Removing power steering

[Orpheus]

Hi all,

Sorry if this is a repeat--I couldn't get the search function to work 9/10 times. Looking for some advice...

Anyway, I am thinking of removing the power steering. I am looking to turn this 1989 240SE into a track car, and I thought I might like the feel of power-less steering. Anyone tried?--is it driveable on the streets still?

Also, can anyone point me to a thread or describe the steps necessary to do this?

Thanks--any advice or opinions are valuable...

Orpheus

[spoonman]

it is definely more difficult without p/s, but it is not that bad. you can "feel" the road more, and you want that if its gonna be a track car.

as far as removal, get out your fsm. it's not that hard, just takes a little time.

[yokotas13]

wtf
ar eyou retarded
ive driven an 86 with no power steering, i couldnt imagine my car with 17s drifting with no PS. crazy as fuck

[spoonman]

i not retared, and not a weenie either.

[yokotas13]

its not about being a weenie.
Unless its a dedicated track car, its retarded. PS helps you , it doesnt hurt you

[zugoi]

yeah i dont see why you wouldnt want it. Unless driving is the only time you have to work out your arms.

[bongnak]

yeah man no power steering on a s chassis is crazy good luck trying to straighten out the wheel after you countersteer. Don't do it. if you wanna see how it feels, unhook the belt and drive around with no ps. Theres no way, ESPECIALLY if its a track car.

[spoonman]

thats true, it does help you. i have been driving my 92 for a year and a half with no p/s and z32tt wheels and to me it isnt that bad. he wanted some opinions and that is mine. it really just depends on what he is willing to deal with and what kind of track he want's to use it on.

i use my car for auto x, but i wouldn't recommend removing it for drifting.

[Orpheus]

thanks for the variety of opinions...

i did primarily want to run at the local street tracks (buttonwillow / willow springs), but my friend's into drifting, so i might do that as well.

so bongnak, you say i can just unhook the belt to try it out?--i might just do that then. sounds like a good suggestion. not going to hurt anything if i do that right?

the thing is, i know there are lots of cars that come stock without power steering (or at least as a delete option) like the Lotus Elise / Exige and Acura NSX, Ferrari F40, etc. so why not this car?

personally, i don't mind physical torture as long as it gets me faster track times. (my original daily driver has a fixed seat, ultra-stiff short throw shifter, tough clutch, lowered, etc... and i drive +80-100mi/day!)

...hmm, maybe i'm as sadistic as spoonman?

[Rayne]

thanks for the variety of opinions...

i did primarily want to run at the local street tracks (buttonwillow / willow springs), but my friend's into drifting, so i might do that as well.

so bongnak, you say i can just unhook the belt to try it out?--i might just do that then. sounds like a good suggestion. not going to hurt anything if i do that right?

the thing is, i know there are lots of cars that come stock without power steering (or at least as a delete option) like the Lotus Elise / Exige and Acura NSX, Ferrari F40, etc. so why not this car?

personally, i don't mind physical torture as long as it gets me faster track times. (my original daily driver has a fixed seat, ultra-stiff short throw shifter, tough clutch, lowered, etc... and i drive +80-100mi/day!)

...hmm, maybe i'm as sadistic as spoonman?

For drifting...keep the stock powersteering unless you can find an electrical powersteering pump...other wise...countersteering my result in a broken hand.

For drag...pull the powersteering.

Anyway....other than the above....there is a sensor that is connected to the high pressure return hose on the driver's side of the car. If you are standing at the front of the car looking down at the stock airbox you will see the connection down between the airbox and the radiator support.

[Orpheus]

For drifting...keep the stock powersteering unless you can find an electrical powersteering pump...other wise...countersteering my result in a broken hand.

For drag...pull the powersteering.

Anyway....other than the above....there is a sensor that is connected to the high pressure return hose on the driver's side of the car. If you are standing at the front of the car looking down at the stock airbox you will see the connection down between the airbox and the radiator support.this sensor--what does it do?

[zugoi]

thanks for the variety of opinions...

i did primarily want to run at the local street tracks (buttonwillow / willow springs), but my friend's into drifting, so i might do that as well.

so bongnak, you say i can just unhook the belt to try it out?--i might just do that then. sounds like a good suggestion. not going to hurt anything if i do that right?

the thing is, i know there are lots of cars that come stock without power steering (or at least as a delete option) like the Lotus Elise / Exige and Acura NSX, Ferrari F40, etc. so why not this car?

personally, i don't mind physical torture as long as it gets me faster track times. (my original daily driver has a fixed seat, ultra-stiff short throw shifter, tough clutch, lowered, etc... and i drive +80-100mi/day!)

...hmm, maybe i'm as sadistic as spoonman?


The Nsx didnt have power steering? I had no idea.

[S14DB]

MR2's don't also. It is because they are REAR ENGINED cars. No weight over the front wheels to overcome.

