Base timing 24degrees?! can't be right

[ApexRK]

Figured I'd start a new thread on this since its a new issue.

So my car had been running like ass ever since I got it, always seemed low on power, bogging like the timing was retarded. Its a S14SR, stock with 8-9psi.
I had the base timing set at 15 as per the FSM procedure, but in order to get this setting the CAS was in the fully retarded position or close to it, cranked fully counterclockwise. THinking that's not right I adjusted it to around the middle which is were I could see the original indentation from the washer and now the car is awesome, pulls hard just like it should be. Came back home and hooked up the timing light and the base timing is at 26degrees or so after the quick adjustment, I re-did the timing adjustment and ended up setting it at around 24, but that can't be right. I know I don't feel any knock and the car feels great, but 24degrees base timing is far from the stock 15.

Can anyone explain to me why this is? Is this safe running 94octane?

[Cashizslick]

Interesting issue.

It seems like you know how to accurately check timing . . i doubt you are measuring things incorrectly.

Maybe your car is just 'different'?

You also said in another thread that it looked as if the timing had been set to around 26 deg. in the past . . .

[ApexRK]

Interesting issue.

It seems like you know how to accurately check timing . . i doubt you are measuring things incorrectly.

Maybe your car is just 'different'?

You also said in another thread that it looked as if the timing had been set to around 26 deg. in the past . . .

Its the mark from the washers on the CAS from where it was probably adjusted years ago, like there is minor corrosion, but none where the washer was so I put it to that spot and it happened to be around 26degrees, maybe even a bit more...its hard to tell for sure once your past the 20degree mark.

[SlowCoupe]

how are you reading the timing? where are you getting the signal from?

[ApexRK]

timing light using the wire loop behind the valve cover, no other way to check it with out logging software.

[cotbu]

timing light using the wire loop behind the valve cover, no other way to check it with out logging software
Not true! pull signal wire back from harness, and use high tension wire blah blah.

Are you in timing mode?

[ApexRK]

When adjusting the timing I'm in the timing mode. I don't just pull the TPS and time it, I go thru the FSM procedure to do it. When I check the timing like i did this afternoon I just check it and its still the same as I set it before like it should be.

[GhostofAkina]

Can't you also set it using a wire running between the the spark plug in cyl. 1 and the coil pack? Thats how I've seen most people say to set the timing. Personally thats how I set mine to 15 deg. I know that when I've clipped the timing light to the wire loom it is very different from the reading you get off the first plug wire even though technically shouldn't it read exactly the same? I've heard of "timing mode" before too but I've heard different ways to get it into timing mode i dont know which to believe. A link would rock.

[cotbu]

Alot of times, FME when Idle is to high during timing you end up with the wrong timing. Whats your Idle RPM and What was it when you set timing?

Timing mode:IIRC, engine is at operating temp, Idle below 1000rpm, tps disconnected, rev engine 3 times, to about 3krpm also rev to 3krpm 3x when you set timing before tps get plugged back in.

Can't you also set it using a wire running between the the spark plug in cyl. 1 and the coil pack?
That's the hight tension wire method that I blah blahed up there.

[ApexRK]

my idle just under 1000rpm

The FSM method is hold RPM at 2000 or less for 2mins, left idle or 1min. shut engine off, disconnect TPS, start engine, rev to over 2000rpm 3 times....then you are in timing mode, set timing, shut engine off, connect TPS, start engine and recheck timing.

[cotbu]

If, thats what you've been doing, then try my method.
If, you need help bringing your idle down first, we can start there.

Once you find a method that works for you, you'll find yourself doing it more and more often.

[johngriff]

I think it starts advancing about 950 r's, so if you are right on that line, you are probably getting into the advance map.

Feeling knock is not the same as detonating, which you probably wont notice.

If it will not idle lower, use the IACV adjustment nut/screw to drop the timing down during the procedure. You should only need to do this ONCE, to Factory Setting. Anything else is crap.

But the obvious should be the cas cranked all the way, if it is off 1 tooth, it will run like hell, so i am guessing you just have the r's up too high when setting base.

When setting up a haltech, I set base off of the starter motor: Fuel pump fuse pulled, tps disconected, and hold the starter down, painting the light on the crank. Works fantastic. I should try setting it like that on the factory ECU, then checking using FSM.

