Safety as a means of revenue (longish rant) [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

240 2NR

07-17-2002, 12:38 PM

Well I went to the dentist today and my oral hygenist told me about her most recent traffic warning (she's my neighbor so we talk a lot).  Apparently the Middleton (call it Madison, WI in terms of location) police department has decided to begin ticketing people for running yellow lights.  Not running them late, but just entering the intersection while the light is yellow.  She was given a warning for her (legal) violation, but others are getting tickets.  What kind of bullshit police work is that? The yellow is designed to warn you of an impending red light, not act as a red light.  Those who can safely cross through without speeding up should, and those futher back should stop.  The length of the light should be determined based on the speed of traffic and is actually not a set value everywhere (though the state of delaware is really long everywhere, does that mean I should drive faster?) because of this.

So now in the "name of safety", the police department is increasing revenue (and probably having officers work overtime like previous traffic task forces in the area, meaning, good luck getting out of the ticket since they have to cover costs somehow) by ticketing legal actions.  Apparently they don't have the investment capital to buy red light cameras and shorten the yellow time like the rest of the country.

Speed limits are more of the same.  Your speed is a very small indication of your driving ability/ recklessness, and usually I can be in excess of the speed limit by 15mph in the right lane and still be too slow for traffic (in IL).  Honestly I wish it was more like Europe (GB at least) where speeding alone won't get you a ticket.  The police have to build a case as to your recklessness.  Either that or commonly exceeded, poorly enforced speed limits need to be increased (so pacing traffic doesn't get you a 15mph over ticket when you are made the example) and strictly enforced (leading to more even traffic speeds, really I think the differential of speed is more dangerous than the speed itself).

OFF CAR TOPIC
The biggest/worst example of money for "our safety" was the state lawsuits against the tobacco companies and the recent tax hike of $3 per pack in NY.  WI was awarded ~$900 million in tobacco lawsuits due to the increased costs for healthcare that that state incurs due to tobacco use and to create programs for tobacco prevention.  Something like $4mil has been spent on commercials and maybe another 4 to create programs for prevention (maybe).  Regardless, the majority of this money (read: the rest of it) was used to balance the state buget for the fiscal year meaning that next year we can expect to be $900 mil in the red and just as many people will still be smoking.  Yeah, that makes me feel so much better.  capitalism at it's finest.

All I have to say about NY is they are just getting a piece of the tobacco companies action because it has become acceptable.  Suddenly everyone hates them (tobacco companies) and the gov't can take money under the defense that they are trying to help people quit.  Do you think they really want you to quit when they're making $3 per pack?  Riiiiiight.

By the way I don't smoke, it just pisses me off.

Who wants to talk about SUV's next?  GRRR, I'm moving to europe, except there I can't get a 240.  Guess I'd have to settle for a Silvia.

uiuc240

07-17-2002, 01:08 PM

Steve, that was a great post.  But I don't really have anything to add.  I tell you, life in the US gets more frustrating every day.  Does everyone know that the Socialist Democracies over in Europe have mandatory paid vacation for everyone?  Yeah, in Germany, everyone gets two months paid.  France is 5 weeks.  We are retarded over here.  We need to start making more demands.  First off, SUVs should be recalled, or at least change the laws to reflect what they are really used for.  Jack up insurance rates on them since they cause tons of accidents.  And stop letting them slip by the gas and air laws because they are "trucks" and therefore "farm/commercial machinery".  That's BS and everyone knows it.  I could go on for hours, but I'll stop.

