Anti-fun systems to become Federally required on new cars.

[Yuri]

Stability control systems are going to be required on all new cars starting in 2009. Already people are upset.
Not because you won't be able to get a car without stability control, but because they think that adding stability control simply isn't enough, and cars should be required to be equipped with automatic braking and traction control systems.
I'm against this.
I prefer to be able to control my car beyond it's limits, rather than have the car take away power and apply the brakes when traction is lost.
Granted, it would be a good idea for all those people who roll their SUV's while juggling their cellphone and Triple-shot non-fat soy latte, but what about people who actually enjoy driving?
Somehow I can't see stability control on a Lotus Elise.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/04/01/rollover_rules.reut/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/04/05/crash_prevention/index.html

[FaLKoN240]

That's fucking gay.

But we all know the government has to do what it can to ensure the public doesn't run around trying to kill itself.

[aa87]

Haha, on my buddies old rx8, the traction control bs was the reason he nearly got into a few accidents, it would go wild in the rain while regular driving.

[Yuri]

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/0702/gallery.future_safety/6.html

[FaLKoN240]

Ugh robot cars? What's the point in having a fun car then? :(

[C. Senor]

haha they wanna take the lexus self parking a step forward....that self parking is pretty tight...but i would think that traction control really would help alot because not all people are suited to even try to push a car past its limits....i'm pretty sure the more sports minded cars will have a way to shut that off....if not, then that totally sucks.

[axiomatik]

Driving enthusiasts might not be pleased, but studies have shown that ESPs may be the single most effective safety development since the seat belt. On cars fitted with ESP, fatal accidents have been shown to be substantially reduced.

Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Stability_Control)

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) later issued its own study that concluded the widespread application of ESC could save 7,000 lives a year.

That's 20 people a day. You have to remember, the general driving populace is very dumb. Something like 50,000 people a year die in car accidents.

Besides, I'm sure people will figure out how to defeat them.

[Phlip]

Reason number 50bamillion to never own a brand new car

[exitspeed]

I'm with nbrindley on this one.

I don't mind it for the gen public.

I still hope we can get cars with maybe a less aggressive "control" over our actions.

[mRclARK1]

For the average driver... nothing wrong with something that improves safety.

Meh... any system can be removed or bypassed or disabled. It's just a matter of finding a way. Someone out there will do no less with this.

[s13gold]

that should only be in effect to suv's or vehicle's with high rollover risk.

[ixfxi]

haha they wanna take the lexus self parking a step forward....that self parking is pretty tight...

that self parking is the biggest waste of shit, since sliced SHIT.

jesus, i cant believe i actually heard someone say something GOOD about this bullshit robotic parking. its called pick up your panties and learn to fucking park. if you cant manage this, you should be beaten to life.

[Irukandji]

Ugh robot cars? What's the point in having a fun car then? :(


For the fashion duhhhhhh

[ONYX S-13]

any system can be removed or bypassed or disabled. It's just a matter of finding a way. Someone out there will do no less with this.

Agree...I bet though it'll be a huge fine if law enforcement finds out that you've removed a safety device (on purpose).. Kinda like it's against the law to remove a steering wheel from a car that came with air bags.


Reason number 50bamillion to never own a brand new car

+1

[articdragon192]

Pretty lame. I can only hope there are no system malfunction and such. Reason to why I will forever love 90s cars. People just need to learn how to fucking drive.

[mrmephistopheles]

Yet another reason I like the Japanese gov't better than the US gov't.
Here, they make laws that prevent you from hurting others, but don't give a fuck what you do to yourself.

[DRavenS13]

why can't they leave it the way it is, and then stupid drivers can take themselves out? Best way to thin out the herd....

[eastcoastS14]

lol i was against paddle shifters on manual cars when they first started showing up so im really against this.....pretty soon we are all gonna have those cars from IROBOT new cars are turning into fucking living rooms with wheels...god forbid you take the time to learn how to drive ur car instead drive like a tard on your cell phone and let the car save ur ass if you get in trouble

[drift-it]

id rather have 20 less people per day. even if new cars have stability control. sorry

[exitspeed]

that self parking is the biggest waste of shit, since sliced SHIT.

jesus, i cant believe i actually heard someone say something GOOD about this bullshit robotic parking. its called pick up your panties and learn to fucking park. if you cant manage this, you should be beaten to life.

If you could afford one you wouldn't hate it.

Come on. Most people think driving is the most boring and biggest waste of time in the world. It's execs who are busy as hell that buy these cars (not jack ass haters on Zilvia). They'd rather not concern themselves with such a mundane tasks if they don't have to. You don't get rich by knowing how to parallel park.

And might I add. You need to find some salvation man.

[ripnbst]

I'll bet all the cars that come equipped with these systems will just have a button on the dash to disable it. Especially the performance vehicles. Same way with traction control systems. Everyone concerned with how to disable it needn't worry.

[S14DB]

That Lexus self park does not work. Go test drive a car and watch it freak out and shut down.

Car people like us only make up a small portion of drivers. I would rather have this on all cars then be crashed into on a rainy night.

Also, don't act like you are some hardcore race driver if you 240 is not a dedicated track car. There have been many tests and not many people can out drive ABS. Sport cars will always have a way whether OEM or aftermarket to disable T/C systems. But, don't act like you are some hardcore racer when you just DD your 240. T/C systems are designed for 99% of drivers out there and seeing how many imports end up in ditches, with good reason.

[Replicant_S14]

Car people like us only make up a small portion of drivers. I would rather have this on all cars then be crashed into on a rainy night.

Yup, if you hang out on car forums, it's easy to get into the mindset that most people are car nuts like us. They aren't. To most people, probably in the high 90s percentage wise, cars are appliances or at best fashion accessories.

Also, don't act like you are some hardcore race driver if you 240 is not a dedicated track car. There have been many tests and not many people can out drive ABS. Sport cars will always have a way whether OEM or aftermarket to disable T/C systems. But, don't act like you are some hardcore racer when you just DD your 240. T/C systems are designed for 99% of drivers out there and seeing how many imports end up in ditches, with good reason.

