harness install - for those interested

[tnord]

ok ok....so i did this about a month and a half ago and am just now getting to it, call me lazy.

click here (http://community.webshots.com/user/tnord17)

so yeah, what you see is the Sparco/Sabelt 5pt 3'' snap in Camlock Competition belts, in blue of course. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> shoulder belts are of the 75'' H style variety, otherwise, the sub and lap belt are nothing out of the ordinary. the snap in belts are nice because as long as you leave the eye-bolts in, you can take out or put in the belts in under 2 min. also purchased is sparco's hardware, which includes an eye bolt, washer, and nut. the hardware from sparco takes care of the two lap and shoulder belts, but for the sub belt you have to get your own. i went with grade 8 hardened bolt, washer, and nut. without a roll bar, installing harnesses can be a bit of a trick. for those of you with the S14, or S13 coupe, you can do as i did. but for those with the hatchback (steve <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> ) i have no idea how to do it. as you can see i got the 75'' belts so i could go all the way back to the rear deck where the speakers are mounted. there are two indents just behind the speaker with small holes already there, this seemed like a good place to drill to me. the only problem is that the steel is so thin i was worried about passing tech inspection. so back to the hardware store i went for some 1/8'' grade 8 hardened steel, i think 9'' x 2.5,'' for reinforcement. i also picked up another washer of the same nature. so, it is layered like this; eyebolt, deck, washer, steel, washer, nut. seems to be a pretty solid setup to me. i didn't drill very accurate holes through the reinforcement steel as you can see (i was in a hurry cause it was 7pm and i still had a 5 hour drive ahead of me, with tech inspection at 630 the next morning), which caused me to have to bend the speaker bracket just a tad, no biggie. for the sub belt i just drilled a hole through the floorpan under the seat. you can see how i did the lapbelts. just cut the carpet on 3 sides so you can fold it back down and glue when you sell the car <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'> for all the holes (except deck) i drilled, rtv blue silicone was used on the bolts to assist in sealing off the hole to prevent rusting. took about 3 hrs total, not too bad for my first time doing this. this is definitely a 2 person job, and be sure to strap yourself in with the belts in close to the final position before you drill, personal fitiment will vary. the main drawback is that you can't use the deck cover to make everything pretty anymore. but who cares, you just want to go fast, right <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> on the upside, the stock belts are retained, and can still be used on a dialy basis with no problems.

this will only be of use to about 5 people here, but i know i wish i would've had this info before i started. i'd say this should be FAQ'd.......but i don't know of how much use it is.

PS - i don't want to hear any comments about my dirty interior.

[Tyler Durdan]

Looks really damn nice man...I especially liked the color (kinda of weird because I usually only like dark blue... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> ). &nbsp;This should be thrown into the faq because I plan on doing this in the future sometime. &nbsp;

On a sidenote, do you have a soundboard of your fireball exhaust...I've never heard the 5zigen exhaust...just curious.

[tnord]

nope, no clip of my exhaust. they're pretty quiet, especially when compared to the Apexi stuff. i'm happy with mine. on second thought, this should just be tossed in the Installs section when it's completed.

[pornallstar]

Yeah that should be in the Install section. &nbsp;Anyway Interior Dirty? &nbsp;I dont think so. &nbsp;That is one clean looking car. &nbsp;I might have to go down to the cities abd "Barrow" your car! &nbsp;LOL <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>

[AceInHole]

a: &nbsp;you're too lazy to make cutouts in the rear deck to make it look clean??

b: &nbsp;no roll cage with a 5pt harness = you roll over and get your head and spine crushed. &nbsp;sounds fun huh <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

[transient]

mmm, I would be a bit worried about the harness without a roll cage... :-\

[tnord]

i know i know........like a teter-toter with your head as the vertex. but tell it to MCSCC, you don't need to preach it to me. there is no way i'm putting in a cage for my daily driver. drilling holes in a car you're gonna sell in the relatively near future is bad enough.

[hurleyboi514]

i just put in my harness today in my hatch back. it was pretty easy. &nbsp;i had the simpson y type i bought from a guy at the autox yesterday. &nbsp;they used to be in a supra, hes selling the car, so i got it for cheap, $40! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> its 5 point but its not cam lock. &nbsp;they are eye bolt as well which is pretty convinent. &nbsp;i dont have a cage yet either, but im scheduled to have one made in a few weeks. &nbsp;woot woot! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

[Nerfdude]

anyone have pics of a 240 hatch with a cage installed? just curious...