Eric

Natty

07-17-2002, 01:26 PM

The good ole cities of Franklin and Spring Hill have a couple of tricks too.
If you cross an intersection when yellow and the light turns red and if so much as your rear bumper in still in the intersection, you get a ticket.
If you pull a u turn, you get a ticket. No sign for this, anywhere. I do like this rule, but I wish they had signs. They just do it to get revenue.
Jeff

SR20Fastback

07-17-2002, 01:30 PM

Its sorta early for me, but I understand how you feel. I think the system is starting to suck even worse now. I think its fucked up that they only use 8 mil out of 900 for people to quit smoking. I can understand that its a good cause, but if you get all that money for one thing, shouldnt you use ALL that money for ONE thing? eh I dunno, guess I'll go back to eating my sour patch kids...at least they cant take that away from me  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>

240sxtreme

07-17-2002, 01:30 PM

well...this is sort of OT from the post as well but its some info that I came across today, which completely threw me:

Currently, the US has twenty-two comissioned Trident Nuclear submarines, which are first-strike weapons. Any one of those submarines can launch twenty-four missiles simultaneously. Eash of those missles can contain as many as seventeen independently targeted, maneuverable nuclear warheads. And each of those warheads can travel seven thousand nautical miles and supposedly hit within three hundred feet of its predetermined target. If we fire them in opposite directions, we can span fourteen thousand natical miles: halfway around the world at the equator. This means we can take out 408 centers of human population, hitting each with a nuclear warhead ten times as powerful as the bomb that incinerated Nagasaki.

for some quick math
1 submarine-408 nuclear warheads 10 times more powerful then the Nagasaki bomb. times that by 22(22 subs), you get 8976 missiles spanning 7000 miles each, doing 10 times more damage then the nagasaki bomb each.

Our government spending and foreign policy hard at work. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

HippoSleek

07-17-2002, 01:37 PM

Yellow lights:  there ought to be a law!  Oh yeah - there is and it is clearly written.  If a cop writes a ticket for yellow light, I'd be showing them the state code.  Of course if the code says you can't enter an intersection when yellow (I doubt it - that's for red) or you can't remain in and intersection (maybe) they've got you and you are breaking the law.  

Speeding:  that is the one law that I disobey about every time I get in the car.  I can't help it - when traffic is doing 80, I do 80.  But they don't ticket here unless you stick out.  I'm not too keen on the European example.  I mean, we all KNOW the law - we just chose to disobey it.  That's a risk we take.

SUVs:  don't get me started either...

Tobacco tax:  I'm with you there.

Europe:  Okay - sore subject.  If you want to live in pinko-commie land, go right ahead!  Remember that the US is the best off country in the world.  We have the BEST of everything and the highest standard of living.  There is a reason we are the DOMINANT world power.  There is also a reason nothing good comes out of France and that Europe has become a second rate power.

As for those paid vacations, it is because they don't have enough jobs over there that they have to spread the workforce even thinner (and they still run 10% unemployment! ).  They also have great welfare programs for all those that can't find work.  SCREW THAT!  I want my job, I want my money, and I don't want the government limiting my ability to make money or be productive.  

cApItAlIsM 0wNz m3 <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Mark
-who follows every law but speeding and thinks a 55 hour work week is taking it easy.

240 2NR

07-17-2002, 01:47 PM

Just to add a realization I had at lunch. I was recalling the SCC mometum limits article to a friend of mine and it hit me (no pun intended) that an SUV weighing 5000lbs (and in some cases that's light), hitting me at 35mph was nearly the same momentum as a 240 hitting me at 70mph (at least big body benz's and bimmer's have excellent brakes). That's just insane (maybe that's why my insurance went up $80 this year, no points, no accidents, tickets, warnings, or even parking violations). Around town if someone just wasn't paying attention and hit me at a civilized speed, it would be as severe as a normal car hitting me on the highway (now imagine getting hit by the Cadillac Escalade on 22's that just flew by at 100mph).

I also find it annoying that light trucks make up 52% of new vehicles sold, and are still classified under laws that kept them cheap for work/farm vehicles (as Eric said above), not to mention exempt from gas guzzler and luxary tax.

I'm not sure if I'm just getting older and my eyes are "opening" or if our government has been this screwed up all my life (23 years).

