PW: Democrats sign Surrender Papers

[RJF]

House Passes War Spending Bill That Includes Iraq Pullout Timeline
Wednesday, April 25, 2007

WASHINGTON —

A sharply divided House brushed aside a veto threat Wednesday and passed legislation that would order President Bush to begin withdrawing troops from Iraq by Oct. 1.

The 218-208 vote came as the top U.S. commander in Iraq told lawmakers the country remained gripped by violence but was showing some signs of improvement.

Passage puts the bill on track to clear Congress by week's end and arrive on the president's desk in coming days as the first binding congressional challenge to Bush's handling of the conflict now in its fifth year.

"Our troops are mired in a civil war with no clear enemy and no clear strategy for success," said House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer.

Republicans promised to stand squarely behind the president in rejecting what they called a "surrender date" handed to the enemy.

"Al-Qaida will view this as the day the House of Representatives threw in the towel," said Rep. Jerry Lewis of California, ranking Republican on the House Appropriations Committee.

The $124.2 billion bill would fund the war, among other things, but demand troop withdrawals begin on Oct. 1 or sooner if the Iraqi government does not meet certain standards. The bill sets a nonbinding goal of completing the troop pull out by April 1, 2008, allowing for forces conducting certain noncombat missions, such as attacking terrorist networks or training Iraqi forces, to remain.

House and Senate appropriators agreed to the legislation earlier this week. The Senate was expected to clear the measure Thursday, sending it to the president.

While Bush was confident the bill would ultimately fail because Democrats lacked the two-thirds majority needed to override a veto, he kept up pressure on lawmakers. On the same day as the House vote, the president dispatched his Iraq commander, Gen. David Petraeus, and other senior defense officials to Capitol Hill to make his case: Additional forces recently sent to Iraq are yielding mixed results and the strategy needs more time to work.

Petraeus told reporters sectarian killings in Baghdad were only a third of what they were in January, before Bush began sending in additional U.S. forces. He added that progress in the troubled western Anbar province was "breathtaking," and that he thought Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was "doing his best" at leading the country.

But "the ability of al-Qaida to conduct horrific, sensational attacks obviously has represented a setback and is an area in which we're focusing considerable attention," Petraeus said.

Petraeus said he would not touch on the "minefield of discussions about various legislative proposals," but he noted that the new strategy in Iraq was just beginning. He said he planned to provide more details in early September.

Petraeus briefed his findings to lawmakers in a private room, where protesters outside chanted "Troops home now!" Republicans and Democrats alike emerged to say Petraeus had only confirmed their positions.

"This briefing reinforced our view that the solution in Iraq is a political solution," Hoyer, D-Md., told reporters. Also confirmed, he said, was "our belief that we must hold the Iraqis accountable for achieving real progress."

Rep. John Boehner of Ohio, the House Republican leader, said Petraeus acknowledged there were challenges. "But considering where we are, I think the general feels good about the progress thus far," Boehner said.

Bush said he stands firm on his latest strategy for winning the war and dismisses as counterproductive the Democratic call for withdrawal.

"That means our commanders in the middle of a combat zone would have to take fighting directions from legislators 6,000 miles away on Capitol Hill," Bush said this week. "The result would be a marked advantage for our enemies and a greater danger for our troops."

Petraeus' comments Wednesday put a finer point on when the much-awaited decision about the length of the U.S. troop buildup may come, saying he will make an assessment of the conditions in Iraq in early September, and report back to Defense Secretary Robert Gates and other military leaders.

Gates has said he expects the assessment this summer, but this is the first time military leaders said it would not be until September.

[mrmephistopheles]

Much as I want us to stay there and finish the job, the Iraq war is turning into our modern Vietnam (without the horrific bodycount on our side).
The fact is, while Republican windbags can whinge about a withdrawal date being a surrender date, we will never achieve any ultimate victory over terrorism. The only way I can foresee a permanent end to terrorism is either a complete police state where ALL movement is controlled, etc or simply a world without humans. Obviously the 1st situation would likely lead to greater rebellion anyway, so that's fairly null.

I'm all for stopping terrorism, but I think we should worry about our own land. One could argue that by fighting terrorism abroad, we're preserving our way of life, but how is that way of life preserved when we're losing our rights in the process?

Death isn't a threat to terrorists. They accept the imminence of death when they decide to commit terrorism. More effort should be made
to communicate with them, establish that Islam isn't a religion that centers around hate for others, that America is not inherently evil, and that killing innocent people is a fruitless act of barbarism.

It's going to take cooperation and understanding between the US and ALL the muslim nations of the world for this to occur, and even then we'll have difficulty, because it's a matter of to what degree people will trust their government. Diplomacy instead of bombs is the best recourse (not necessarily fastest) in terms of getting countries to outlaw terrorism and hunt down terrorists within their borders.

In the end, no matter how many Talibans, or Al Qaedas we eliminate, there will ALWAYS be more to replace them. Until we can eliminate the ignorance that breeds this intolerant cowardice, we will always be battling it.

Maybe we should send textbooks to some of these places. Terrorists can't use them against us, and they can only provide positive results (even as kindling).

[screaming6]

^^^well said....ku

[AJ1356]

the thing is not a matter of surrender or a matter of win or loose any more. it is easy for people of say keep the trrop there, here is a question how many of them served in Iraq or Afghanistan? I served in both and i say what every troop wants to say, bring them home alive not in body bags! this whole adventure was for the wrong reasons. it was managed wrong from the begining. we went there without a plan - we had a great plan of how to invade and conquer the country but there was NO plan on how to handle things afterwards- that is why this whole thing failed. there is no winning this war, the only reason people are fighting is not cause they hate eachother it si becasue most are not represented in the government and they fight cause they want basic ameneties that they no longer have since we bombed everything. and what was left over the suicide bomber keep blowing up. gas prices keep going up american popularty is declining. us being there is not helping anything, specially since we have retards incharge. here is a fact no known to common civilians. the only people stayed in the military after the invation was the ones who were shitbirds and could not do anything else besides the military. there is why the troops there are acting retarded.

[Wahl 136]

Much as I want us to stay there and finish the job, the Iraq war is turning into our modern Vietnam (without the horrific bodycount on our side).
The fact is, while Republican windbags can whinge about a withdrawal date being a surrender date, we will never achieve any ultimate victory over terrorism. The only way I can foresee a permanent end to terrorism is either a complete police state where ALL movement is controlled, etc or simply a world without humans. Obviously the 1st situation would likely lead to greater rebellion anyway, so that's fairly null.

I'm all for stopping terrorism, but I think we should worry about our own land. One could argue that by fighting terrorism abroad, we're preserving our way of life, but how is that way of life preserved when we're losing our rights in the process?

Death isn't a threat to terrorists. They accept the imminence of death when they decide to commit terrorism. More effort should be made
to communicate with them, establish that Islam isn't a religion that centers around hate for others, that America is not inherently evil, and that killing innocent people is a fruitless act of barbarism.

It's going to take cooperation and understanding between the US and ALL the muslim nations of the world for this to occur, and even then we'll have difficulty, because it's a matter of to what degree people will trust their government. Diplomacy instead of bombs is the best recourse (not necessarily fastest) in terms of getting countries to outlaw terrorism and hunt down terrorists within their borders.

In the end, no matter how many Talibans, or Al Qaedas we eliminate, there will ALWAYS be more to replace them. Until we can eliminate the ignorance that breeds this intolerant cowardice, we will always be battling it.

Maybe we should send textbooks to some of these places. Terrorists can't use them against us, and they can only provide positive results (even as kindling).

Well said, lets not forget the 100 billion dollar budget that was sent to congress just for the war. :tweak:

[CKAMC]

I will keep my input simple.

send this and get working on 2/3's if you really want this to happen democrats... by the looks of it you have your work cut out for yall.

Don't forget that there are an additional 100,000 mercenaries over there that bush has hired at 30k a month.

I frankly do not like any bit of this administration, Alberto Gonzales is one of the fines examples of bush trying to under mind and become dictator of this country. "I do not recall" my ass!

I think we can learn a lot from united emirates, hell dubai is a mini New York and they aren't under attack(by terrorists)... geez I wonder how they do it.

time for the US to step back and re-think our approach on the middle east, the current one is a failure!

[mRclARK1]

In the end, no matter how many Talibans, or Al Qaedas we eliminate, there will ALWAYS be more to replace them. Until we can eliminate the ignorance that breeds this intolerant cowardice, we will always be battling it.

Well said... this is a battle of ideologies. I really don't see this ending ever; it's just the latest fighting in a war dating back thousands of years IMO.