I wish mine was abs and I, at least occasionally, track the damn thing.

Also, as esc/traction control technology gets better, there will be an aftermarket for people who want to tweak it. Chips, re-flashes and all that could potentially be very cool.

The technology itself is fine. The only thing I don't like is the idea of it being mandated by government. It pretty much kills my hope of having another light-weight, affordable, rwd coupe.

[S14DB]

Yep there is already a chip/box for Corvette TCS systems that acts as a launch control and TC like in F1 cars. Manufacturer clams it will improve your times over TC disabled.

[articdragon192]

The thing is, even with some systems disabled, it still tries to compensate for you. I've driven sever Bimmers and Benzes and taken off the traction control. Once the car starts sliding, it still slightly intervenes, and it pisses the fuck out of me because I'm making the car do one thing and expecting it to do what I want it, and the system comes in and totally fucks with what I want to do. But it's freaking off! I see the system flashing telling me it's doing something. WTF.

[Yuri]

A lot of ESC systems can't totally be defeated.
As for just switching them off, why would the government go through the hassle of mandating them on every car, when you can just flip a switch and turn them off?
Can you turn off your driver's side airbag or your emissions controls?

It's already been predicted that with next generation driver's aids, the car will be safer when the human element is removed.
How long before full computer control on new cars is mandated?
How long before driving your own car is a federal offense?
Maybe I'm over reacting a little bit, but car enthusiasts are one of the country's largest special interest groups, and no one except for SEMA's lobbyists seem to care about what we want.

[exitspeed]

A lot of ESC systems can't totally be defeated.
As for just switching them off, why would the government go through the hassle of mandating them on every car, when you can just flip a switch and turn them off?
Can you turn off your driver's side airbag or your emissions controls?

It's already been predicted that with next generation driver's aids, the car will be safer when the human element is removed.
How long before full computer control on new cars is mandated?
How long before driving your own car is a federal offense?
Maybe I'm over reacting a little bit, but car enthusiasts are one of the country's largest special interest groups, and no one except for SEMA's lobbyists seem to care about what we want.

Just thinking out loud here:
We all say "Keep it on the track.". I bet if we searched on here how many times that has been said it would be nuts.

So if the gov says, you can have any car you want that doesn't have ESC system's you want. You just have to "keep it on the track."

Basically what we're all saying is that we are hypocrites.

I guess it sucks that they make that a law, but if we all feel that way, then what's the big deal?

What is bad about that is that then you have to have a dedicated car for racing. You can't have the STi in the drive that's good at the grocery store and on the track on the weekends.

There has to be some happy median here.

[S14DB]

I don't find SAN/SEMA to care about any new cars. All their press releases seem to be about protecting Mussel cars.

[drift freaq]

The sky is falling the sky is falling run hide. cry. Give me a fucking break. You read one or two news articles with about stuff thats being speculated on in the fucking article and you make it sound like gospel across the board for motor vehicle out there. If you read the article you will realize the majority of the proposed implementations are pointed at SUV's and crossovers. Nowhere does the article siite an actual legislative bill or legal requirement for the Automakers do to this stuff. The article is poor written and basically media hype on CNN's part. LOL.
You guys are push overs. Do you realize its almost mid 2007 which means 2008 year models are already starting to roll off assembly lines. Do you realize that it takes the automakers more than one model year to implement major mechanical changes i.e. installing a traction control system in every single car they make. Do you realize OBDII was announced a full 3-4 years before implementation so automakers could bring their cars up to speed, hence the reason Nissan had OBDII cars implemented by mid 95?
I think there is a lot of over reaction going on here. Gee sounds like typical Zilvia to me.

[mRclARK1]

^^^I agree with most of what you're saying. IMHO though it's just a small step towards a larger implementation of this kind of thing. I don't know if full on computer driven cars is going to become reality; but I think just the ever looming possibility of it, and similar things, are what has people like us a little upset.

Meh... It won't stop me from having fun with my vehicles in any case. Besides my first love for cars has always been antique/classic european cars. My dream car will never be affected. lol

If it comes down to a debate of Public auto safety vs. Auto special interest groups... we'll lose every time, and we really should too I suppose.

[godzillarb]

You guys need to think a little bit before hating on this stuff like others have said. We will always find a way to disable said devices if necessary, while the average dumbass on a cell phone might have a slightly higher probability of not hitting my car.

Most people hate driving, thats why they're reading, eating, putting on makeup, talking, having sex, ect. while driving instead of just enjoying it and paying attention. Maybe we'd be safer if some of these idiot's cars were dumbed down...

[vvtisupra]

Actually I work for an Automobile Safety Research company and I've done research that has gone into the papers and proposals to promote ESC being implemented on all cars by 2009. Originally I think NHTSA was aiming for 2012 but there is no reason cars can't have the ESC system ealier. ESC does save lives and is a simple system that uses a YAW sensor (cars should already have this for side curtain airbags), wheel speed sensors and the existing ABS motor. Toyota has already jumped onto the band wagon and other companies such as Volvo, BMW, Audi, Subaru and Mercedes offer it or make it standard on 90% of their vehicles. Its not hard since most of the systems can be adopted by existing cars in the fleet. 2009 is definately not a far cry for help. Most of our testing, and research is confidential because it involves law suits etc. But I can definately tell you ESC works. Its sad to know that families are disabled for life because of 50 dollars of equipment, didn't go on a sister vehicle because the makers didn't feel it is cost effective.

On a side note there is a way to disable ESC on all cars, unplug the abs motor. ( I am not responsible for you eating shit though.)

[vvtisupra]

Driving enthusiasts might not be pleased, but studies have shown that ESPs may be the single most effective safety development since the seat belt. On cars fitted with ESP, fatal accidents have been shown to be substantially reduced.

Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Stability_Control)



That's 20 people a day. You have to remember, the general driving populace is very dumb. Something like 50,000 people a year die in car accidents.

Besides, I'm sure people will figure out how to defeat them.


Our research has shown even higher percentages of people will be saved from accidents by ESC

[vvtisupra]

Haha, on my buddies old rx8, the traction control bs was the reason he nearly got into a few accidents, it would go wild in the rain while regular driving.


Traction control, AYC, and limited slip differentials have nothing to do with ESC.

[ixfxi]

If you could afford one you wouldn't hate it.

Come on. Most people think driving is the most boring and biggest waste of time in the world. It's execs who are busy as hell that buy these cars (not jack ass haters on Zilvia). They'd rather not concern themselves with such a mundane tasks if they don't have to. You don't get rich by knowing how to parallel park.

And might I add. You need to find some salvation man.

04-17-2007 06:24 AM Holly fuck dude settle down. Why don't you kill yourself already. You have nothing but hateful comments on here.

Hate the negativity, i could care less.. a fact is a fact. If you dont know how to park your own POS of shit, then you shouldnt be driving. Busy EXEC? As in BUSY EXECUTIVE? Since when are executives too busy to fucking park their own PILE of SHIT. How about this, get a fucking driver. Better yet, get a black driver and restart slavery.

All of these safety systems are great, they should be permanent on EVERY SUV and shit sedan. Leave the RWD sportscars alone or make it optional. Thing is, just incase you all havent noticed, they CANT be fully disabled - its always partial.

Either way, no sense in complaining about it. There are too few NEW cars that I would ever consider owning. So, if you people are in the market for NEW cars - you should check your pants, you're probably a metrosexual.

[theicecreamdan]

How about, instead of 6 hours of driver's ed in a classroom, and another 6 hours behind the wheel with some guy who basically doesn't give a shit. We make driver's ed actually hard? I don't believe that the privilege to drive should be handed out like its nothing. People that legitimately can not figure out how to drive can get lucky on those driving "tests" the DMV gives you.

People should be required to write essays that demonstrate critical thinking, you should have to have physicals, you should be required to learn first aid skills. Oh wait, I'm sorry that would be hard, nobody would agree to that. If you don't have time to dedicate towards being a safe and intelligent driver, then you do not have the time to be driving on my roads.

[s13gold]

dont worrry, preettty soon in the near future, the government will have your driving locations obsolete once we make transport station portals...hehehe..

technology wont let us drive.

[exitspeed]

Hate the negativity, i could care less.. a fact is a fact. If you dont know how to park your own POS of shit, then you shouldnt be driving. Busy EXEC? As in BUSY EXECUTIVE? Since when are executives too busy to fucking park their own PILE of SHIT. How about this, get a fucking driver. Better yet, get a black driver and restart slavery.

All of these safety systems are great, they should be permanent on EVERY SUV and shit sedan. Leave the RWD sportscars alone or make it optional. Thing is, just incase you all havent noticed, they CANT be fully disabled - its always partial.

Either way, no sense in complaining about it. There are too few NEW cars that I would ever consider owning. So, if you people are in the market for NEW cars - you should check your pants, you're probably a metrosexual.

A fact is a fact. But when you put it the way you do it's not a fact, it's you're fucking weak, hateful opinion. People are busy. They don't like to drive. That's a fact. That's the point of the system.

I'll agree, leave the RWD cars alone. I don't think anyone here is disputing that.

[cdlong]

Traction control, AYC, and limited slip differentials have nothing to do with ESC.

true, but TC is another driving nanny. he's just implying that ESC could cause problems too.

i disagree though. unless the system malfunctions or the programming is terrible, it won't cause a problem. the rx8 probably didn't have enough traction to work with, if the TC was off, the tires would have spun and the car still wouldn't go anywhere and you'd still be in danger. that's just poor decision making by the driver, nothing can overcome low traction.

[ixfxi]

A fact is a fact. But when you put it the way you do it's not a fact, it's you're fucking weak, hateful opinion. People are busy. They don't like to drive. That's a fact. That's the point of the system.

"Its HOW you say it Mike, its so rude"

What is this emotional BULLSHIT? Men dont care about that, only men equipped with vaginas do. Sandy vaginas, at that.

If people are "too busy" to learn to PARK their cars, and "too busy" to safely DRIVE their cars, then they shouldnt be "too busy" to keep their piece of shit computer cars away from mine. Just incase you havent realized it, most of the accidents on the road happen because people are "too busy" and rushing to get to where they need to be. Carelessness. Haste. Cell phones. And girls with HUGE fuckin distracting asses. These are ALL reasons why accidents are caused.

Wake up people, WAKE UP. Big butts are here to stay, people just need to slow the fuck down, put down that cell phone - and enjoy the view.

[azndoc]

In my opinion in LA some people should be issued bus passes for the ways that they drive. Traction control is safe but puts driving on a whole level of gayness. Damn the government trying to regulate everything for us even for something that is obvious to those of us who love the actual feeling of driving.

When someone tells me to drive safe. I always tell them its not me it's everyone else that drives crazy.

[theicecreamdan]

Hate the negativity, i could care less.. a fact is a fact.

A fact is something like "50,000 people per year crash their cars while trying to park."

Your "fact" is more like "50,000 people per year are giant bags of ass because they can't park their own car."
You're applying your own judgements to science and creating "facts" that suit you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

In the end the simple solution is for these "busy execs" to pull their heads out of their pompous asses and spend some time learning how to operate a motor vehicle before they decide to drive themselves to work everyday.

The government's solution is to put a bunch of engineers to work to develop a system that can do all the driving for the masses of stupid people. The problem here is that for our economy to function at the level we have it at, we need the fat stupid lazy people to be at work breathing at least 40 hours a week. The way to do that is take away all of their abilities to make stupid decisions.