Don't misunderstand me, SUV's do have a place in the world.  It's in front of my race car as it pulls it to the track!

uiuc240

07-17-2002, 01:52 PM

Just out of curiosity, Mark, but have you been to Europe?  It's quite a bit cooler than here.  Mass transit is top notch.  People actually respect their history and culture.  The government is actually in the people's control (which is not the case in the US...even though we choose to think otherwise).  Money rules here, and we all know it.  Over there, the people have a voice and the government has to respect that or they'll coup.  Over here, the businesses with the most money get to make the laws and rules.  Don't get me wrong, I'll probably never move to Europe, as the paperwork is too difficult, but the US is not all that and a bag of chips as we like to think.  Get out there and experience some other places before generalizing.  And pinko-commie is a harsh overstatment.  If you're talking about cold war Eastern Europe, OK, but France and Germany are great examples of Westernization.  They even have Wal-mart in Germany, much to my dismay, however.  We have a lot to learn from Europe...same as they have a lot to learn from us.

Eric

Sick240

07-17-2002, 02:16 PM

While we are on the subject of the corrupted goverment, other than the fact that I just recently got a $69.00 ticket for not wearing my seatbelt( which is stupid I know, but it IS my own choice of wether or not I live or die in the unfortunate case an accident should occur) But, San Juan County New Mexico, just ran short of probate funds, so everyone in Aztec county Jail that was in for a misdemeanor was released on Saturday, Yet they have the money to continue paying the Navajo Nation twice monthly for living in Shiprock, which is total Bullshit because that agreement was up I believe 20 years ago, so now, although the working class people buy them brand -new vehichles, supply food, and housing, and all they do, is after they get paid, they make the trip down to Farmington to get wasted, and trash our streets, btw, since those people were let out, a good friend of my cousin, whos ex-huisband beat the crap out of her, and gave her 40 stitches on her face, is now walking the streets.

HippoSleek

07-17-2002, 03:34 PM

Eric-

First off, I haven't been in Europe long enough to have it really matter (vacations, military, or short term work assignments don't count in my mind).  I think to really get a feel for a place you have to be there - living amidst the general populus - for quite some time.  I can say that, as a tourist, I enjoyed it - but I don't think I'll be looking into moving any time soon.  

Government - I think if people honestly believe the government is in their control ANYWHERE, they are naive.  Representative democracy, as seen in the US certainly has problems with money-driven special interests.  Oddly, the check to this - individual interest and spending - is largely absent.  It's not a systematic failure, as much as a failure of the society to concern itself with the state of the government.  So, while I think there are many problems w/ our two party system, overall, it keeps people here satisfied.  

The European model of coalition government, however, does not really solve the shortcomings of our two party system.  Despite having a roster of parties, they must coalese and put forth and limited number of adgendas to legislate.  Then, in the end only one will win (as here).  Thus, it ends in the same "liberal" vs "conservative" debate as in the US - only the liberals are socialists and the conservatives can be anything from what Americans think of as liberals to people that think expelling immigrants and burning synagogues is okay.  Europe is great for passionate diatribe, but when it comes to action, they are hobbled and slow to react to regional and global concerns.  Examples: regional economy; Bosnia; entrepreneurship.  This is exactly the outgrowth of the multi-party system, however.

Additionally, money rules everywhere - its just where it comes from that differs.  Unions, corporations, taxpayers, or individuals.  Bottom line - it takes money to run a government and to get into office.  Also, there must be some perks, lest the role of legislator be less appealing than private sector jobs.  Only when money comes from individuals would it be different.  Crony politics are different there - old families, large corporations, or unions - not special interest/corps. like here.  But crony politics, nonetheless.  

Finally, as for the fear of coup - government is rarely best at the end of a bayonet.  Something to keep in mind - there are no revolutions when people are happy with the government.

Pinko was hyperbole <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>  I recognize the difference between attempts at all out communism and socialist democracies.  And Eastern Europe isn't even on the map yet, functionally.  I also recognize that Europe has its lessons - but in governmental terms, I don't see their model as superior to our own.

Mark
-who almost did this as a career in Eastern Europe or the developing-"stans."

uiuc240

07-17-2002, 03:48 PM

Really well put, sir.