But, I agree with my late grandfather (a war veteran as well)... people today don't have the stomach for war. Even if it is necessary, most of the free world has forgotten what that freedom cost and has become complacent in protecting it and doing there part to keep it. They just want to enjoy it... they don't want to fight for it.

[McRussellPants]

commitment in the usa has an 8 year shelf life, later iraq.

[mrmephistopheles]

Well said... this is a battle of ideologies. I really don't see this ending ever; it's just the latest fighting in a war dating back thousands of years IMO.

But, I agree with my late grandfather (a war veteran as well)... people today don't have the stomach for war. Even if it is necessary, most of the free world has forgotten what that freedom cost and has become complacent in protecting it and doing there part to keep it. They just want to enjoy it... they don't want to fight for it.


This is utter and complete truth. Given the human cost from the US perspective, this is NOTHING, compared to wars past. Technology has given the general public the perception that there should be NO human loss on our side, and that any deaths are completely unjustifiable. This is not the case. War is hell, and people die.

Given that nearly 60000 US servicemembers died in Vietnam over a 9 year period, we're not even coming close to that, with 3,332 dead in 5 years (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/tollofwar/tollofwarmain.html). Hell, in the 4 years of the Korean war, we saw ~37,000 US servicemembers die. I'm not even going to mention WWII.
Freedom is something to be taken lightly or for granted.

Yes, it's something most of us are born into, but we're privileged to have been born in a part of the world that happens to be at that given time.

[RJF]

I frankly do not like any bit of this administration, Alberto Gonzales is one of the fines examples of bush trying to under mind and become dictator of this country. "I do not recall" my ass!

This is an example of how the Kool-Aid drinkers parrot the "party-line"

How is this an example of trying to become a dictator? Does the fact that Clinton and every other president removed every US Attorney when they took office. President Bush kept the majority of Clinton's appointees on and made changes gradually.

How about former presidents like Carter and Clinton going and making speeches overseas bad-mouthing the United States? You don't think that causes problems.

Nancy Pelosi violating the Logan Act and negotiating with the terrorist state of Syria.

This whole Iraq vote is nothing but an attempt to undermine the President's authority and usurp the Constitution. He is the Commander in Chief and has the right to direct the war. Also, why isn't it made fully public that the votes to pass this bill were "bought" with billions of dollars of pork, such as subsidies for those states whose congressmen were sitting on the fence.

Bottom line is this is all part of the Democrat 2008 Presidential campaign and they will do whatever they can to make sure we don't win the war, because if we succeed, President Bush was right and they'll have a harder chance to take back the White House.

[OptionZero]

Here's my biggest beef:
We got enough support for the war to fight it, but not enough to win it.
When I read about troops dying because they weren't given properly armored transports, or body armor, or ammo, or whatver...it makes me sick.
We are the motherfuckin United States. We're about to break out viable RAIL GUNS, soon to install ENERGY WEAPONS on our fighters, invest shitloads in robotic gear to "unman" the frontlines...

And along the way someone forgot to take care of our actual troops. Thats pathetic.
We are the United States. If a goddamn soccer mom can buy a Hummer to go to the grocery store, our armed forces should be able to properly equip theirs for battle.

I won't pretend to be an expert, I'm not in the armed forces, nor am I in the know about the intricacies of winning the war, but this divide is pissing me off.

If we were going to go to war, then everyone in the fuckin country should be behind winning it. Going to war with even 49% of the homelands pissed off about it is stupid. If we were going to war, we go in with the proper planning and equipment to do the job.

If we aren't prepared to make the effort to win- don't fight.

This halfway bullshit is just sending troops to die while politicians debate.

[cdlong]

troops have been properly equipped for quite a while now. i was in Iraq in the summer of '06 and we had plenty of up armored humvees and everyone had body armor. the soldiers dying now are dying because it's war, not because they aren't properly equipped. but the humvee isn't really a fighting vehicle, it's basic transportation. if we want the soldiers to be truly safe, they need something that was designed to take an explosion and carry armor. we had a couple in Kirkuk but the name escapes me at the moment. but those things are rediculously expensive and heavy. they can't do as much as a humvee can.

but RJF, no one's usurping the constitution. the president manages the war effort, but congress funds it. the fact that they had to buy votes with pork is disgusting but that's politics. the president seems intent on fighting this war until the end of time, congress is just trying to move things along.

our military presence there isn't helping in a few ways (it's helping in others i'm not going to discuss). the Iraqi military and government have relied on us too much, a time line will push them harder to build up their own system. and attacks that are meant for the US military often kill Iraqi civilians, just adding to the number of arabs that hate the US. we can't really "win" this war (emphasis on WE) it has to be an effort by the middle east as a whole.

they want us to leave, we want to leave, how is this not a win-win situation? people say that the insurgents will just wait until we leave then open the flood gates. first, i doubt they could just wait idly by until we leave, and second, it's not like we would be sitting on our hands until we leave. even a little peace and quiet would let us get so much more done with the Iraqi military training, solidifying the government, and rebuilding the infrastructure.

[S14DB]

I went to Russia, I'm a communist sympathizer now... Let's invade Syria!

Why do we have to get in another Civil War? Why not just leave and let them hug it out and go back in if the terrorists take over? We do a better job of invading then holding.

De-baathification and especially dissolving the Army is what led to the insurgents and most of not all the problems we have now.

[Baka Sama]

Bottom line is this is all part of the Democrat 2008 Presidential campaign and they will do whatever they can to make sure we don't win the war, because if we succeed, President Bush was right and they'll have a harder chance to take back the White House.

hahaha, Thats the funniest thing I read all day. The US doesnt even have a strategy to win. I like how you blame the overall failure in Iraq to everyone except Bush.

I just dont even debate about this war anymore. Theres so many things we dont know.

[Wahl 136]

Aside from the war I'm flustered with the goverment in general for not imposing any legislation on the oil industry. With Exxon posting another 10% rise in profits this quarter making 9.3 billion dollars. So when they made a profit of 39.5 billion in and only spent 4 billion of that investing in R&D alternative production methods they just pocketed 35.5 billion dollars.

Yet in Europe oil prices are falling so is production and so are gas prices. Who's doing anything to stop them? Only people that has attempted to do anything is a senator Bob Casey from PA. The Same Bob Casey that other Senators are calling unqualified for office, the same Bob Casey who's campaign was partially financed by the oil industry.

I'm all for liberating needy people and killing terrorist, but I'd like to see some of that 100 billion spent in America also.

Also I'm confused how abortion is legal but the use of embryo stem cells can't make it past Bush. If there going to flush them down the toilet anyways why not let them cure some disease?

[89dc240]

Bottom line is this is all part of the Democrat 2008 Presidential campaign and they will do whatever they can to make sure we don't win the war, because if we succeed, President Bush was right and they'll have a harder chance to take back the White House.

Um, not to be a dick or change the subject or anything, but have you seen the Democrandidates? They need to get their act together and put forward someone people will vote for if the want a Demo president.



"Why not just leave and let them hug it out and go back in if the terrorists take over? We do a better job of invading then holding."

Ah, my thoughts for quite a while now. If I may expand... We bring everybody home, keep our own land safe(I'd like to see a mandatory assault rifle in every home in America)(How many robberies would that reduce, lol)Give the terrorists enough time to take over their whole country over there, you know, get all the citizens to share the same views, hate America, whatever. Then, we just wipe them off the board with whatever means neccessary. Thats the Military I wanna join. When I can go pick off anybody over there is the day I sign up. If not something that fun, than maybe just a real big bomb. But I vote for moving target practice

[TheSquidd]

.02

War sucks.
Terrorism sucks.
Freedom rocks.
The Constitution is slowly dying.
Modern media is a double edged sword.
We know too much, and not enough.
We know too much about the war and it disgusts us and makes us want to leave.
We don't know enough, our leaders are covering up all kinds of shit and no one trusts them anymore.
If we can't trust our own government, our country is destined to fail. Florida fail.
Party lines are destroying common sense.
We don't need anymore laws.
We need to fund our troops.
We need to bring them home when the time is right.
We WILL NOT win this war. There is no possible way to WIN this, there is no real enemy, or plausible goal. This will bleed us to death.
This war is not protecting our freedoms, in fact we have lost some in it's wake.
We can not just leave and let anarchy reign.
We started this horrid mess, we have to fix it.



shit sucks.

[Baka Sama]

Aside from the war I'm flustered with the goverment in general for not imposing any legislation on the oil industry. With Exxon posting another 10% rise in profits this quarter making 9.3 billion dollars. So when they made a profit of 39.5 billion in and only spent 4 billion of that investing in R&D alternative production methods they just pocketed 35.5 billion dollars.