[drift freaq]

Actually I work for an Automobile Safety Research company and I've done research that has gone into the papers and proposals to promote ESC being implemented on all cars by 2009. Originally I think NHTSA was aiming for 2012 but there is no reason cars can't have the ESC system ealier. ESC does save lives and is a simple system that uses a YAW sensor (cars should already have this for side curtain airbags) and the existing ABS motor. Toyota has already jumped onto the band wagon and other companies such as Volvo, BMW, Audi, Subaru and Mercedes offer it or make it standard on 90% of their vehicles. Its not hard since most of the systems can be adopted by existing cars in the fleet. 2009 is definately not a far cry for help. Most of our testing, and research is confidential because it involves law suits etc. But I can definately tell you ESC works. Its sad to know that families are disabled for life because of 50 dollars of equipment, didn't go on a sister vehicle because the makers didn't feel it is cost effective.

On a side note there is a way to disable ESC on all cars, unplug the abs motor. ( I am not responsible for you eating shit though.)
Now this post is more fact and less bullshit unlike the CNN report that was basically a blurb with speculation leading to more speculation by people here.
I applaud you VVTSupra for bringing more light to the subject and in fact showing that my chicken little statement was correct. Its not the scary system people here seem to be envisioning based on their lack of knowledge of the reality. Which you have choosen to enlighten us with. In fact the reality sounds quite reasonable and I see no problem in it. Like usual most people here want everyone to stick with outdated technology that they like rather than seeing the future and its possabilities.
What makes it even more funny is the fact that most of the people here are down for the latest and greatest computers but when it comes to car technology they want to revel in 10-20 year old technology. Ironic.

[midnight zenki]

Driving enthusiasts might not be pleased, but studies have shown that ESPs may be the single most effective safety development since the seat belt. On cars fitted with ESP, fatal accidents have been shown to be substantially reduced.

Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Stability_Control)



That's 20 people a day. You have to remember, the general driving populace is very dumb. Something like 50,000 people a year die in car accidents.

Besides, I'm sure people will figure out how to defeat them.

With all due respect this is an issue of survival of the fittest. If these people can't be trusted to manually operate thier vehicle then do you really want them to be driving in the first place? Or is the vehicles design inherently flawed and need revising, i.e. rolly polley SUV's.

Nanny laws and institutions only aid in preserving the stupid gene in the human race and the dumbasses that survive only further to bring the rest of us down to subsist on thier level. If so many people fail at driving it might be a good idea to revise our driving license standards. Also to play the numbers game, one must realize that as the population exponentialy increases so does the number of any events that are associated with that rise. Coincedently this also includes accidents and deaths on the road.

Now think about seat belt laws; we all know they save lives, everybody, yet people still die from not wearing them. Similarly helmet laws echo my previous statement. If your dumb enough to ignore blatant saftey practices then you deserve to wreck/die in a firey heap:fawk2:

[vvtisupra]

Imagine your mom just picked up your little brother from school. She is driving her Expedition down the highway and hitting a patch of black ice, or standing puddle, or a patch of oil, which throws her into a counter clockwise yaw leading to a passenger side leading roll. Curtain airbags go off she is belted and so is your brother but your mom has a severe concussion and your brother was partially ejected and was crushed by the rollover. Is your family fucked because they weren't fit enough to survive? Or they deserved to die because they weren't smart enough for Darwin and didn't buy the 4000 dollar package that includes ESC amongst the leather, captains chair, cd player and navigation that they couldn't afford ?

Some of you guys are so senseless. Most accidents don't occur because they were trying to drift, or because you're too cool for school, or they don't know how to drive.

Some of you people need to get over yourself and your "driving skillzors." Just because you think you know what to do in certain situations doesn't make you safer than the next person. Just because you've placed top 10 in D1 won't save you.

[midnight zenki]

Imagine your mom just picked up your little brother from school. She is driving her Expedition down the highway and hitting a patch of black ice, or standing puddle, or a patch of oil, which throws her into a counter clockwise yaw leading to a passenger side leading roll. Curtain airbags go off she is belted and so is your brother but your mom has a severe concussion and your brother was partially ejected and was crushed by the rollover. Is your family fucked because they weren't fit enough to survive? Or they deserved to die because they weren't smart enough for Darwin and didn't buy the 4000 dollar package that includes ESC amongst the leather, captains chair, cd player and navigation that they couldn't afford ?

Some of you guys are so senseless. Most accidents don't occur because they were trying to drift, or because you're too cool for school, or they don't know how to drive.

Some of you people need to get over yourself and your "driving skillzors." Just because you think you know what to do in certain situations doesn't make you safer than the next person. Just because you've placed top 10 in D1 won't save you.

Thank you for filling the blank that I knew someone would.

The point is not that I am a superior driver and all else are inferior, I too am all too aware of un-controlable situations. However what I am driving at here is that the continual intervention of the government is not always the answer.

To answer your question of being fit to survive, the situation you described was an act of nature and that happens, in that case they were apparently not. On a side note if you get cancer theoreticly your genes are inferior and you are not fit to survive. If this happens to me, you or Jesus himself guess what your not fit to survive.

However ice and loss of traction can't be regained (while on the slippery surface) even by goverment mandated electronic controls. When you invent a device that ejects spikes out of the tires to regain control let me know:love:

Gas is flammable, bullets kill, cars crash and no matter what it will all continue to happen. All I am saying is that is this truly the solution to the problem or merely a band-aid?

[ixfxi]

A fact is something like "50,000 people per year crash their cars while trying to park."

Your "fact" is more like "50,000 people per year are giant bags of ass because they can't park their own car."
You're applying your own judgements to science and creating "facts" that suit you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

I'm not applying my own judgement to science, I'm applying it to life. There is no reason to have a bunch of the "ammenities" cars are sold with nowadays.