I can't really argue your points, as you generally stated both sides of the situation.  I guess I was mainly responding to your hyper-patriotic post at the start.  This post was far more level-headed and persuasive.  Bravissimo.

I do truly love the U.S.  However, I am constantly frustrated with the overwhelming ignorance of the populace.  It's endemic of the situations we have revolving around racial separation and in-fighting, socioeconomic splits, urban sprawl, SUVs, etc. etc.  People are too easily convinced by the Joneses.  No one thinks about what they are doing, and the repercussions of those actions.  Hence, Enron.  Hence, Israel.  Hence, worldwide hatred of our fast-acting political tactics.  I could go on.  And you know what I'm saying.

I think the main force that draws me toward the European lifestyle is the fact that more people there seem to be in tune with their OWN OPINIONS.  Also, families are stronger there.  Living in Paris for 9 months, I feel I can speak about this with some authority.  I must say, I was ready to get back to my car and Taco Bell when my time was up.  But after 2 weeks of being back home, I was ready to go back to Europe.  Part of that is my undying curiosity of architecture and people.  Here I feel creatively stifled...but that's another story.  Anyway, no one besides you, me, and Steve are reading this anymore, so I'll stop.

Let me just say this.  Emails like yours bring me new respect.  Some of us are just gearheads rollin' on dubz.  we own j00.

Eric

SR20Fastback

07-17-2002, 04:08 PM

Good god, I didnt know we had some many intelects here. Note to self: Go to college, get smart. Talk like mark and eric...  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Nerfdude

07-17-2002, 04:09 PM

out of curiosity, how exactly does making it illegal to enter an intersection after the light turns yellow make driving safer? i mean, what if the speed limit is anywhere over, say 25, and you're driving up to an intersection with a green light, and it turns yellow five feet before you enter? legally, you're required to attempt to reduce your speed to zero within five feet, and that's impossible. what you're going to wind up with is all sorts of cars trying to make skidding stops, which will lead to even more accidents than before, which means that this "safety" law is flat-out creating a less safe drving environment. what a world we live in. they might as well just say they're doing it for more money, because i doubt anyone believes otherwise.

fodive

07-17-2002, 04:54 PM

hmmm....great post, finally something that held my attention through the whole post...not muhc else fgor me to say, but that yellow light shit pisses me off,you need to take that mother to court if he give syou one of those...my opinion about the US vs. Europe is this, im eastern european (hungarian)...and its not fair to trash eatern europe without trashing russia...because Russia eruined a lot of things in europe IMO. I think if givin a choice, i'd stay in the good ole USA because you do have more chocies of what you want to do, etc., etc., although i think that europe is on its way to being equal with the US if we still ahve idiots liek bush in office...(sorry venting)....and whoever it was who trashed france, your 100% correct, they are the reason for WWI, WWII, and Vietnam...like someone one the simpsons said "France....they dont even have a word for victory" <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

240 2NR

07-17-2002, 05:27 PM

Nerfdude- I think you picked up on my sarcasm.  Policing actions in the NAME of safety, rather than the interest of safety and making money on the grey area of the law, marketed as enforcing safe habits.  The previous scandal had been red light cameras, which in theory were a great idea, till you realize that I may let my sister's, friend's, boyfriend's, mother drive my car one day and two weeks later get a ticket in the mail because my CAR ran a red light.  Couple that with greedy municipalities who saw profits from three second yellows increase by simply rolling yellow time back to 2 or one seconds (and no longer in sync with the safe duration of time to "stop or go").  

Ticketing the mere presence of a car in the intersection during yellow only makes it worse.

Hippo- I thought I was going to finally have an arguement for you, but you proved yourself to be more politically rational than your first post let on (first couple lines just seemed sort of stuck in a cold war mentality "commi pinko").  In terms of politics and mass consumer frenzy (following what is widely accepted without questioning it's moral, ethical, and long term effects), Eric and I see pretty much eye to eye so I don't think I need to expand much on either of the well written posts (Maybe it should be FAQ'd in case someone is looking for a sociopolitical stance on their world view, or a last minute persuasive essay:).  Really there is no perfect polictical system because someone will always disagree.  And that's not a bad thing.  