^^ Very good point. I always say this when people talk about saving the planet. You really think if a company is making a profit of 40 billion dollars a year they're really gonna just give that all up so people in there lifetime can run cleaner more efficient cars lol. I dont think so.

Money and greed makes the world go 'round, period. And anyone whos anyone has their hands in the oil industry. All this babble about how 2010 we're gonna have new fuel sources is a joke. We've had ethanol here forever! Imagine what would happen if everyone spent about 100.00 and converted their car to use only ethanol. We'd have so many bricks of shit lying around it wouldnt even be funny. Oil is NOT going away until it is all used up and everyone that can, has made their fortune on it. Yes even the Bush's.

[Baka Sama]

...Lots of good points...

shit sucks.

...and then you die. Better to make the most of the life you have now, whatever that may be to you.

[Wahl 136]

^^ Very good point. I always say this when people talk about saving the planet. You really think if a company is making a profit of 40 billion dollars a year they're really gonna just give that all up so people in there lifetime can run cleaner more efficient cars lol. I dont think so.

Money and greed makes the world go 'round, period. And anyone whos anyone has their hands in the oil industry. All this babble about how 2010 we're gonna have new fuel sources is a joke. We've had ethanol here forever! Imagine what would happen if everyone spent about 100.00 and converted their car to use only ethanol. We'd have so many bricks of shit lying around it wouldnt even be funny. Oil is NOT going away until it is all used up and everyone that can, has made their fortune on it. Yes even the Bush's.

Car companies are just as bad, they make you feel all warm and fuzzy with hydrogen, electric, and E85 concept cars but they probley get kick backs from the oil industry double what they make in a year.

[S14DB]

Where are we going to get this magic Ethanol and Hydrogen to power all the cars?

[Jon Michael]

I watched a video a few weeks ago, I didn't pay much attention to the video. But, it was the background sound that really caught my attention. It was John F. Kennedy's "The President and the Press" speech. Anyone who hasn't heard this speech, go and read or listen to it.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/JFK/003POF03NewspaperPublishers04271961.htm

All I can say is, this is exactly what we need.

[AJ1356]

this whole thing is a huge gaggle F**K. wel we were there our HUMVEE's had plastic doors even our hardshell ones did not much of an armor. so we got a bunch of sand bags and sand bagged the shit out of our vehicles. out of my whole battlion i was the only person with perivious combact experience. WTF great i had to deal with a bunch of boots not knowing anything. we are the united stated where is our advanced weaponery? they new M4 is a peice of crap, it jams like it is no ones business. and the DOD is not willing to get something better like the HK version that is super awesome and costs the same as the POS Colt rifle the armed forces are forced to buy. good body armor ?? that is another joke, there is this sweet azz body armor that stops pretty much all kinds of rounds even hand grenades is light wieght .. and the DOD is if you are wearing that and you get killed your family dont get life insurace, WTF? you get punished if you have something that has better life saving capbilities than the crap issue body armor??? oh hear is another sweet fact not many know about. the army is tricking most of the injured servicememeber to get out under personality disorder instead of medical discharge, WHY?? here is why, they tell the soldiers hey if you get out under personality disorder you dont have to go through 6 months of medical board and when you get out the VA takes care of you... WRONG!!! the VA does not take care of them and the army does not have to paythem disablity and saves the money to buy knee pads to give BJ's to Rytheon MD or whatever other company is making the big bucks cause of this Ubber Adventure.

[AJ1356]

oh did anyone know that there is an IMPEACHMENT resolution for Mr Cheney in the House Of Representatives, it is called resulotion 333??? well ofcourse not cuase no news channel is covering it. washington post covered it a couple of days ago.. and whoever is saying that we are not getting forced towards a dictatorship, needs to wake up smell the BS and stop watching fox news. that is another joke, fox used to do news for sports. did everyone forget that there was not fox news b4 2000 ????????

[RJF]

hahaha, Thats the funniest thing I read all day. The US doesnt even have a strategy to win. I like how you blame the overall failure in Iraq to everyone except Bush.

I just dont even debate about this war anymore. Theres so many things we dont know.

OK, so what is the Democrat plan to win the war? There isn't one. Their plan is to cut and run, same reason the Vietnam War was lost. See a pattern here?

The Democrats can't offer a plan on that or any other subject, only bash Bush.

[240trainee]

Given that nearly 60000 US servicemembers died in Vietnam over a 9 year period, we're not even coming close to that, with 3,332 dead in 5 years (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/tollofwar/tollofwarmain.html). Hell, in the 4 years of the Korean war, we saw ~37,000 US servicemembers die. I'm not even going to mention WWII.
Freedom is something to be taken lightly or for granted.

It is true that the casualty rate is much lower in Iraq, but the survival rate with near fatal injuries is much higher than it has been in previous wars.

So people are living, but are seriously disfigured/ maimed.

15,746 injured (http://www.icasualties.org/oif/)

[mRclARK1]

OK, so what is the Democrat plan to win the war? There isn't one. Their plan is to cut and run, same reason the Vietnam War was lost. See a pattern here?

The Democrats can't offer a plan on that or any other subject, only bash Bush.

That's the thing that is common to almost all who protest the war on terror... they want out, but have no plan to end it. They whine and complain about it; but were probably on the warpath themselves after 9/11. IMHO I think it mostly comes down to what I said before; most people have become so used to enjoying thier freedom; that they have no will to protect it. Therefore they can't stomach the fact that nothing has really changed much from times like WWII etc; and the fact remains that people WILL have to die to protect the freedom they enjoy. Because those who want it destroyed will always exist.

No matter what your views on the war may be... we're deep in it now, and cutting and running will only make it worse in the long run.

[AJ1356]

OK, so what is the Democrat plan to win the war? There isn't one. Their plan is to cut and run, same reason the Vietnam War was lost. See a pattern here?

The Democrats can't offer a plan on that or any other subject, only bash Bush.

maybe cause there is no way to win this... specially no military way, not even if we kill half the population. the Iraqis are pissed cause thier economy is shot they have no freedom no way to further thier education, electricity or running water, so ofcourse they are gonna fight us since they see us the reason of thier misfortunes. another reason is since we are not aware of thier ways and customs, our forces there just mess things up and even if the military fixes itself there are about 100,000 mercs that do whatever they want without haing to answer to anyone. this is not a republican or a democrat problem it is an American problem, eventhough the republicans started it and try to blame everyone else.

[AJ1356]

That's the thing that is common to almost all who protest the war on terror... they want out, but have no plan to end it. They whine and complain about it; but were probably on the warpath themselves after 9/11. IMHO I think it mostly comes down to what I said before; most people have become so used to enjoying thier freedom; that they have no will to protect it. Therefore they can't stomach the fact that nothing has really changed much from times like WWII etc; and the fact remains that people WILL have to die to protect the freedom they enjoy. Because those who want it destroyed will always exist.

No matter what your views on the war may be... were deep in it now, and cutting and running will only make it worse in the long run.

Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or the war on terror. by us going to Iraq we actually caused ourselves more problems. b4 Iraq the world was behind us because of 911. we were kicking terrorist ass in Afghanistan and people of the world still LOVED us. oh and gas was still under 2 dollers in CA. After Iraq, the terrorists found a new training ground since Saddam was nolonger able to stop them. it gave the likes of osama more excuse to try and misguide young muslims into hating us. oh and they dont hate us cause we are free or whatever, they hate us cause we are the source of thier problems. they want to have our freedoms and our way of live. TOTALLY forgot, and the situation in Afghanistn is worsening by the day, since most of our attention is on Iraq the Taliban are ammassing in the south and have been able to take over certain districts of the country. and poppy cultivation is at its highest, and sometimes there are more bombings in Afghanistan than there are in Iraq. win that war!

[mRclARK1]

^^^Iraq was no America friendly place before the war by any means; and it's connection to 9/11 is open to debate I think; and is kinda beside the point now that we're in it up to our necks like we are...

If the Iraqis are so pissed at America, and the other countries who were part of the invasion; why do they usually spend most of there time killing each other? It's someting I wonder(ed) about. I agree with you on your other points. I'm not saying the republicans, democrats or the military are guilt free in any of these matters.

[Baka Sama]

I have a question for all the soilders on the forum,

How much actual trainging do they give you on the culture of the Iraq people? On how do deal with them and what to say to them?