Turning headlamps? Bullshit.
Automatic seatbelt extenders so that you can easily reach your seatbelt? BULLSHIT.
Navigation? Learn to use google maps.
Power windows in a small car? Lean over fat fuck, roll them down.
Dual climate control? Wear a fucking sweater.
Automatic wipers? Yeah, must be very tough to press a switch.
Automatic roof for convertible? YOU'RE FAT.
Windows that raise slighly to create an extra seal? Fuck that.
Cars equipped with "pre-catalytic converters" Useless.

Give in to the technology... its worth every penny, bitches!

[theicecreamdan]

Traction can't always be regained, but keeping as much control as possible is the point of these systems.

[theicecreamdan]

I'm not applying my own judgement to science, I'm applying it to life. There is no reason to have a bunch of the "ammenities" cars are sold with nowadays.

Turning headlamps? Bullshit.
Automatic seatbelt extenders so that you can easily reach your seatbelt? BULLSHIT.
Navigation? Learn to use google maps.
Power windows in a small car? Lean over fat fuck, roll them down.
Dual climate control? Wear a fucking sweater.
Automatic wipers? Yeah, must be very tough to press a switch.
Automatic roof for convertible? YOU'RE FAT.
Windows that raise slighly to create an extra seal? Fuck that.
Cars equipped with "pre-catalytic converters" Useless.

Give in to the technology... its worth every penny, bitches!

At what point do you tell people to stop using and improving technology?
Here's one for you, ride a bike. Or is that too much technology?

Your arguments have no logical backing to them, and they aren't funny either.

[axiomatik]

With all due respect this is an issue of survival of the fittest. If these people can't be trusted to manually operate thier vehicle then do you really want them to be driving in the first place?

it would be great if stupid people only killed themselves, but the problem is, they often take others with them. and what about all the non-stupid people who are killed or injured in accidents every day? for example, a person is driving along when a deer jumps out in front of them, they swerve, but in the process lose control of their car.

[ixfxi]

At what point do you tell people to stop using and improving technology?
Here's one for you, ride a bike. Or is that too much technology?

Your arguments have no logical backing to them, and they aren't funny either.

oh boo fucking hoo... do you work on your own car(s)? if you did, you'de easily realize how often technology fails. yeah, vista rocks, right? no thanks, i'll wait.

you cant control technology, but you can control what we, the consumers, buy. companies are always trying to come at consumers with some angle or sales pitch, it just depends.. is it worth it, or is garbage? there are certain features that are just STUPID. you cant deny it. having a car park itself is stupid, no matter how you cut it.

bah whats the use, you probably consider olive garden good italian food. fuckin san diego, land of suburbia.

[theicecreamdan]

Yeah, I work on my own cars all the time. I also work other people's cars for side jobs. Just because its hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

You probably think Thai food is too strange. Fuckin old people.

[swift_style]

Here, they make laws that prevent you from hurting others, but don't give a fuck what you do to yourself.
ooh yeah. that sounds good. But robotic control cars.....hmmm.. I don't like the sound of it, but for those drunk drivers, maybe.

[S14DB]

oh boo fucking hoo... do you work on your own car(s)? if you did, you'de easily realize how often technology fails. yeah, vista rocks, right? no thanks, i'll wait.

you cant control technology, but you can control what we, the consumers, buy. companies are always trying to come at consumers with some angle or sales pitch, it just depends.. is it worth it, or is garbage? there are certain features that are just STUPID. you cant deny it. having a car park itself is stupid, no matter how you cut it.

bah whats the use, you probably consider olive garden good italian food. fuckin san diego, land of suburbia.
Why can't we control technology? We can't control what we make? When did technology gain free will?

[midnight zenki]

it would be great if stupid people only killed themselves, but the problem is, they often take others with them. and what about all the non-stupid people who are killed or injured in accidents every day? for example, a person is driving along when a deer jumps out in front of them, they swerve, but in the process lose control of their car.

Shit happens, theres no doubt about it, people will always die whether behind the wheel or maybe by actually by being gored by the dear on a hike, this is not the point.

These anti skid systems work and do work well, this is not a debated fact either. Ultimatley when these systems are mandated and considered as illegal to not have operational after a certain year I have a problem. I enjoy my ability to make smart choices and if I feel that I don't need the DOT driving my car for me than I have that right. This comes down to personal freedoms and the continued repealing of them by bearucratic shit like this:bash:

[Yuri]

Live fast.
Die young.
Leave a corpse that looks like hamburger.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/Yurikaze/blowerbentley.jpg
^I bet he had more fun driving this beast at 60mph than we would driving the latest computer-controlled commuting appliance at twice that speed.
This country has always emphasized individuality. Not everyone likes to do the same things, some people like a sense a thrill with their driving.

Some people would prefer to drive a Lotus 7 and say screw safety.
Other people like to be cocooned in their car.
Stability control saves lives.
So does not smoking, not drinking, and not having sex.
We get to choose whether we do these or not.
Safety devices like airbags and seatbelts don't interfer with the actual driving of the car.
I just think we should be able to have the choice to delete or disable the stability control if we don't want it, without fear of breaking the law.
My Jag has stability control, and you can turn it off. I leave it on for commuting, but can completly switch it off going for spirited drives in the mountains when I feel like kicking the tail out.
I like my freedom of choice thank you very much.

[bamaboy]

I'm not applying my own judgement to science, I'm applying it to life. There is no reason to have a bunch of the "ammenities" cars are sold with nowadays.

Turning headlamps? Bullshit.
Automatic seatbelt extenders so that you can easily reach your seatbelt? BULLSHIT.
Navigation? Learn to use google maps.
Power windows in a small car? Lean over fat fuck, roll them down.
Dual climate control? Wear a fucking sweater.
Automatic wipers? Yeah, must be very tough to press a switch.
Automatic roof for convertible? YOU'RE FAT.
Windows that raise slighly to create an extra seal? Fuck that.
Cars equipped with "pre-catalytic converters" Useless.