I don't believe I could move to Europe without a large bankrole myself, because as much as I would like to, I am married to the American way of life, as much as I despise so much of it.  It's just sickening to find such mindless trends as SUV's and Urban sprawl that sadly, could not be more American, and then listen to the same people talk about how great this country is , and how terrible europe must be since they live in cramped cities and drive small cars, and live in small houses.  Unfortunately we are a "role model" for emerging as well as established countries, and it is a way of life that cannot be supported globally.  Most Americans could care less about the rest of the world, yet much of the world is very interested in what we do.  Our way of life is very enviable to many.  For as many things Europe has going wrong, they seem much more progressive than we are.

HippoSleek

07-18-2002, 08:52 AM

What a pleasant and enjoyable post.  Sorry for the initial overstatements.  Living in DC, it gets old hearing people that live the "American" way of life to its fullest trash the US in favor of Europe b/c of misperceived conditions.  Funny - they can't even imagine life w/o a washer and dryer in their home or taxes that make ours look low.  Despite having been to a few places in Europe as a "good tourist" (i.e., staying w/ US friend's Euro families - far superior to hotel/hostel) and all over the US (maybe 40/50 states), I've yet to find paradise or truly rational citizens.  We all have our faults.  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>   To me, Europe is a great place - but not really what I'm looking for.  Even though living conditions are not significantly different that say, NYC (where I could live quite easily), the culture is just not for me.

The interesting failing of America, to me, is how the "American dream" has perverted people into believing in the dominant system w/o question.  We never had a socialist revolution b/c everyone always believed they actually COULD be that lucky guy w/ all the money.  Don't knock down what you may be!  To the the extent it is an overblown myth, it is, imho, the single most important facet of American society.  (and my thesis topic <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> - Algerism and the Wobblies).

The other thing is that due to the incredible influx of people into the US from all over the world, we are able to substitue class concerns with racial ones.  Instead of the middle and upper classes decrying the poor - we turn our attention to (in vague historical order) the Germans, then Irish, then Southern Europeans, then Slavs, then Jews, then African Americans (only after they began entering white society), then Asians, and currently Latin Americans.  Rather than looking at the poverty which creates the type of people we "don't like," we look at skin tone.  I've always thought it interesting that poor white trash is more like a minority group - but no one notices what it really has in common w/ the other discriminated groups... POOR!  But alas, this is America where the next generation won't be so poor...

I can also totally understand loving the architecture and feel of Europe - its history (and variety) is incomperable.  Steve - great point on global responsibilty... we all want S.A. to stop burning down the rainforests... but like to overlook that we are the world's largest polluter.  fo - I didn't mean to trash Eastern Europe - I should have said that they are too young in their self-rule (at this time) to adequately address how society and citizenship will advance.  I have so much more respect for places like Poland and Hungary than much of W. Eur. b/c of their history of perserverence (sp?).  All right too much more to respond to... I'll just let it go <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Okay, two more things:
Why does Paris have tree lined boulevards?
-b/c Germans like to march in the shade

What is the first word that every French child learns?
-"I surrender"... in German.

mark
-who's German and English <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

uiuc240

07-18-2002, 09:04 AM

Once again, well said.  I really enjoyed the part about ethnicity.  Have you read Ronald Takaki's A Different Mirror?  It's a history of America focusing on the viewpoints of all the different minorities.  Makes white folk like you and me take notice!  I had a great class called Race and Ethnic Diversity in America last year.  Awesome.

Anyway, I don't have much to add.  Oh, taxes in Europe.  Remember that their taxes also pay for more things.  Like health care.  And subsidized public transit that's actually GOOD and CHEAP...not like Amtrak.  And have you seen the quality of roads in most of Europe?!  Wow...talk about smooth as glass.  I just want to get out there in my SR and blast from Berlin to Normandy.  Wow.