[AJ1356]

^^^ well the government was no friend to America but the people were ok. the reason they are killing each other is they are RETARDED...LOL... that is the simplest answer. Honest to god humans are pretty retarded, they'd kill each other for the stupidest of reasons. just look at the US for example and we are not even at war, all different ethnicities kill each other no good reason but they do.

[AJ1356]

I have a question for all the soilders on the forum,

How much actual trainging do they give you on the culture of the Iraq people? On how do deal with them and what to say to them?

depends on your unit. if you are lucky to have someone from the middle east then you get some orientation by that person. prior to the envation there was not much training, now seemingly there is some. the problem is the active duty personnel get good training BUT Iraq is full of reservists now, poor resevists are the redhead bastard child of the military...

[mRclARK1]

^^^ well the government was no friend to America but the people were ok. the reason they are killing each other is they are RETARDED...LOL... that is the simplest answer. Honest to god humans are pretty retarded, they'd kill each other for the stupidest of reasons. just look at the US for example and we are not even at war, all different ethnicities kill each other no good reason but they do.

Again I agree with you. People have been killing each other since there was enough people to kill, and still be sure of our survival as a species. haha

But you don't have suicide bombings twice a day, and the kind of ruthless sectarian violence, in the western world like you do there. Probably more people, more Iraqi civilians, die by the actions of there own countrymen and fellow muslims in a week, then people in America in a year. Why? Like was said previously here; it's mainly ignorance, among other things. If we are the "great satan" and evil in the world, how come we can live (as much as humans can) in peace with each other?... and they cannot?

They were killing each other long before we came, and probably long after we leave. :-/

[Wahl 136]

It's my understanding they have been at war since biblical times and are killing eachother because of religious differences mostly because there is a disagreement over the leader of the Muslim followers after Mohammed died.

[AJ1356]

As i said Retarded :) . actually it is not religion that is the reason of the killings it is ethnicities. the suicide bombing are because Arabs are DUMB as shit, not because of Islam. Islam forbids suicide and the killing of the innocent. the main reason for sectarian voilence is not the fact the Shia and sunni have a small different of opinion it is because, the sunni were more favored during the raign of saddam and enjoyed all kinds of goodies which they dont anymore. That is why they are pissy, and also cause their leaders were retarded and did not get good seats in the government, so thier intrests are not represented, thus they dont get waht they want and think they could get thier way by voilence, as i said retarded. either way our boys are getting killed thier,

[mRclARK1]

^^^ I know what you're talking about, I just meant it more as a rhetorical question I guess. Suicide is banned in Islam, yet suicide bombers are a weapon of choice for many of them. Like you said; retarded. I just don't see how people can say ALL the violence taking place there is the fault of america; it was happening long before.

I don't know if I would say Arabs are dumb. In my experience, a lot are just ignorant of the world outside the middle east.

Bleh... don't wanna think about this anymore. lol

[johngriff]

RJ Starts an awesome thread, and you guys burn it into the ground. The majority of opinion in this thread is FACTUALLY WRONG. Read Some books, or at least wikipedia before jumping to so many conclusions or believing everything you hear from friends and politicians.

As lame as the bill sounds, at some point, we need to take the training wheels off, right?

I am a firm subscriber to minding my own business. This "WAR" is not a huge drain on the American economy. It has not greatly effected the American way of life. We are not father and brotherless in LARGE Scale like WWII. While every life is precious and all sacrifices respeteced, there is not a lot for us civis to complain about, especially those with no military contact.

The war is being used as a tool to strategize for upcoming elections by both parties. The biggest difference any of us can make is to tell our politicians to take care of us here at home, MIND OUR BUSINESS, and leave external affairs to the Commander in Cheif, the State Department, and the DOD.

A real question I would like to pose is this:
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Can you draw real distinctions between dangers in Iraq and "Security Measures" here? If actions by this administration imposing upon your personal rights are your fear (ex: bush is becoming dictator), why do you complain about the iraq conflict?

[mRclARK1]

RJ Starts an awesome thread, and you guys burn it into the ground. The majority of opinion in this thread is FACTUALLY WRONG. Read Some books, or at least wikipedia before jumping to so many conclusions or believing everything you hear from friends and politicians.

I don't see how we are burning it into the ground. No one here is flaming each other or anything, it's just some people sharing opinions formed on experiences. Both our own, and I'm sure some from people we trust. I for one don't believe everything I'm told.

While every life is precious and all sacrifices respeteced, there is not a lot for us civis to complain about, especially those with no military contact.

:werd:

[theicecreamdan]

Ah, my thoughts for quite a while now. If I may expand... We bring everybody home, keep our own land safe(I'd like to see a mandatory assault rifle in every home in America)(How many robberies would that reduce, lol)Give the terrorists enough time to take over their whole country over there, you know, get all the citizens to share the same views, hate America, whatever. Then, we just wipe them off the board with whatever means neccessary. Thats the Military I wanna join. When I can go pick off anybody over there is the day I sign up. If not something that fun, than maybe just a real big bomb. But I vote for moving target practice

So you're saying we should pull out until it gets to a point where we can rationalize sending in a bunch of fucksticks like you to commit genocide? What the fuck is "fun" about killing people? I'd much rather see 1,000 Iraqis dead than one more of our guys. Death is the main theme in war, but its NOT the main objective. Its not a fucking game, we're not over there looking for a high score.

This war has very little to do with protecting OUR rights. Its got a lot to do with trying to build a system that will protect the rights of people outside of the USA. Its sad that it was marketed to us differently. But I truly believe we're there trying to do something good for the world.

[mRclARK1]

Originally Posted by 89dc240
Ah, my thoughts for quite a while now. If I may expand... We bring everybody home, keep our own land safe(I'd like to see a mandatory assault rifle in every home in America)(How many robberies would that reduce, lol)Give the terrorists enough time to take over their whole country over there, you know, get all the citizens to share the same views, hate America, whatever. Then, we just wipe them off the board with whatever means neccessary. Thats the Military I wanna join. When I can go pick off anybody over there is the day I sign up. If not something that fun, than maybe just a real big bomb. But I vote for moving target practice

I dunno how I missed your post till now; but now that theicecreamdan has put it on my screen I can respond to it...

I'm sorry, but with what you said in your post, I hope you never join any military or armed force of any kind ever. Not unless you change your views a lot from what they seem to be in your post. War is not fun. It is not target practice. Killing another human being is something you should hope you never have to do.

[Tenchuu]

This IS NOT A WAR, this is a peace keeping mission.

peace keeping mission= if you get shot you can return fire

war= search and destroy the enemy.

if we fought this as a war the US would have won in under a year. the US population does not want to seem mean politically so by not supporting this as an all out war, they have committed our troops to die. i fi was to shoot an iraqi that was firing a gun in my decision while over there i would have went to military prison. their had to be dead and wounded around me before i could return any fire. The politics have set this up for failure. war is gritty and dirty, but necessary for progress. Thank everyone who didn't want a bit of dirt on their hands for 99% of US deaths here. if we went in and stayed at war it would have lasted a few months NOT years. THE END.



This all comes from first hand experience. and by the way, after being over there for about a year, i can tell you that the mass media is full of lies that are not even close to 1/2 truths and the American public believes it. I know the truth and it is a COMPLETELY different story than what anyone has seen that hasn't lived over there for a time.

[mRclARK1]

IMHO Iraq itself is not war in the strictest definition; like the one you posted. Even though I've refered to it as such. But I do see it as part of the war on terrorism, and we are actively searching and destroying terrorists.

Also, the media has it's own agenda and, I agree, is unreliable.

But I've posted way to much/too often in this thread. haha... it's just making me think about stuff I'd rather not, so I'm done here I think...

[DragonUSMC]

This IS NOT A WAR, this is a peace keeping mission.

peace keeping mission= if you get shot you can return fire

war= search and destroy the enemy.

if we fought this as a war the US would have won in under a year.This all comes from first hand experience. and by the way, after being over there for about a year, i can tell you that the mass media is full of lies that are not even close to 1/2 truths and the American public believes it. I know the truth and it is a COMPLETELY different story than what anyone has seen that hasn't lived over there for a time.


AMEN BROTHER... My stint was done in the 04-05 time frame, my mission
was the Fallujah push that was all over the news after BlackWater Bridge got its name. I still don’t talk about that day. It seemed as though time was standing still that day… I miss it over there actually… its strange.

But anyway, to answer Baka Sama’s question… depends on when you were there. My unit, went out and practiced “how to convoy”. Basically we rode around in trucks in the mountain roads on Camp Pendleton, CA and looked for “IEDs” which were old ammo cans on the side of the road.