[HippoSleek]

[beating dead horse] Harness w/o a cage!! &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> &nbsp;Rules or no, it's your safety we're talking about.[/beating dead horse]

Install looks clean. &nbsp;The only thing I was thinking about is the length of the primaries - but it doesn't look too long thanks to the remarkably useless backseat! &nbsp;Too long and they stretch - streching is BAAAAD.

As for the cleanliness of your interior... who can see it in those pics?

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ July 29 2002,07:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[beating dead horse] Harness w/o a cage!! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> Rules or no, it's your safety we're talking about.[/beating dead horse]

Install looks clean. The only thing I was thinking about is the length of the primaries - but it doesn't look too long thanks to the remarkably useless backseat! Too long and they stretch - streching is BAAAAD.

As for the cleanliness of your interior... who can see it in those pics?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
yeah, MCSCC is weird like that. &nbsp;over 7 points and you need a harness (or something like that). &nbsp;but they don't require a cage. &nbsp;strange. &nbsp;travis...don't roll, k?

stretch? &nbsp;have you tried to stretch a 3" nylon racing harness? &nbsp;hmmm. &nbsp;i haven't...just wondering if you knew some fact on this subject, mark.

travis, i like the stock crapola speakers. &nbsp;nice!

so how was racing this weekend?

Eric

[HippoSleek]

re: stretching. &nbsp;The number I've heard thrown around is 10-15% strech, depending on the severity of the crash (These are standard racing harnesses). &nbsp;When you think about 3' of harness, that is significant!

I did a lazy yahoo search:
one (http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses)
two (http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Accessories/harnesskits.htm)

Personally, I wouldn't run a harness w/o a 4 pt. bar for both protection and stretch. &nbsp;I saw a custom made one for an s14 and it was really unobtrusive (well - unless you are too tall for the car anyway).

One of these day's I'll have to put some rollover pics on an account so I can show what a car that goes over w/o protection looks like.

[240 2NR]

I'm not sure I've seen any picture or heard of anyone with a race spec roll bar in a hatchback. &nbsp;I may just have to be the first this winter.

I'm planning to fabricate a harness guide bar for the hatch that will span across the c-pillars, utilizing the stock seatbelt hardware and mounting points. &nbsp;I have to measure to make sure the harness will make that distance but I think it will. &nbsp;Otherwise autopower should have a universal that will fit between the b-pillars (using the holes intended for stock seat belts, but that would require holes in the panels, unless its not a USDM S13 with non motorized seatbelts)

As for Eric's comment on points in midwestern council, any car with over 2 points is no longer stock and must run a harness. &nbsp;Not sure where &nbsp;a roll bar becomes required (aside from open roof cars which must all have a roll bar to be on the track), but it isn't in prepared or modified class for autox. &nbsp;I plan to get one when money is less of an issue, but for now with only 2 races left, I'll take my chances (it's not like 240's lift an inside wheel when cornering). &nbsp;Nor will this be w2w.

[uiuc240]

I don't know about that, Steve. M3's don't normally lift an inside tire, and you and I both know that Kurt in ITGT was lifting the inside left in Turn 6 (#?). I have a pic. And don't forget the Golf that rolled like 4 times...good thing he had a cage.

I just think both you and Travis should get a cage or at least a rollbar before you take this any further. 3-point belts and no cage is one thing...4-5 point and no cage is another.

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

Eric

[240 2NR]

Are you sure that golf rolled three times? &nbsp;It looked like it only rolled once to end on it's roof. &nbsp;Only one corner looked like it was crunched. &nbsp;I would have guessed three rolls to damage more body parts than it appeared to have sustained.

[bbp]

Not saying it can't and won't happen, but, in all my years of doing track events and racing, I have not seen a roll over where the passenger compartment has been compromised.


My thought on the "with a 3 point system, I can duck if the roof colapses" theory. &nbsp;Yeah right, have you ever been in a roll over? &nbsp;You are pitched around like a rag doll in a clothes dryer. &nbsp;You have no control over your body in that situation.

[HippoSleek]

Steve & Eric - keep in mind that a car can go over once and look like hell... or I've seen one that rolled about 4 times and looked really good!

bbp - that's exactly it. &nbsp;You will get tossed around and you won't be held upright.