Oh, and I know you were kidding, but the tree-lined streets in Paris are awesome.  And they were designed in the 1850s by the great planner Baron Haussmann.  Don't have anything to say about "I surrender" except the fact that almost no French people I met spoke German (which I do...Sprichst du Deutsch, Mark?)

Eric (50% Swede, 25% German, 25% English...white bread 3rd gen)

Fresh 240SX

07-18-2002, 09:58 AM

You can't beat the police, they are the biggest gang in the world...

All you can do is appeal things in court (there home "turf")

So you can see from the get go how your screwed from day 1.

240 2NR

07-18-2002, 10:21 AM

There are parts of the legal system that I do not agree with (certain traffic violations) but I do not feel that our world would be better off without cops.  I take offense to the type of revenue generating programs that are designed with the marketing spin off of being in our best interest, but really serve to balance someone's buget, and slip by due to a public lack of understanding or do nothing attitude.  In the end I have a lot of respect for cops, and though there are bad examples, or our nations finest, it is still just a job that many do well (unfortunately good cops stories don't have quiet the edge bad cop stories do in the media).  

Growing up in NY I had several friend's parents who were cops and if you heard some of the stories they tell, you would better understand their situation even if you didn't always agree.

HippoSleek

07-18-2002, 12:26 PM

Haven't read that book, but I think my ex gf did.  It seems like I've heard a fair bit about Takaki, too.  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>  Sorry - I'm not as much of a pleasure reader now that I do that for a living.

Agreed taxes there pay for more and the roads are quite nice (although NoVA isn't bad).  The drives are the best though - roads in the middle of no where rock... roads in the middle of no where in central or northern Italy REALLY rock!  (If only I hadn't been stuck in a POS underpowered Fiat! ).  And nein.  (I took Latin and then French).  

I'm also a much bigger fan of cops than I used to be - well said on that one.  They have one of those jobs that no one cares about when they do it well, but everyone bitches if they make a mistake.  Imagine if every job were as thankless and demanding?  I like cops and 9 out of 10 "car people" I hear complain about them seem to deserve it.  I'm not saying they are angels or are always charged with enforcing the best laws - but it's a job - like anything else.

Eric - what's your field of study anyway?  And it UIUC the one by Ill. St.?

Mark - descended from honkeys since 1714.

misnomer

07-18-2002, 12:38 PM

Keep in mind before bringing up pollution, that we are the world's #1 producer of both manufactured goods and foodstuffs. Is America degenerating? In some ways, yes. Wild times in the 70s has created a lot of bad parents, and contrary to what anybody says, parents are the greatest influence on a person. Make good parents, and you'll make good children (who will make more good parents).

I don't even see how SUVs could even be on the list of things causing problems in the world. . . They may eat more gas, but they likely put off fewer hydrocarbons than a SOHC s13. It's the hydrocarbons that pollute, not the CO2 and water that makes up the rest of exhaust.

As far as the original point of this thread, that's bullshit. I'll enjoy living here in a state where it is illegal for the state spending to exceed revenue.

uiuc240

07-18-2002, 01:01 PM

Mark, I'm an architecture grad student.  Thesis this year!  Aack!  And UIUC is in Urbana-Champaign...ISU is in Bloomington-Normal which is about an hour away.  Anyway, what are you studying and where do you go to school?

Misnomer - you're half right about the hydrocarbons.  Those simply produce the pollution we can see and smell.  CO2 is in fact one of the worst and most prolific gases in the atmosphere.  It causes the "greenhouse effect" by trapping heat.  I'm sure you've heard all about that...and I don't want to get into it, as that's the type of stuff I get paid to "research" all day.  Or type on Zilvia...hehehe.  Anyway, just keep that in mind.  And don't forget that SUVs use twice as much material as an average car, and they drink twice as much gas.  I know that there are other things that pollute more or have a greater impact on the environment (buildings and the building industry consume 65% of our nation's electrical production each year).  I just think that by simply choosing to act responsibly and drive responsible vehicles, we can each play a small part in bettering the environment.  I'll stop now because I'm sure you all are thinking I'm a tree-hugging retard, which I'm not.  I drive a turbo 240, remember...but I don't ever get lower than 20 mpg and 26 on the highway.  Suck on that SUV-drivers! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Eric