Now they have an entire village / town which simulates patrols and living with the Iraqis. I watched a special on it on the military channel and was like OMG! THAT WAS JUST LIKE IT!!! Why didn’t I get that training? My brother turned to me and was shocked and said, “what? They didn’t do that stuff with you guys?” I was like nope, gave us an interpreter and some bullets, said get out there and win. We gave up our bullet proof plates to the guys out on patrol every day, they needed it more. We had sandbag floors on our trucks and no doors, they put bombs in the bodies that we had to clean up, they slashed the ACLs of some kid and put him by a bomb, killed the corpsmen that went to help the kid.

I guess the problem I have is the people I’ve met over there. If we pull out they all will die, and then my buddies died in vain. But its hard to separate a Marine from his mission. Its like I believe we should help them but things should have been done A LOT differently. I don’t think we should pull out, but man its got to get better soon.

I cant watch TV about it anymore… cause its like the news says “x number of Marines / Soldiers died today” and the people here doesn’t even notice… they its like a blip in their life cause it doesn’t affect them at all… and all I ever do is constantly think of what I could have done differently to save someone that I didn’t.

[89dc240]

So you're saying we should pull out until it gets to a point where we can rationalize sending in a bunch of fucksticks like you to commit genocide? What the fuck is "fun" about killing people? I'd much rather see 1,000 Iraqis dead than one more of our guys. Death is the main theme in war, but its NOT the main objective. Its not a fucking game, we're not over there looking for a high score.

This war has very little to do with protecting OUR rights. Its got a lot to do with trying to build a system that will protect the rights of people outside of the USA. Its sad that it was marketed to us differently. But I truly believe we're there trying to do something good for the world.

Oh boy, So I neglected to write that the "point of rationalization" would be after they get all their shit together and do something else like 9/11. While such a thing would be horrible, it should be enough to motivate us into killing them all. Ok, maybe I shouldnt join the military, they probably wouldn't take me anyway, not the point. We could touch a button and take care of everything. We stay safe, no more US losses and everything's done.

One thing I haven't understood from the BEGINNING... Why is building a system to protect the people's rights outside of the USA any of our damn business. If they want rights, shouldnt they do something about it themselves?

[AJ1356]

Ah, my thoughts for quite a while now. If I may expand... We bring everybody home, keep our own land safe(I'd like to see a mandatory assault rifle in every home in America)(How many robberies would that reduce, lol)Give the terrorists enough time to take over their whole country over there, you know, get all the citizens to share the same views, hate America, whatever. Then, we just wipe them off the board with whatever means neccessary. Thats the Military I wanna join. When I can go pick off anybody over there is the day I sign up. If not something that fun, than maybe just a real big bomb. But I vote for moving target practice

WOW i totally missed this utter laps of judgement, formed into words. you expect people around the world to respect us with that mentality? I am all pro gun, but i also am anti retard, you CAN't just give everyone a gun, remember guns dont kill people STUPID people with guns kill people. War is not a video game that you get more cookie points for killing more people. remember Iraqis are human too, just like us. they are not animals, if you enjoy killing humans and think it is fun then you are twisted. war is an ugly thing, nothing glorified about it, everything about it stinks.

[Phlip]

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/51037/
There's an interesting view on the subject

[89dc240]

WOW i totally missed this utter laps of judgement, formed into words. you expect people around the world to respect us with that mentality? I am all pro gun, but i also am anti retard, you CAN't just give everyone a gun, remember guns dont kill people STUPID people with guns kill people. War is not a video game that you get more cookie points for killing more people. remember Iraqis are human too, just like us. they are not animals, if you enjoy killing humans and think it is fun then you are twisted. war is an ugly thing, nothing glorified about it, everything about it stinks.

I have too much time here at work. So, you want the stupid people around? Wouldnt a stupid person with a gun be a little more weary of where he pointed his gun, if he knew everyone else had one? If he did, he'd be taken care of and the smart people would continue on. I don't want points for killing people, and I dont want to kill all the iraquis. Not until they are all unified against the USA and do something to prove it. At the risk of losing more lives, I say lets give them a chance. I know that's F'ed up. Call me an asshole or fuckstick or whatever, If I cared, I'd be angry. Bein angry don't getcha nowhere. I don't want to act, I want to Re-act.

[TheSquidd]

I do not believe my opinions to be fact.
Neither side has a plan to win. You can't, because you can't WIN this war.
Pointing fingers at dems or repubs is doing nothing but turning this country, this war, our way of life, into a stupid football game.
This "war" or "battle" or whatever you want to call it isn't to protect anyone's freedoms IMHO.
IMHO it's a fight to establish a central military location to deal with problems in the middle east.
Not that many people are dying vs. any other war. We're just being exposed to it more than ever before. It's seriously not as bad as everyone thinks, it's bad, but not THAT bad.
I don't think there should be a rush to remove our troops, but I think there needs to be a clear set of goals we need to reach, and then we're done there. As of right now it doesn't seem TO ME that they are doing jack shit over there, and at this rate I could see 10 more years of this war.
I hope to god, or whatever, that this is the last of the middle eastern countries we get involved in. We don't belong there. It is a region of war and violence, and our presence there does nothing but fuel the fires.

89dc240. You're fucking RETARDED. I don't even need to comment further on that.

[89dc240]

89dc240. You're fucking RETARDED. I don't even need to comment further on that.

Excuse me for having a different idea from apparently everyone else. Good thing this is a free country. aha ahaha haahahaaa

C'mon, I know there's more out there, I'll start the list
1.Fuckstick
2.Twisted
3.Retarded
4.
5.

[DragonUSMC]

I think that is my favorite part about the whole political aspect of this war…

Is that Dems and Repubs point fingers, and speak of the past. The American public used to pay attention and now just replace their yellow ribbon magnet with one that represents their favorite damn football team.

There is a way to win this, but it doesn’t fall strictly upon our shoulders, and I think no one is looking for it. Like my buddy in Ramadi told me in his last email… “America isn’t at war, the US Marine Corps is at war… America is at the mall.”

All I want is someone to try and focus on a solution. Don’t talk about who said what, or if you are a red or blue, I want more people becoming part of the solution. Stop compounding the problems. Where are the politicians doing that?

[AJ1356]

i am going the way of mRclARK1 and am retiring from this post. DragonUSMC tell your buddies a salty Sgt is praying for them hhoorraaahhh.
as a parting gift i leave you all with this song.

http://www.dailymotion.com/cluster/politics/featured/video/x13l8u_mos-def-immortal-technique-et-emine

[drift freaq]

Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or the war on terror. by us going to Iraq we actually caused ourselves more problems. b4 Iraq the world was behind us because of 911. we were kicking terrorist ass in Afghanistan and people of the world still LOVED us. oh and gas was still under 2 dollers in CA. After Iraq, the terrorists found a new training ground since Saddam was nolonger able to stop them. it gave the likes of osama more excuse to try and misguide young muslims into hating us. oh and they dont hate us cause we are free or whatever, they hate us cause we are the source of thier problems. they want to have our freedoms and our way of live. TOTALLY forgot, and the situation in Afghanistn is worsening by the day, since most of our attention is on Iraq the Taliban are ammassing in the south and have been able to take over certain districts of the country. and poppy cultivation is at its highest, and sometimes there are more bombings in Afghanistan than there are in Iraq. win that war!

These are good points that S14DB echoed.
To further clarify things. Afghanistan was a legal action based on the goverment of Afghanistan at that time being a wiling collaborator in the 9/11 attacks. We were justified going in and had the Worlds approval. Iraq was Dick Cheney's own private policy that G.W. was willing to get on board with to finish dads business. Though the older Bush was wise enough to realize that there was nothing to replace the vacuum that would be left. Hence why they did not all the way in the Gulf war.
We have set ourselves back 20 years in foreign policy and world opinion with this action. Fact is we have upset the delicate balance of power in the middle east destabilizing it. Making things worse not better for us. Regardless of being a despot and a madman, Saddam's dictatorship was the only thing that glued that country together. You cannot just up and have a country become democratic when it has never known anything but dictatorships and totalaterian style rule for most all the time of existance. Shite will not agree with Sunni and Kurds will not agree with each other. Better to seperate them into 3 different country's. Current Iraq was a British mandate country. I.E. the Bristish redrew the lines in the early part of the 20th century and said this will be this country this will be that country. After the holocaust it cemented the mandates with the creation of Isreal. Now how do we extract ourselves from the mess? It hards to say but trying to leave Iraq as one whole country ruled by one goverment of elected officials is a pipe dream at this point in time. It will return to a dictatorship or it will break apart. We have been distracted from our real objective by it and its saddening and scary all at once. Thank you Dick Cheney may you rot in hell.
The current adminstration is a stain on our country. A insult to real Republicans( hell the current Republican party and party line are a insult to real Rupublicans)
It does not matter what party your with as long as you remember do not vote party line vote what you believe in. I.E. if your democrat but you see a good Republican that would make a good president then vote for him. Same goes for Republicans if you see a conservative Democrat you like vote for him.
We could do a lot better if the abolished the electoral college and people stopped voting party lines.