Give in to the technology... its worth every penny, bitches!

you really are mildly retarded aren't you........
turning headlamps....good for people who have less than perfect vision while driving at night. I guess if you wear glasses you should take the bus right
navigation- oh yeah, fumbling with maps and trying to remember what road to turn on while driving through big ass cities you aren't familiar with then missing your exit and swerving to hopefully avoid having to take the wrong exit and turn around, praying you don't get off in the ghetto, and wrecking into a church van full of old ladies from mississippi going to deliver sweaters they knitted to homeless kids.....yeah.....that sounds a whole lot better
power windows mmmhmm.... lean over your gear shifter and your steering wheel to let some air in.......wreck into the same van full of old ladies, roll up windows sound really good again
dual climate control this feature would be found convenient for to women, but seeing your attitude it's no wonder you've never experienced any kind of mutual feelings of attraction from a female, atleast one that you didn't have to blow up or pay a subscription for
Automatic wipers? I guess you just need something to pick on huh.... I bet the 2 ounces this device weighs is really killing your 60 foot times
Automatic roof for convertible? you know stopping in the rain to close your roof is real convenient, an I'm sure all old people are in really good physical shape and can easily close their convertible on their on
Windows that raise slighly to create an extra seal? whats your problem here
Cars equipped with "pre-catalytic converters" you must be against everything environmentally good, and an asshole.....I hear that's a rare combination in a super skilled race car driver like you

[ixfxi]

you really are mildly retarded aren't you........
turning headlamps....good for people who have less than perfect vision while driving at night. I guess if you wear glasses you should take the bus right[/b]

"take the bus at right" or night? tard. there's no use for headlamps that turn. that shit was tried back in the day, they're doing it again for shits'n'giggles to make money off of idiots such as you. there's NO reason for a headlamp to turn, it will just reduce the longevity of the headlamp. but then again, what do newschoolers such as yourself know? i'm sure you just picked up your brand new "240sx" the other day, right?

navigation- oh yeah, fumbling with maps and trying to remember what road to turn on while driving through big ass cities you aren't familiar with then missing your exit and swerving to hopefully avoid having to take the wrong exit and turn around, praying you don't get off in the ghetto, and wrecking into a church van full of old ladies from mississippi going to deliver sweaters they knitted to homeless kids.....yeah.....that sounds a whole lot better

OH NO, god forbid we end up in THE GHETTO. I hear there are black people there! How fucking scary! Gimme a fuckin break, how weaksauce can you be? Learn to navigate. Before you take'off somewhere, jot your drive down. Too much to handle? Thought so pussy...


power windows mmmhmm.... lean over your gear shifter and your steering wheel to let some air in.......wreck into the same van full of old ladies, roll up windows sound really good again

I agree. Chewing bubble gum and walking is fucking TOUGH! Be careful bro-ski, dont trip on a curb!


dual climate control this feature would be found convenient for to women, but seeing your attitude it's no wonder you've never experienced any kind of mutual feelings of attraction from a female, atleast one that you didn't have to blow up or pay a subscription for

You're right, I dont get any pussy. My bad. I've never been with a girl before. TEAR...


Automatic wipers? I guess you just need something to pick on huh.... I bet the 2 ounces this device weighs is really killing your 60 foot times

Yeah, I guess cars like the Lotus Elise are light because they're fitted with ALL the bells and whistles, right? ALL the light-weight cars have ALL the ammenities, RIGHT? You're so mistaken. Look at all the pure-bred cars, they ditch all the garbage for purity. But then again, I doubt you've ever re-wired a car from scratch, because you would know this shit. Lemme guess, you have a mechanic, dont you? Admit it!


Automatic roof for convertible? you know stopping in the rain to close your roof is real convenient, an I'm sure all old people are in really good physical shape and can easily close their convertible on their on

Cool! I guess every car should cator to old people then, with built-in seat heaters and foot massagers. Damn, you're pimp!


Windows that raise slighly to create an extra seal? whats your problem here

Your face.


Cars equipped with "pre-catalytic converters" you must be against everything environmentally good, and an asshole.....I hear that's a rare combination in a super skilled race car driver like you

After reading all your bullshit, I've come to ONE conclusion. You were the kid who's mom forced him to wear a fucking helmet, knee-gaurds and elbow gaurds anytime he went outside to PLAY. Oh yeah, dont pass the playground - you may end up in THE HOOD with the colored children. Now, you're an adult, STILL have child penis, and managed to find a girl that, the only reason she is with you is because she can walk all over your weak ass.

Fuckin pussy. MAN UP.

[bamaboy]

I wish I could meet some people in person just so I could see if they really have any balls or if they just hide behind key boards. All cars don't have to be race cars and some people prefer the luxury of the mentioned items. You on the other hand are just one of these self righteous people who think their own opinion should be reflected in every other person in the world. When did I mention black people or colored children??? When did I make this a racial debate? Ghettos come in all colors.....

Just to make you happy, I'll relate to some of your childish ass comments. I have no problem working on my own car, but some people do. I have no problem navigating my way through other cities, but my wife may and I would rest better knowing she had navigation to help her. Why would I rewire a car from scratch when I can buy one that doesn't suck ass to begin with. I will not carry on this e-feud anymore. I wish just once I could meet people like you face to face so I could see what you are really made of. Please forward all further responses to someone who gives a shit what your opinions are. Have a wonderful day and don't forget to wash behind your ears little man.

***and please note that I do not drive an s-chassis***

[adrians_s13]

I don't see how any of these implecations could be useful in a sports car (would almost contradict it's purpose), but I see it being effective in like SUV's.

My lil sister was making a right turn at an intersection with my dad's ford expedition and understeered 270 degrees right into a fire hydrant (during the rain). Don't ask how... (trust me, I tried figuring it out myself, no luck)
needless to say, if my dad's expedition had automatic braking or tcs or whatever to override my sister's panic followed by a heavy right foot, my dad's expedition's driverside door wouldn't look like a wreck..

[Phlip]

Why can't we control technology? We can't control what we make? When did technology gain free will?
In the Wachowski brothers's movies, "The Matrix," and the sequels to it technology did, causing a huge war that ruined the world, then repeated it several times, remember?