Rikadyn

07-18-2002, 01:04 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ July 17 2002,2:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember that the US is the best off country in the world. We have the BEST of everything and the highest standard of living. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
and 75% of everything is made in Japan, China and Taiwan <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

anyway...why does everyone want to move to europe? I'd rather go to Japan or if i was lazy...i'd just move to canada... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

and for what its worth... i'm french german and english with a small part native american

240 2NR

07-18-2002, 01:44 PM

misnomer- keep in mind that for every gallon of gas you put in your car, many times that weight is released as CO2 (the wonders of the stochiometric ratio) so as fuel is burned, somewhere between 10 and 14 times the amount of air is ingested in to the combustion chamber and most of that is released as CO2.  waht's a gallon of fuel, 8 pounds or so?  So about 80lbs of CO2 per gallon.

Also remeber that SUV's are not only gas guzzlers, they weigh twice as much as a SOHC 240 (I still doubt lower emmisions from an SUV, which fall under looser emmisions requirements).  That means that twice the raw materials must be mined, refined, and turned into an SUV.  That not only means twice the impact to the earth in terms of a scar from the mine, but also twice the energy must be utilized to produce those materials.  Nothing comes free.  I think it would be interesting to just to study the amount of energy required to produce a paper clip.

Outside of an energy standpoint, 6000lbs is lethal on the street (OK I lied since that's kinetic energy).  Couple that with battering ram like rigidity and double the stopping distances and we're screwed.  Oh, and insurance rates are going up nationwide due to increased damage and deaths from car vs. SUV accidents.  Still want to defend them?

bbp

07-18-2002, 01:48 PM

1.  Pure revenue generating tickets are bullshit.  I live in a very quiet low traffic neighborhood here in Akron, Ohio.  There is a stop sign at the end of my street.  One day as I was coming home after work, I didn't make a COMPLETE 3 second stop (now mind you it was plenty of time to see any traffic coming) and there was a cop sitting around the corner.  I made it to my driveway when I noticed a cruiser pulling in my driveway.  He informed me that I "blew" the stop sign and issues me a $95 freaking dollar ticket.  I was/am/will forever be pissed!  A ticket in MY neighborhood, in MY driveway.  As sat and brooded over a cold beer I heard the cop pull over 5-6 of my neighbors for the same infraction!  I get pissed just thinking about it.

Second, The whole yellow light issue is bogus as well.  In fact, there is a lawsuit being fought right now about the legality of those cameras that snap a picture of your plate if you run a yellow light.  These are becoming popular in California among other states.  The lawsuit contends that the system is designed as a pure revenue-generating scheme and really is unfair to motorists because the reaction time between the light changing and the ability of a driver to stop is unfair.  It states that in some situations the driver has absolutely no chance of stopping in time.  I will try to post a link about it if I can find it again.  

Third, As Hippo stated, the US is the greatest place in world to live.  Even with some of the bullshit that goes down here, I still would not want to live in a country with socialized health care system, $5 per liter for fuel and in many cases much higher taxes.  The comment about money being the main focus in the US, you're right and wouldn't want it any other way.  It’s much better than having religion as a basis for society, look at the Middle East, and see what that got them?  

(Disclaimer-I have nothing against any middle eastener or European... we all have our problems)

SR20Fastback

07-18-2002, 02:55 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rikadyn @ July 18 2002,12:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ July 17 2002,2:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Remember that the US is the best off country in the world. We have the BEST of everything and the highest standard of living. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
and 75% of everything is made in Japan, China and Taiwan <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

anyway...why does everyone want to move to europe? I'd rather go to Japan or if i was lazy...i'd just move to canada... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

and for what its worth... i'm french german and english with a small part native american</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I would also like to live in japan, and maybe someday I will, but its terribly over populated and very cramped. I dont know if I could stand that, because I always need space. I think its a beautiful country with very rich and intresting culture. I hope to at least vacation there sometime <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