[DragonUSMC]

It does not matter what party your with as long as you remember do not vote party line vote what you believe in. I.E. if your democrat but you see a good Republican that would make a good president then vote for him. Same goes for Republicans if you see a conservative Democrat you like vote for him.
We could do a lot better if the abolished the electoral college and people stopped voting party lines.

QFT... omg QFT!!!!

[Phlip]

Dave for president before he gets too old! :rofl:

[Tenchuu]

There is one simple solution to all our political and economic problem.

The two party system has failed.
Vote me for Emperor of the United empire of America.

done and done. now remember Ken for Emperor '08

[TheSquidd]

Excuse me for having a different idea from apparently everyone else. Good thing this is a free country. aha ahaha haahahaaa

C'mon, I know there's more out there, I'll start the list
1.Fuckstick
2.Twisted
3.Retarded
4.
5.


Cock shit
Douche bag
Ass Clown
Butt Brain
Assy Nipples
Poopsicle
Moran
Douche Nozzle
Butt Mongrel
Butt puss
Piss Clam
Cum wipe


<3

[theicecreamdan]

Oh boy, So I neglected to write that the "point of rationalization" would be after they get all their shit together and do something else like 9/11. While such a thing would be horrible, it should be enough to motivate us into killing them all. Ok, maybe I shouldnt join the military, they probably wouldn't take me anyway, not the point. We could touch a button and take care of everything. We stay safe, no more US losses and everything's done.

One thing I haven't understood from the BEGINNING... Why is building a system to protect the people's rights outside of the USA any of our damn business. If they want rights, shouldnt they do something about it themselves?

If we even THINK there MIGHT be a point where they'll be back over here to do another 9/11 then what the fuck are we waiting for? Waiting for them to hit us again at home is bullshit. What are you going to say when their next act of aggression over here goes nuclear? So in your "ideal" war, we lose at least another 3,000 US civilians, and as many iraqis as you can unload on when you get over there. Go suck assholes through a straw, you're retarded.

Its been our business since 1945 when the USA was established as THE world power. Everything that goes on in the world is our business. We have money over there, we have allies over there, we have oil over there. Every free person, every open market, every dictatorship, every starved child. EVERYTHING effects us. If you want to live in a country that doesn't have to worry about the rest of the world then move to Canada. As long as you live in the USA you need to realize that we have responsibilities, and that living up to those responsibilities is in your best interest.

And yes, I think we're trying to hold onto Iraq to keep a big presence in the middle east. Iran hasn't exactly been playing by our rules lately. I hope we have a different administration by the time we have to deal with them.


We could do a lot better if the abolished the electoral college and people stopped voting party lines.

You really think we can convince average Americans to vote for somebody not on their "team" ?

[RJF]

Its been our business since 1945 when the USA was established as THE world power. Everything that goes on in the world is our business. We have money over there, we have allies over there, we have oil over there. Every free person, every open market, every dictatorship, every starved child. EVERYTHING effects us. If you want to live in a country that doesn't have to worry about the rest of the world then move to Canada. As long as you live in the USA you need to realize that we have responsibilities, and that living up to those responsibilities is in your best interest.

And yes, I think we're trying to hold onto Iraq to keep a big presence in the middle east. Iran hasn't exactly been playing by our rules lately. I hope we have a different administration by the time we have to deal with them.


I think you said it perfectly...the world (politics and economics) is so interwined now that the USA needs to protect our interests and stop these Islamic Facists from causing world-wide chaos.

Can you picture if this plan would have suceeded? We woundn't need Zilvia because we wouldn't be driving or gasoline would be $100/gal.

172 Militants Planning Attack on Oil Fields Arrested in Saudi Arabia
Friday , April 27, 2007

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia —

Saudi police arrested 172 Islamic militants who were on the verge of carrying out a series of terror attacks on oil facilities, military zones and public figures, the Interior Ministry said Friday. A spokesman said all that remained in the plot "was to set the zero hour."

An Interior ministry statement said police seized weapons and more than 20 million riyals ($5.33 million) in cash, from seven armed cells.

"Some had been training on the use of weapons, and some were sent to other countries to study aviation in preparation to use them to carry out terrorist operations inside the kingdom," the statement said.

U.S. officials characterized the plot as "extremely serious" and said a connection to senior Al Qaeda leadership — Usama bin Laden or Ayman Al-Zawahiri — had not been ruled out.

The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, noted that the plot was very similar to Sept. 11, by having militants train as pilots to use planes in the attacks and hitting several targets simultaneously.

"They had reached an advance stage of readiness and what remained only was to set the zero hour for their attacks," Interior Ministry spokesman Brig. Mansour al-Turki told the Associated Press in a phone call. "They had the personnel, the money, the arms. Almost all the elements for terror attacks were complete."

Al-Turki told the privately owned Al-Arabiya TV channel that the militants included non-Saudis.

The militants also planned to storm Saudi prisons to free the inmates, the statement said.

"Certainly anytime the Saudis or anyone else takes action against those involed in terrorism it's a good thing. It's something that makes the world safer and makes America safer," Tom Casey, a State Department spokesman, said in Washington.

The Saudi statement said some of the military targets were outside the kingdom. Al-Turki said the arrests occurred "at various and successive times" but did not elaborate.

The Saudi state TV channel Al-Ekhbariah broadcast footage of large weapons cache discovered buried in the desert. The arms included bricks of plastic explosives, ammunition cartridges, handguns and rifles wrapped in plastic sheeting.

The ministry referred to the militants only as a "deviant group" — the Saudi term for Islamic terrorist.

Al-Ekhbariah showed investigators breaking tiled floors with hammers to uncover pipes that contained weapons. In one scene, an official upends a plastic pipe and bullets and little packets of plastic explosives spill out.

The channel also showed investigators digging up plastic sacks in the desert.

Bin Laden has called for attacks on the kingdom's oil facilities as a means of crippling both the kingdom's economy and the hurting the West, which he accuses of paying too little for Arab oil.

FOX News' Catherine Herridge contributed to this report.

[mRclARK1]

If you want to live in a country that doesn't have to worry about the rest of the world then move to Canada

I know I said I was done with this thread... but I take a bit of offense to that. I'm a Canadian citizen, as well as an American, and proud of both. While I do not agree with a lot of things that go on in Canada, and often find myself in the minority here with my views, your statement is completely false. Canada may not be as much of a target of terrorism as the US; but Canada is a target. Terrorists have been captured here with the full intent of attacking Canada; and it's population. There was a foiled plan for a subway bomb in a major Canadian city, as well as a plan for an attack on the parliament buildings and that's not all.
Canada did not go to Iraq, I believe it should have. However, Canada has the second highest casualties in Afghanistan (I've lost friends there), and is doing a very large part of the combat operations there, yet it has one of the smallest military forces in NATO. Canada did have a very large army for a country it's size for a long time (WW2 Canada had a military of 1million+ from only a population of 11million) but in more recent times it was slowly shrunk and slashed for years and years by some very stupid government decisions; and it's still trying to fully recover from that.

I agree with you that the US is the world power; but it's very dangerous to assume the US is the only one with a responsibility here, and is ignorant to act as if it's the only one contributing to any of these efforts. I'll, however, be the first to say the US is by far the leader worldwide.

[TheSquidd]

I agree with you that the US is the world power; but it's very dangerous to assume the US is the only one with a responsibility here, and is ignorant to act as if it's the only one contributing to any of these efforts. I'll, however, be the first to say the US is by far the leader worldwide.

Everyone know's it's AMERICA that does everything in the world. Canadians are just tree huggers and lumber jacks, Iraqi's are all terrorists, and the French all surrender.


/sarcasm.

We are an insanely self centered nation.

[Wahl 136]

I just heard on tv in the United Kingdom there are 1 camera to every 14 people watching you at all times no matter where you are. I would assume that is in most city limits.

Maybe it could be worse it could be like that. However there littering problem has decreased 95% and has since been named the "greenest" country in the world right now.