[theicecreamdan]

Traction control and Stability control contradict a sports cars purpose?

At what point does more horsepower and lighter body panels and stickier tires make any situation that having a well programmed system wouldn't make you faster?

There's no reason to get butthurt about any of this action, its not like the feds are mandating a retrofit of "anti-fun" systems onto all of your shitty cars.

[Phlip]

*snip*
Hey Mike, could you PLEASE dial back the arguing with everyone in every thread everywhere thing?
To a point, it is entertaining, but it is beginning to just get old.

... and I do not appreciate the "... in the hood with the colored children" comment one bit.

[ixfxi]

Hey Mike, could you PLEASE dial back the arguing with everyone in every thread everywhere thing?
To a point, it is entertaining, but it is beginning to just get old.

... and I do not appreciate the "... in the hood with the colored children" comment one bit.

i'm on a self-destructive mission to get myself banned from zilvia again. for some reason, and i cant figure out why, i want all the neg-rep i can get. i'm swinging at the fences lately. my apologies everybody, i'll relax.

now, in response to you not appreciating the colored comment, answer one question for me: what type of fuckin navigation system alerts the driver, when they are entering "the ghetto?"

the whole point of that sarcasm, is that NO navi setup will say "make a right on 142nd, oh and by the way... avoid MLK Blvd."

So now you guys are going to say, hoods or shady neighborhoods come in all colors. Yeah, thats true to some degree. TO SOME DEGREE... but cut the bullshit, every culture has shady individuals that fuckup and misrepresent their culture.

I know a lot of plain bread white folk who are afraid to step out of their normal surroundings and be a minority, and for what? stupidity. fear of another culture for NO good reason.

the colored comment wasnt pointed toward any culture in particular. it was basically saying that people shouldn't trip if they end up being in unfamiliar neighborhoods, regardless if its asian, black, hispanic, whatever. and the truth of the matter is, a navigation system AINT gonna help ya.

so yeah, fuck shit.

ps: if you fuckers are going to neg-rep me, atleast spell shit RIGHT. its "racist" not "racest"

[ixfxi]

When did I mention black people or colored children??? When did I make this a racial debate? Ghettos come in all colors.....

You didnt mention black people, you mentioned "the ghetto." And since you did mention ghetto, what type of ghetto has you so worried, that you are scared to "drive through" it?


I have no problem navigating my way through other cities, but my wife may and I would rest better knowing she had navigation to help her.

This topic is about adding all these "wonderful, luxurious, technological advancements" to sportscars - no one here is disagreeing about having these features on a camry. So rather than prove the point, you pass the torch and say your wife is the one who needs these things.. nice.


Why would I rewire a car from scratch when I can buy one that doesn't suck ass to begin with.

Because if you've ever re-wired a car from scratch before, you'de know that they have TONS of wires that need to be sent straight to the dumpster. Take an S13 for example, there's a lot of wiring in the auto seatbelts that are useless, and in a Z33 I'm sure you can nuke a lot of the traction control crap. and thats just to start with. The more you learn about cars, the more you realize how much excessive crap is underneath your dash. But I digress..


***and please note that I do not drive an s-chassis***

Neither do I. But thanks, I respect you a lot more now that I know you dont drive an s-chassis.

[McRussellPants]

Reason number 50bamillion to never own a brand new car

Reason 1-4,999,999 "being poor" of course... I mean, that is the excuse I have been using all this time.


All their press releases seem to be about protecting Mussel cars.

lol

http://dnr.state.il.us/orep/c2000/assessments/kishwaukee/images/rainbow_mussel.jpg



People are dumb, so it probably helps them stay alive. I can't agree with that since dumb people suck.


I also concur with everything Ixfxi said.

PS Yuri, rock it the fuck out.

Paris Dakar is baller because 1 person dies every time they race it.

250mph down the lemans straight for 24hrs blowing wimpy cars out of the way with your aero.

cheesing down bfe rally road in a Rolls Royce 16 cylinder on 75/125/20 wagon wheels.

FUCK YEAH.

It wouldn't be cool if it wasn't dumb.

[ixfxi]

http://partyscammers.com/watchvideo.php?vidname=shake113

shake in yo'face - thats what people think "the hood" is like.

[LB.Motoring]

I knew a very happy man who had a early T, he drove that thing till he died....

He never much liked new shit, he enjoyed his fun simple items in life...

http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/collection/groundvehicles/rolls_royce.jpg

[BOROSUN]

i just saw "beyond tomorrow" ~science channel featured about esp.
seems like an old episode. well... esp consist of 3 sensors:
the wheel sensor , steering wheel sensor, a chassis/body rotation sensor.
and they talk about implementing future cars as standard safety equipment.
they said its pretty cheap add on but, effective.

im pretty much sold on esp that it should be on every car standard, especially when
they did test a with a regular soccer mom host on a dirt course dodging cones and
wall with ESP off @ 70kph. well, the out come, she cant drive and spun the car.
with ESP(on) she avoids the wall and actually controlled the car or maybe the car controlled her. heh.

then i was just thinking about my wife which had done a couple of 180 and 280's on the road (scary), ESP could really help in such situations.

[bamaboy]

Stability control systems are going to be required on all new cars starting in 2009. Already people are upset.
Not because you won't be able to get a car without stability control, but because they think that adding stability control simply isn't enough, and cars should be required to be equipped with automatic braking and traction control systems.
I'm against this.
I prefer to be able to control my car beyond it's limits, rather than have the car take away power and apply the brakes when traction is lost.
Granted, it would be a good idea for all those people who roll their SUV's while juggling their cellphone and Triple-shot non-fat soy latte, but what about people who actually enjoy driving?
Somehow I can't see stability control on a Lotus Elise.

The topic was actually about all cars.......