and for the record 33.3% Irish, 33.3% German, and 33.3% Scottish

white and pale since 1985

HippoSleek

07-18-2002, 04:31 PM

Traffic - I gotta admit, I like the red light cameras.  I think that is one of the scariest things that I regularly see is people just running lights.  The worst place I saw was Phoenix - a few seconds into the red.  DC isn't that bad - but a lot of distracted drivers.  NYC is amazing - I very rarely see it there!  It's like everyone understands that if you don't follow the rules, the system doesn't work.  So I like the tickets... except when I got one b/c I was straded in the interection waiting to turn left while other people went through the <s>yellow</s> orange light.  By the time I went = ticket  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':pissed:'>

Eric - architecture was what I would have liked to do.  I was a poly-sci & eng. double maj., bus. minor w/ a JD.  I've always been a big fan of buildings though! :jealous:  Oops on location.  I thought there was a UI campus around Normal (I had an ex gf who'd dad was a prof there and we visited... bizarre).

SUV's - there isn't enough time!  There was a study released this week that studied this region and found that public transportation produced 90% less ground level ozone gasses and about 60% fewer greenhouse gasses.  I take mass transit every day <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

bbp - that SUCKS!

peace - gotta catch a metro train

fodive

07-18-2002, 05:13 PM

dont worry about the eastern europe thing...i know you werent trying to trash it...jsut wanted to point out that it wasnt our fault we were communists <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> ....anyhoo, this has been a real refereshing post, i think its interesting to hear other ppls points of views...i cant remember who pointed out the racism thing, but you were dead on...i never really thought about it till now, and I think I;ll go and pick up that book sometime...

BTW 50% Hungarian.....the rest is mix

misnomer

07-19-2002, 01:08 AM

I don't defend what SUVs have become. They used to have honor, back before they were tiny ass pansy unibody things. Before they became the way to get the kids to soccer practice. SUVs are poor replacements for station wagons. I'd defend the old, burly ones which weren't used for daily driving, the kind you'd use to get the crews to some outback construction site, or to take the boat and the kids camping.

Unibodies aren't strong enough for sport, and most of the new one's motors aren't powerful enough for utility. They are simply minivans with longer springs.

Oh yeah, and most studies say we'll be out of gas soon anyhow. Nothing like a good energy crisis to change the world.

240 2NR

07-19-2002, 07:51 AM

Well, technically a unibody should be much stonger as the body can act as a rigid sturuture, diving much more depth and reistance to flex and torsion  The only vehicles you still commonly see ladder frames on are pickup trucks, which make poor unibodies due to their "open box" design.  The reason many SUV's have ladder frames when they are fully enclosed boxes is that they commonly share the platform with a previously designed pickup truck.  It was aslo much cheaper when SUV's were still a small niche market and spending a lot of money on R&D wouldn't have been affordable in such a small market.  Now they spend 1/100 the amount on R&D thatn most cars recieve and they have the biggest mark ups in the industry, sometimes as much as 25%.

SUV's represent the oldest forms of technology from ladder frames (which become battering rams when they hit us), to live axle, leaf spring suspensions (which are older than horseless carriages themselves).  There's more yestertech in them than just about any muscle car you care to pick.

Nerfdude

07-19-2002, 10:08 AM

red light cameras... i feel both ways for them. i mean, it's great that they stop people from running reds (they've got em installed on the strip out here at ONE intersection, it's the only one people don't run), but at the same time, i don't like the whole "big brother is watching you" thing. the fact that i can be ticketed witout a cop pulling me over just pisses me off. of course, i don't run lights anyway, but... the ones that DO get me are those "your speed is" boxes with the cameras installed on them. cops can just set those anywhere, set the speed at which you get a ticket, and watch the revenue roll in. automated tickets are just bullshit, if you ask me.

on a side note, has anyone tried those license plate frames that supposedly blur your plate numbers to anyone not directly behind you? the idea is that since the cameras are at angles, they can't get a clear shot of your numbers, and then cops can't ticket you...