[TheSquidd]

Yeah and there'd be less crime if every offense was punishable by death. You just have to think, how much is too much?

[Tenchuu]

Ken for World Emperor '08

I am fair and just. no tickets unless the police physically catch you.

Canadians rejoice!!

[theicecreamdan]

I know I said I was done with this thread... but I take a bit of offense to that. I'm a Canadian citizen, as well as an American, and proud of both. While I do not agree with a lot of things that go on in Canada, and often find myself in the minority here with my views, your statement is completely false. Canada may not be as much of a target of terrorism as the US; but Canada is a target. Terrorists have been captured here with the full intent of attacking Canada; and it's population. There was a foiled plan for a subway bomb in a major Canadian city, as well as a plan for an attack on the parliament buildings and that's not all.
Canada did not go to Iraq, I believe it should have. However, Canada has the second highest casualties in Afghanistan (I've lost friends there), and is doing a very large part of the combat operations there, yet it has one of the smallest military forces in NATO. Canada did have a very large army for a country it's size for a long time (WW2 Canada had a military of 1million+ from only a population of 11million) but in more recent times it was slowly shrunk and slashed for years and years by some very stupid government decisions; and it's still trying to fully recover from that.

I agree with you that the US is the world power; but it's very dangerous to assume the US is the only one with a responsibility here, and is ignorant to act as if it's the only one contributing to any of these efforts. I'll, however, be the first to say the US is by far the leader worldwide.

You're right, Canada was just a random country name I picked out. Canada is helping out with problem's in Iraq (money). Move south to central america if you want to live somewhere that you can legitimately say not to worry about what's going on in the rest of the world. My point was that we can't afford to just let shit do whatever in the rest of the world.

[Avante]

I'm not sure how the other members of this board who are serving in the military feel, but for me:

I support my country, and will continue to do so, because that's why i joined.

..but i've lost enough friends in Iraq, 7 is too many (1 is too many), and they were all medics, trying to save their soldiers.

it's time to leave.

[EDacIouSX]

I'm not sure how the other members of this board who are serving in the military feel, but for me:

I support my country, and will continue to do so, because that's why i joined.

..but i've lost enough friends in Iraq, 7 is too many (1 is too many), and they were all medics, trying to save their soldiers.

it's time to leave.

someone once said that leaving iraq prematurely will be no different than a dog following you home

[S14DB]

So, What's our purpose in Iraq again?

[RJF]

We are fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq

Everyone also needs to watch this movie again (or for the first time) as a reminder as to what extent they want to kill us.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/412VRKNVTEL._SS500_.jpg

[mRclARK1]

You're right, Canada was just a random country name I picked out. Canada is helping out with problem's in Iraq (money). Move south to central america if you want to live somewhere that you can legitimately say not to worry about what's going on in the rest of the world. My point was that we can't afford to just let shit do whatever in the rest of the world.

It's all good. :) and I do agree we cannot let "whatever" happen around the globe. To be honest most Canadians don't care about the world outside Canada; but sure like to claim they do. Canada has most of the same problems America does. Unfortunately a lot of Canadians would rather play the blame game; and just try to blame everything on America. It pisses me off. A lot of the Canadians (and supposedly Canadian "views") you see and hear on TV etc... do NOT speak for all Canadians by any means. I've lived here long enough to learn that.

[theicecreamdan]

USA and Britain always getting into barfights and having each other's backs. And then Australia's like OY count me in mate! And Canada's like Ok we'll do something eh?

France doesn't want to fire ze missiles.

[mRclARK1]

"A Yank, a Limey, an Aussie, a Canuck and a Frog walk into a bar...."

:keke:

[Avante]

USA and Britain always getting into barfights and having each other's backs. And then Australia's like OY count me in mate! And Canada's like Ok we'll do something eh?

France doesn't want to fire ze missiles.

Ahhhhh! Motherland!

wtf mate?

[RJF]

Bush Vetoes Troop Withdrawal Bill

May 1 06:47 PM US/Eastern
By ANNE FLAHERTY and JENNIFER LOVEN
Associated Press Writers

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush vetoed legislation to pull U.S. troops out of Iraq Tuesday night in a historic showdown with Congress over whether the unpopular and costly war should end or escalate.
In only the second veto of his presidency, Bush rejected legislation pushed by Democratic leaders that would require the first U.S. combat troops to be withdrawn from Iraq by Oct. 1 with a goal of a complete pullout six months later.

"This is a prescription for chaos and confusion and we must not impose it on our troops," Bush said in a nationally broadcast statement from the White House. He said the bill would "mandate a rigid and artificial deadline" for troop pullouts, and "it makes no sense to tell the enemy when you plan to start withdrawing."

Democrats accused Bush of ignoring American's desire to stop the war, which has claimed the lives of more than 3,350 members of the military.

"The president wants a blank check," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., moments after Bush's appearance. "The Congress is not going to give it to him." She said Congress would work with him to find common ground but added that there was "great distance" between them on Iraq.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Bush has an obligation to explain his plan for responsibly ending the war.

"If the president thinks by vetoing this bill, he'll stop us from working to change the direction of the war in Iraq, he is mistaken," Reid said.

Lacking the votes to override the president, Democratic leaders quietly considered what might be included or kept out of their next version of the $124 billion spending bill. Bush will meet with congressional leaders—Democrats and Republicans alike—on Wednesday to discuss a new bill.

Bush said Democrats had made a political statement by passing anti-war legislation. "They've sent their message, and now it's time to put politics behind us and support our troops with the funds," the president said.

He said the need to act is urgent because without a war-funding bill, the armed forces will have to consider cutting back on buying or repairing equipment.

"Our troops and their families deserve better, and their elected leaders can do better," Bush said.

"Whatever our differences, surely we can agree that our troops are worthy of this funding and that we have a responsibility to get it to them without further delay," the president said.

[nassin31spr]

My brothers been in baghdad for more years than I care to count. He says all he really dose is see people getting killed. This war is a loss and our troops deserve to come home.

[TheSquidd]

My brothers been in baghdad for more years than I care to count. He says all he really dose is see people getting killed. This war is a loss and our troops deserve to come home.

What? What else do you see in war? Bunnies?

[DragonUSMC]

What? What else do you see in war? Bunnies?

actually we didnt see too many bunnies... but we did see some camels which we hit with the MK-19 machine gun granade launcher... we were also fined $500 a piece for those damn things =(

[TheSquidd]

actually we didnt see too many bunnies... but we did see some camels which we hit with the MK-19 machine gun granade launcher... we were also fined $500 a piece for those damn things =(

You know what I mean though right? People die in war, thats what war is.

I hate war. But I don't agree with everyone calling this the new Vietnam. Seriously it's not that bad.

[DragonUSMC]

You know what I mean though right? People die in war, thats what war is.

I hate war. But I don't agree with everyone calling this the new Vietnam. Seriously it's not that bad.

oh no i completely agree... that is what war is. I mean i've seen some pretty nasty stuff and probably will have nightmares about the things i saw and things i did for the rest of my life... but this isnt Vietnam...

My Master Gunns did 3 tours in Nam. I was thankful he was with us out there... he told us stories about real war. He's seen hells that i couldnt imagine. He would stand out in the open with incomming mortars and rockets and just kinda chuckle and smoke his stogie. 2 Bronze stars, 3 silver stars, 2 purple hearts, and the Navy Cross. He is on his 4th tour in Iraq... and he does it because he calls it a vacation from his wife's yard work.

[steve shadows]

This is utter and complete truth. Given the human cost from the US perspective, this is NOTHING, compared to wars past. Technology has given the general public the perception that there should be NO human loss on our side, and that any deaths are completely unjustifiable. This is not the case. War is hell, and people die.

.

people today want UPN and "Total Makeover" and "American Idol"


It’s a culture of mass consumerism which as an ideology spiraled out of control with the collapse of the Soviet Union. There was no more check or realism to base political or even personal social judgments off of. Globalization will force and root out the last true spirits of old Nationalism our grand fathers probably still harbor, in the future nationalism will have a new definition and the nation-state will dissolved, devolve and mutate into something new jaded and transparently anemic in the face of internal threats because in the future: the goal in the world order of system is to have any threat an internal threat that can be dealt with in an status breakdown by police, intelligence and special operations. A global market mixed economy sharing information and profiting together.

Fragmentation is the only hope for "Old America" and fragmentation is by definition the antithesis of globalization succeeding... it will be an interesting future 10 years indeed.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by: DragonUSMC
oh no i completely agree... that is what war is. I mean i've seen some pretty nasty stuff and probably will have nightmares about the things i saw and things i did for the rest of my life... but this isnt Vietnam...