This topic is about adding all these "wonderful, luxurious, technological advancements" to sportscars - no one here is disagreeing about having these features on a camry. So rather than prove the point, you pass the torch and say your wife is the one who needs these things.. nice.


you chose to make it about sports cars......

and in a Z33 I'm sure you can nuke a lot of the traction control crap
Why??? Mine completely turns off for fun, and it able to be reactivated with the push of a button for everyday driving and all weather driving. I do however understand that cars can be stripped of a lot of unnecessary weight when they are being modified for use in competition. I am with you there. I simply reacted because you declared all out war on several pieces of technology that saves lives, and not just the lives of people who have below average driving skills, but the innocent lives that they can affect by allowing themselves to be disstracted by cell phones and such. I am with you as to not mandating these things on all cars. I do feel like vehicles that breech (spelling) a certain weight level should be required to meet several safety requirements that could be aided by the use of the said equipment. Thanks for coming back with a level head about this. I enjoy a good debate and I should have approached this with less attitude. I apologize for insulting you and I appreciate everyones opinion on this topic.

[slownslurious]

I lot of people don't like airbags but because in most situations they save lives, they are now standard. traction/stability control will help... my only questions are these:
first off, how will people learn to control their cars beyond their limits? TSC will help but I think an important part of learning to be a better driver will be gone. Kids will get too cocky and fly into a corner so fast even TSC can't save their bacon and be like "understeer whaaaa--GUARDRAIL!"

Secondly, why the fuck are they making TSC standard when ABS still isn't required (and is not standard on a shocking number of even medium priced cars)? ABS defintely prevents accidents in the wet, especially for the crappy majority.

And third, who is bearing the cost of all this crap? We are. As cars require more and more safety stuff, their complexity goes up and their cost goes up. Even if you don't buy new cars, in a few years when you will be buying used cars with all this technology, my guess is that repair and maintenance costs will be going up because of the new technology as well. And I find it ironic that as the government mandates more safety features and safer cars (more and more weight, requiring more powerful engines to acheive the same performance) they are at the same time mandating better fuel economy. Oh, and not to mention the fact that we have new, strong, heavy, powerful cars ramming the 50% of older tin can cars on the road and tearing them in half. But maybe stability control would help that too.

Hmm where thats jerk off smiley when I need it?

[ixfxi]

Why??? Mine completely turns off for fun, and it able to be reactivated with the push of a button for everyday driving and all weather driving. I do however understand that cars can be stripped of a lot of unnecessary weight when they are being modified for use in competition. I am with you there.

actually, it cannot be FULLY disabled unless you modify your Z33 and add a manual cutoff switch. the Z33 traction system, like many other cars, can only be partially disabled. under extreme circumstances (which is what some of us look for), the system re-enables itself.

I enjoy a good debate and I should have approached this with less attitude. I apologize for insulting you and I appreciate everyones opinion on this topic.

No harm no foul...

TSC will help but I think an important part of learning to be a better driver will be gone. Kids will get too cocky and fly into a corner so fast even TSC can't save their bacon and be like "understeer whaaaa--GUARDRAIL!"

Actually, its quite the opposite. Being that I live in LA, land of snooty cocksuckers - the majority of races I end up having are with cars that are a LOT more expensive and feature laden. Cars that I should have NO chance competing with, I have fun competing with. Why? Because a lot of the drivers are spoiled rich kids (or even spoiled adults), who just have no idea how to control their car. The reason is this - the majority of people driving these cars drive them to the limit of traction control, NOT to the limit of adhesion. Their instability and jerky driving causes the car to either cut power or apply brakes, which is what keeps their overall speed down.

If you ask me, the bad thing about this.. is that you give an idiot a car that doesnt have all these safety features (or anti-balls features) and they are sure to cause an accident, because they are expecting the car to correct their own mistakes in every platform they drive. So now its the car's fault for not correcting their shitty driving, fuck that...


Secondly, why the fuck are they making TSC standard when ABS still isn't required (and is not standard on a shocking number of even medium priced cars)? ABS defintely prevents accidents in the wet, especially for the crappy majority.


I agree. If anything, ABS is one of the most important features because the majority of people are locking up their brakes because they travel too closely to other cars and then just slam on their brakes. I mean, its great for people who just dont pay attention and then suddenly mash their brakes. I however, hate ABS on my personal cars.. but thats just a personal preference.

I drive a brand new 3-series the other day, funny how the brakes react. Its the weirdest shit, there is a pause as to when the brakes disengage when you're at a stop.. its sure to have some type of electronic control, possibly brake-by-wire. Either way, its horrible stuff.

[McRussellPants]

actually, it cannot be FULLY disabled unless you modify your Z33 and add a manual cutoff switch. the Z33 traction system, like many other cars, can only be partially disabled. under extreme circumstances (which is what some of us look for), the system re-enables itself.

Pulling the ABS fuse isn't that hard.


lol cool reppppppppppppppppppp

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6610/220pxhillaryrodhamclintjn0.jpg

[NervGS]

Fucking shit.

I just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this bullshit.

My solution: Go buy a 240Z, tune, stroke, swap the engine, do whatever to get it to run/drive/feel however you want it, drive the living shit out of it and shut the fuck up. It's smog exempt, go put a rocket engine in there and blow yourself up.

Who the hell cares about all these new cars? Most of these new things are ugly as hell anyways. This bullshit won't happen, and if it does, then who cares? Think about what raw cars are out today and buy one of those instead. GT2/3, Elise/Exige/S, even a fucking KIT CAR.

I don't speak for the minority or majority, I speak for myself. And as many of you can see, who the fuck cares?

And yes, I had a 2006 Benz S-class at one point, all the electronics went to shit during rainy times and would go into freak mode. Brakes started even engaging on their own at one point (thank you brake by wire). I hate this shit as much as you all do, but I don't cry about it.

-glenn

[ixfxi]

Fucking shit.

I hate this shit as much as you all do, but I don't cry about it.

-glenn

thats because you are not a homo, glenn. its well known, that homos require the features listed above.