help where people are born or what kind of life they are born into.

The United States are the world police. It is their job to care. Atleast for countries who we share a great partnership with.

[brokenben]

Nice point.. I work in the health care field (Im at work right now in th ER ^_^) and I experience 1st hand how hospitals are affected. Let me tell you their bills DO NOT get written off! They pay their bills just like you and I with SSN or not. Dont get me wrong there are ways of getting around it and it is costing hospitals alot to treat them, but they dont get a free ride just cause they dont have a ssn. The records department tracks people down to pay their bills! lol They have their ways :coolugh:


If they are made citizens then they will have to pay taxes right? Win win for everyone

Well, you know better than I when it comes to the medical field, so I can't argue that point except I'm sure that it is very possible for them to just simply not pay the hospital ....along with any legal person that does not have insurance.

If they are made citizens, it brings on a whole different set of issues. If we make them legal, what's to stop the tens of millions of others from running across to wait for the next amnesty bill to come up? What effect will come from instantly throwing 12 million people into our already dying social security system? A premier republican think tank (i think it was FAIR or CIS, I'll have to go back and check) estimated that each illegal immigrant will cost the government an average of 500k each over the course of their life.. assuming they pay all their taxes, and make an average of 15 dollars an hour. (a fair estimate, given the average education level.)

And just very quickly... just as food for thought.. after they are made citizens, do we really think they'll want to keep working for minimum wage doing jobs that "Americans won't do" or will they leave that for the next batch of illegal immigrants?

[Baka Sama]

Im actually "alt tabing" between Zilvia and some guys medical info with no ssn right now lol. Maybe I should really be doing some work.... nah.

Help Mexicos economy.... its the only real solution. Everything else is just masking the problem

[HalveBlue]

Im actually "alt tabing" between Zilvia and some guys medical info with no ssn right now lol. Maybe I should really be doing some work.... nah.

Help Mexicos economy.... its the only real solution. Everything else is just masking the problem

Mexico's economy doesn't need help. Mexico is an insanely rich country. The problem is that the wealth in the country isn't distributed very well.

[brokenben]

Plus Mexico's immigration laws are pretty crazy. They don't allow you in, unless you actually benefit their economy. Crazy!

[4thHorse]

The use of the stolen SS nubers is very real, It happens all the time. They get paid and taxed like you and I, but don't file for return in April. The problem is people like my friend now get audited by the IRS, because unknown the them, someone used there SS number and the IRS wants that money. Now they have to pay legal fees just to prove that some one stole their SS number. Little medical clinics and labs are broken into all the time and people think it is someone looking for drugs, but it is records with SS numbers that they can sell for a higher price. My wife's work had this happen and thats how my buddy who is getting audited had his stolen.

As far as the main topic goes, I'm on the fence. We have the Great wall of USA being built so they will just do what the illegal Asians do, take a boat. They could also try to perfect the human sling shot like in mythbuster.

[punkz]

Looks like the immigration bill that was going through Congress was turned down - http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/07/congress.immigration.ap/index.html . I don't believe that just because you are here now right at this time illegally that you can just get amnesty and become a citizen, it's just not fair for the people that have gone through the rough and long task of actually coming here legally. You're here ILLEGALLY, whether you are for a good cause like helping your family, you are breaking a law of the country. Is it a fair law? Is it stupid? Depending on who you ask the answers vary but no matter what it is still a law of the country. I don't care what country your from or what race you are so just because the majority are Hispanic does not mean I'm biased against them.

Immigration is def. one of the hottest subjects out there today. So many opinions out there about what to do to handle it. I know I don't have the answer, hell, I don't believe anybody does.

First there needs to be changes in the home countries of most of the illegal immigrants. Easier said then done yeah, but changes are not done instantly and are not solved by the countries citizens running to another country and not trying to improve on what they have. Like somebody said, Mexico is a very resource rich country with a lot to offer, however it's sad the the corrupt government and the small percentage of people with money twist it and force the general populace to live in sub-par conditions.

Another process that needs to be fixed and streamlined is the process of actually becoming a U.S citizen. I for one do not know of the full process to go through but a few friends of mine who's parents are illegal and now trying to become legal state it's def. no walk in the park and is not cheap either. Somebody can correct on me on this since I'm 100% sure on the processes, just that it can and should be made easier.

Sorry if I kind of rambled on and made no sense, I just wanted to add a hopefully coherent post to a good debate :)

[4thHorse]

Well before i married my wife she became a citizen the legal way. She did the whole took the tests, back gound check, swearing in and paid the money. She went to visit her parents in PI and when she came home there was a letter waiting for here. It said she did her citizenship 1 year to early and that she would have to do it again. Even with the letter she had to take the test,back gound check, swearing in and pay again. Fixing and streamlining is an under statement.

[brokenben]

It wasn't turned down yet, but that was a crucial indicator on whether or not it would pass. It means that there are enough people that are unhappy with the bill as it stands to not pass it. That was just essentially to end all of the amendments that are being brought up.

[bamaboy]

Help Mexicos economy.... its the only real solution. Everything else is just masking the problem

American corporations are already doing that, oh yeah, that is how millions od Americans are losing their decent jobs. Good point!!!!

[punkz]

Well before i married my wife she became a citizen the legal way. She did the whole took the tests, back gound check, swearing in and paid the money. She went to visit her parents in PI and when she came home there was a letter waiting for here. It said she did her citizenship 1 year to early and that she would have to do it again. Even with the letter she had to take the test,back gound check, swearing in and pay again. Fixing and streamlining is an under statement.

Wow, sorry to hear that she had to go through all of that a second time.

It wasn't turned down yet, but that was a crucial indicator on whether or not it would pass. It means that there are enough people that are unhappy with the bill as it stands to not pass it. That was just essentially to end all of the amendments that are being brought up.

Thank you for the correction. I read through the article to fast and now see that though the bill has not be completely turned down, it has taken a big bow towards being passed.