My Master Gunns did 3 tours in Nam. I was thankful he was with us out there... he told us stories about real war. He's seen hells that i couldnt imagine. He would stand out in the open with incomming mortars and rockets and just kinda chuckle and smoke his stogie. 2 Bronze stars, 3 silver stars, 2 purple hearts, and the Navy Cross. He is on his 4th tour in Iraq... and he does it because he calls it a vacation from his wife's yard work.

I keep saying I'm done with this thread.... lol

Yeah there is no way this is like Vietnam. Still doesn't change a lot of the stuff that you are left to struggle with personally though. :-/

My grandfather was a paratrooper with the British airborne in WW2, he joined when he was 16 (lied about his age) in 1939, and survived the whole thing somehow. He spent 6 years of his life at WAR, with no break. I don't think anything going on today, or that I've seen comes close to some of the stuff he would talk about... on the rare occassions he did.

I come from a bit of a military family, both my grandfathers were WW2 vets actually, and one was a career military officer. My dad probably would have gone to vietnam, but he was to young and missed it.

[RJF]

Instead coming up with ideas to help the US Democrats are trying to stop the effort to stabilize Iraq and rescue the Middle East from a catastrophe.

I am an Iraqi. To me the possible consequences of this vote are terrifying. Just as we began to see signs of progress in my country the Democrats come and say, ‘Well, it’s not worth it.Time to leave’.

To the Democrats my life and the lives of twenty-five other million Iraqis are evidently not worth trying for. They shouldn’t expect us to be grateful for this.

For four years everybody made mistakes. The administration made mistakes and admitted them. My people and leaders made mistakes as well and we regret them.

But now, in the last two months, we have had a fresh start; a new strategy with new ideas and tactics. These were reached after studying previous mistakes and were designed to reverse the setbacks we witnessed in the course of this war.

This strategy, although its tools are not yet even fully deployed, is showing promising signs of progress.

General Petraeus said yesterday that things will get tougher before they get easier in Iraq. This is the sort of of fact-based, realistic assessment of the situation which politicians should listen to when they discuss the war thousands of miles away.

We must give this effort the chance it deserves. We should provide all the support necessary. We should heed constructive critique, not the empty rhetoric that the ‘war is lost.’

It is not lost. Quitting is not an option we can afford—not in America and definitely not in Iraq.

I said it before and I say it again; this war must be won. If it is not the world as you in the United States know it today (and as we here in Iraq dream for it to become) will exist only in books of history. The forces of extremism that we confront today are more determined, more resourceful, and more barbaric than the Nazi or the communists of the past. Add to that the weapons they can improvise or acquire through their unholy alliance with rogue regimes, combined with their fluid structure and mobility… well, they can be more deadly than any forces we have faced in the past. Much more.

The political game the Democrats are playing has gone farther than it should have. Before they took over the congress they were complaining that there had been no feasible plan for winning the war. Now that such plan exists and thousands of American soldiers are working hard with the millions of good Iraqis to make it work, they wish to turn their backs on it.

I understood that by winning a majority in the legislature the Democrats were supposed to guide America to victory by correcting the mistakes of the past. Obviously I was wrong; they have put all their efforts into making sure the exact opposite outcome happens.

Just look at this one example of how the terrorists are going to make benefit from the defeatism of democrats. Al-Jazeera, the unofficial mouthpiece of al-Qaeda posted this on the same day the House passed the wretched bill:


Dadullah said: “Thank God, he is alive, we get updated information about it. Thank God, he plans the operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

In no time al-Qaeda and all similarly extremist factions will start boasting about how America is fleeing Iraq under the heavy blows of the “Mujahideen” planned by OBL himself.

The Democrats just offered al-Qaeda victory on a silver plate. For free. An imaginary victory for sure, for now, but it can still be used by al-Qaeda to promote their ideology of death and attract more recruits.

“America’s will can be broken, America is not invincible,” they will say in a thousand ways. Is this the kind of message you want to send to the enemy?

Reconsider your position before it’s too late. For us and for yourselves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Omar Fadhil is PJM’s Baghdad editor. His own blog is Iraq The Model http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

[cdlong]

The administration made mistakes and admitted them.

this is where i stopped paying attention.



seriously though, sending more troops is not a plan to end this war. sure, it might be progress, but a solution, no. this war has no goals. i think that's why democrats are so pissed off. we "won" this war 4 years ago. remember?
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/vstory.bush.banner.afp.jpg

this war will go on forever as long as other countries and terrorist organizations keeps sending people, material, and money into iraq. as long as we stay there, they will fight us. we need a political solution, the military can only do so much. iraq needs to stand on its own feet because that's the only way it will work, not because we want to leave.

[s13gold]

its about time but the damage is done.

[cdlong]

huh?

message length

['90RPS13]

I am kinda lost. I thought the war in the Middle East was over Jearusalem and the Holy Land. But then I recall Al Quida flying planes into the Twins and thats why we flew over. I guess I am all fucked up on the situation. I am 110% supportive of our troops and everytime I hear someone knock them, we go into a verbal arguement. +76876769786862234 for the troops in the Middle East and all US Armed Forces in the World.

[DragonUSMC]

Here is one… Just a yesterday I was accused to being the sole reason for the problems in Iraq.

He said because I am a Marine and support my brothers and sisters in arms, that I am the reason for all the death of the innocents over there. And that I, simply being in the military means that I blindly follow and believe that my political “leaders” are right and just. I tried to explain that when you are actually on the ground doing the job that it is very easy to separate yourself from the political BS that constantly goes on. That even though my day to day accomplishments in Iraq might have been small and trifle to those in the US or the rest of the world… that they meant the world to that one person that day. Because of that I feel my accomplishments for one day in Iraq amounted to more then a year of my executive and legislative branch combined.

He basically blasted me again saying that I cannot separate myself from the current executive branches political addenda’s because I am their pawn. And that I’m responsible for the deaths over there… I asked him to name someone, anyone, just give me a name of someone who died over there because of me. He looked at me funny and I started rattling off name of a few friends of mine who died out there. I told him if he wants to use the deaths of the people over there as an argument point then he better start naming some fuking names and not calling my friends by a fuking number.

Anyway… just a rant… I said a few more harsh things because he was tying to say I cannot comprehend the “death” over there and the problems I caused. I told him about watching my buddy try and scoop the insides of our other friend back in his body to keep him alive…

America isn’t at war… the Marines are at war, America is at the fuking mall.
(sorry other branch members, that includes you guys too)

[Phlip]

I have learned a new debate tactic from discussions of this war down through these 4+ long years... Here is an example:
"Hey Phillip, I don't really like those shoes..."
"WHY DON'T YOU SUPPORT THE TROOPS?!!?"

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51367/

[cdlong]

Here is one… Just a yesterday I was accused to being the sole reason for the problems in Iraq.

He said because I am a Marine and support my brothers and sisters in arms, that I am the reason for all the death of the innocents over there. And that I, simply being in the military means that I blindly follow and believe that my political “leaders” are right and just. I tried to explain that when you are actually on the ground doing the job that it is very easy to separate yourself from the political BS that constantly goes on. That even though my day to day accomplishments in Iraq might have been small and trifle to those in the US or the rest of the world… that they meant the world to that one person that day. Because of that I feel my accomplishments for one day in Iraq amounted to more then a year of my executive and legislative branch combined.

He basically blasted me again saying that I cannot separate myself from the current executive branches political addenda’s because I am their pawn. And that I’m responsible for the deaths over there… I asked him to name someone, anyone, just give me a name of someone who died over there because of me. He looked at me funny and I started rattling off name of a few friends of mine who died out there. I told him if he wants to use the deaths of the people over there as an argument point then he better start naming some fuking names and not calling my friends by a fuking number.

Anyway… just a rant… I said a few more harsh things because he was tying to say I cannot comprehend the “death” over there and the problems I caused. I told him about watching my buddy try and scoop the insides of our other friend back in his body to keep him alive…

America isn’t at war… the Marines are at war, America is at the fuking mall.
(sorry other branch members, that includes you guys too)

while that sucks and that guy is an idiot, he's right in a way. the military is a tool of the govetnment. but if you hit yourself in the thumb with a hammer, you don't blame the hammer, you blame the one swinging it. to blame marines or the military as a whole for civilian deaths over there is crap.

[DragonUSMC]

"Hey Phillip, I don't really like those shoes..."
"WHY DON'T YOU SUPPORT THE TROOPS?!!?"

This is the best example EVER!

I will have to start using this in my day to day conversations...