[ApexRK]

That makes sense about my idle being too high and getting into more advanced timing. I have the IACV screw all the way in and still the lowest it goes to with the TPS disconnected is 950-1000, I take it there is some amount of idle adjustment on the TB?

Normally my idle is at around 800.

[sr20boostn20]

not to thread steal but im having a similar problem, i have a power fc and right now base timing is 15 deg while idling at 1000 rpms, but my screw on the cas is all the way at the bottom. and at wot it pulls 40-42 deg. if i make a correction on the power fc it pulls less timing out at wot but then it wont idle.

right now the power fc is set to +/- 0 on the igniton correction and timing is 15 deg. can i change the timing on the cas than adjust the timing at idle using the ignition correction.

aslo is there a timing mode with the power fc.

[johngriff]

That makes sense about my idle being too high and getting into more advanced timing. I have the IACV screw all the way in and still the lowest it goes to with the TPS disconnected is 950-1000, I take it there is some amount of idle adjustment on the TB?

Normally my idle is at around 800.

Definately. If you still cannot get a lower idle, You could play with the legnth of the IACV hose. But it sounds like you have a leak after the TB otherwise.

not to thread steal but im having a similar problem, i have a power fc and right now base timing is 15 deg while idling at 1000 rpms, but my screw on the cas is all the way at the bottom. and at wot it pulls 40-42 deg. if i make a correction on the power fc it pulls less timing out at wot but then it wont idle.

right now the power fc is set to +/- 0 on the igniton correction and timing is 15 deg. can i change the timing on the cas than adjust the timing at idle using the ignition correction.

aslo is there a timing mode with the power fc.

It sounds like you need your car setup. Ignition correction will always "REMAIN" at 0 because this is just a rough correction tool.

The cas setup needs to be done correctly. The timing dislplayed by the commander may not be the actual timing of the engine because it may be calibrated incorectly.

Information on doing this is in this thread.

After you do this, do a search for the Enthalpy PFC ign base map. Everyone seems to love this, so yeah, add it to you pfc. 20deg adv will make it idle much better.

[UNISA JECS]

The most overlooked problem with high idle when trying to set timing is the IACV and most people revert to cleaning it which may work for some people, but the under lying problem is the solenoid pluger "spring" becomes weak over time and cannot push the plunger against the seat anymore, there is a way to remove the epoxy seal and shim the spring to make it seat firmly again or just buy a IACV-AAC assembly.

[ApexRK]

I looked at the TB at lunch and the small adjustment screw for the throttle linkage has about 3 threads of movement so that there will let me lower the idle. It may have been adjusted by the previous owner.
The IACV was cleaned not long ago and it was really not dirty at all.

I'll try to fiddle with the idle tonight after work and report back.

[ApexRK]

ok guys, I checked the timing again tonight, once I got into timing mode with the TPS unhooked my idle was actually good, 800revs so i lowered it down to 750 and still the base timing is 24degrees. And just to give you an idea i turned the CAS fully counter clockwise and it went down to 10degrees+, wouldn't go any lower. Right now at 24degrees its about 1/3 from fully counter clockwise.

Again the car runs great, but I worry I am harming it....but if I go to the factory 15degree spec it runs like ASS.

Anymore input?

[SlowCoupe]

timing light using the wire loop behind the valve cover, no other way to check it with out logging software.

Many have issues getting the signal like this.

the solution is to get a spare spark plug wire and pull the coil pack out. attach one end of the spark plug wire to the spark plug and the other end attach into the coil where the spark plug would go. now clamp that spark plug wire to get your signal.

report back to us when you try that out.

[johngriff]

I think that might be it, just the pickup.

[ApexRK]

I'll give that a try.

[ApexRK]

I finally had the chance to redo the timing using cyl#1 as the signal pickup. Rather than use a spark plug wire I just hooked it up to the harness for coil#1 and it worked fine. Turns out the base timing was not 24 degrees, but rather 5 degrees. I adjusted it to 15 and all is good now, car feels great, so much more power compared to before, like day and night.

I really appreciate the help guys, the last thing I would have ever thought was the timing signal loop being inaccurate.

[SlowCoupe]

Glad I can help. No biggie bout the rep points.

[johngriff]

It is weird, and I do not know if the argument can be made for it being the loop either, rather than the pickup on each different gun.

I use an older digital craftsman gun, and get no changed between the loop, or jumping plug wire.