These are from an HPDE:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid27/p88adc029696c3d1de99bc2065688cc0f/fd78f619.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid27/p2c2445ec093033c9ab8c9d5325d8d510/fd78f614.jpg

[tnord]

1) a universal harness bar will not fit. i'm too f'n tall and if it mounted to the existing seat belt mounts, the bar would have to go directly through my helmet. i have looked into custom bars, but no i'm not spending $400.
2) i'm not spending $500+ for a custom cage either. especially in a car that will likely get sold sometime in the next year or so. who the fuck is gonna buy a car with a god damn cage in it? &nbsp;bolt in cage??? maybe
3) lets get real here. on a track with NO elevation changes, or banking (if you've been to blackhawk you know what i mean), then subtract out the risk of other cars, the risk of a rollover at the track i run it is very minimal. it'd be like forcing me to wear a full fire suit, yes, it could happen, but you have to draw a line between safety and financial common sense at a point. basically what would have to happen in order for a roll to occur at blackhawk would be for me to be going really fast off track sideways. the only places people go fast at blackhawk is through 5, where the run-off is actually banked against a rollover occurance. remember, it's just a 240, if/when i go off, i won't be going that fast. it would also have to occur where the driver would make a mistake. if you're going to put a couple wheels off, or go off course, i'm fully aware to JUST LET IT HAPPEN. i have actually done this a couple times. it would be when i try and get back on the track too abrubtly where the car would get sideways and possibly roll.
4) the chance of me running into a wall or a tree (where harnesses become useful) is far greater than that of a rollover in an autox situation with a not-so-fast car. in short, i'm safer with the harnesses than without.
5) if stretching was a significant problem, how are they SFI approved? either way, i doubt they'd stretch as much as a stock belt would.
6) the reason MCSCC has it's rules the way it does is very simple; participation. i'm in MCSCC because i WILL NOT put a cage in a street car. the second you put a cage in, it's not a street car anymore if you ask me. i have asked sr members of council about these situations, and they understood my concern, but realized that without the rules being the way they are, entrants would be very, very low.
7) i don't need to see any more pictures of rolled over cars, i've seen plenty from plenty of people, i understand the risks, and i am responsible for myself.

[240 2NR]

I'm not trying to argue that had it gone over three vs one times that it would have made much difference. &nbsp;I'm just trying figure out if it did, I'm under the impression it went over once.

Hippo- Compared to some of the pics I've seen, that ITR is pretty tame.

[HippoSleek]

1-2) &nbsp;That's one reason I'm not keeping the s14 as a trackable car - After I rode in one w/ a custom bar I realized there isn't enough room for me; &nbsp;and if I had the rules you have, I might be exactly in your shoes. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> &nbsp; FWIW: I'm buying a fire suit, etc. in the near future.
3) &nbsp;Never say never. &nbsp;Last month, I had a guy get two wheels two feet up by spinning and hitting the gators - on a totally flat section. &nbsp;Sometimes things just happen.
5) &nbsp;B/c they are designed to be mounted w/ a cage where there isn't such a great distance. &nbsp;10-15% of one foot isn't too much (it is actually a bit of a good thing) - it's greater lengths where it becomes an issue. &nbsp;Imho, the 240 is borderline, but in cars w/ a useful backseat, it is out of the question.
6) &nbsp;It's just like the track day vs. w2w debate. &nbsp;I think there's a limit to what you should be doing in a "street" car. &nbsp;It's why I won't run R compounds w/o rollover protection. &nbsp;For better or worse, I know a couple SCCA safety guys and they have sorta drilled it into my head that SCCA rules are the way it ought to be. &nbsp;
7) &nbsp;I know you know. &nbsp;The pics weren't really for you.

Mark
-the old Jewish mother of Zilvia. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[boosteds14]

looks nice

i like it. a chrome roll cage would be even better but i understand that you are selling it soon. NOT WORTH IT

did you retain the stock seatbelt also?

[transient]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bbp @ July 29 2002,3:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My thought on the "with a 3 point system, I can duck if the roof colapses" theory. Yeah right, have you ever been in a roll over? You are pitched around like a rag doll in a clothes dryer. You have no control over your body in that situation.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
It's not that with a 3 point system you'd duck, it's more that the roof would just push your head down. With a four and especially a 5 point, you're strapped in a lot tighter, and you're not really able to be pushed down, so your head/neck/back is going to take the force of it.