Only reason I can see to remove it is for a drag car. The caster angle on the 240 makes it difficult to counter-steer and bring it back from lock.

[zugoi]

only the older boxy mr2s didnt come with power steering. The newer ones did. right?

[spoonman]

it is just a pressure sensor, just unplug it and ziptie up out of the way.

[spdfreek0o]

personally, i don't mind physical torture as long as it gets me faster track times.

I don't think you'll see faster track times from removing your powersteering. You might gain some power back from lightening the load of the accessories and the minimal weight savings from the pump. I can see doing this for a dedicated track car but only as a last resort in trying to find that extra bit of power.

[spoonman]

yeah, removing the entire p/s system takes about 25lbs off the car, and frees up a few more ponies, but probably not enought to improve your track times.

[withy]

not to mention that if you take it out entirely, the ps fluid is also the lubricant for the rack. you can go along time without it....but it does shorten the life of the rack.

[Orpheus]

yeah, removing the entire p/s system takes about 25lbs off the car, and frees up a few more ponies, but probably not enought to improve your track times.yeah, i don't really mean the weight savings. 25lbs compared to the 2500-2700lbs for this car is not significant. but like you mentioned before, there's the feel of the road that is so important to the street-track driver. and i assume that's the real reason why real race cars do not have power steering.

but of course, you don't counter-steer nearly as much doing track driving compared to drifting... so i guess if i am going to do any drifting at all (my friend would kill me if he knew i bought this car and won't even go drifting with him), i think it's unanimous in this thread that power steering is all but required.

i might just unhook the power steering for fun though, without moving it completely, to see what it's like. :)

[KA24DESOneThree]

Don't do it. If you're serious about track driving, you'll be running a minimum of 235/40R17 on the front of the car and you'll notice that on the Streets or Horsethief the tight turns will be hell on your arms and increase your fatigue greatly.

I'm shaving as much weight as I can off my car but don't want to remove the power steering. I have as much feel as I need with spherical bearings everywhere anyway.

If you want feel, what you need is less rubber and more spherical bearings. Do you have good aftermarket tension rods? Tie rod ends? Lower control arms? Aluminum steering bushing? If you still need feel, congratulations... you have no nerve endings.

[kink240]

yea i just got my s13 like 2 days ago... it is helll to drift with out p.s i need to fix it. if i was u i would keep it on but its up to

[aznpoopy]

only the older boxy mr2s didnt come with power steering. The newer ones did. right?

my friend has a 91 sw20 2nd gen and it doesn't have p/s either.

[HalveBlue]

Keep it.

A car without power steering is just plain annoying unless you plan on using it exclusively on the track. Even then I'd still think it'd be annoying.

Besides, your PS pump helps lubricate the PS rack. No PS fluid in PS rack for long enough = bad shit.

Until recently, I drove my car without PS for about a year. I hated every single god damn minute of it.

You'll feel every single dip, bump or curve in your steering wheel times ten. Some people will tell you that's "the feel of the road." I say it's just straight fucking gay.

Every single time I tried to park in a tight parking spot it took me hours to get the angles right. Old grandmas in their big ass Cadillacs could park quicker than me.

Be smart. Keep it.

[Antone]

i had no P/s on my coupe for about 2 months, and GOD I HATED IT. lol You gotta tug so hard my steering column bolts started loosening up. lol It's a major Pain in the ass, especially when you just want to chill and relax. but if you wana track the car, go FOR IT BUFF GUY! ahah

[trsilvias13]

I have no ps on one of my s-chasis. I like it because I park it in tight spot in my driveway blocking it off with another car. If someone wants to steal it, they better be very buff. You need to make at least 5 full turns to get out. For me it just one if I unblock my cars. I only drive my car like 10 miles a week anyways. Plus I have a DD (97 240sx) with PS.

[rossfashow]

I have no ps and it sucks for daily driving. well it sucks when you pull out of parking lots. or the driveway to turn. well at least ill have Popeye sized forearms.

[Orpheus]

hmm...

well, how 'bout a compromise?--can i somehow reduce the power-steering power? the steering in my '89 feels pretty soft compared to other sports cars i've driven. i used to have a car with 17" 275 size front tires, and the steering wheel only turned a little more than a 1/2 turn in either direction. that car was the most incredible steering car i have ever driven! it had power steering, but it almost felt like it was missing. but i tell you, taking turns in that car was awe-inspiring. you just turn the wheel, and you instantly change directions like those motorcycles in Tron.

so, any way to reduce the power by about 1/2, and to increase the ratio of car turning to the amount of steering wheel movement?... even my current 2nd car's steering is about 2x as stiff totally stock. guess changing the steering ratio would be the subject of a different thread...

[GSXRJJordan]

To answer the original question (again) - I drive my s13 with no power steering (no pump/no belt/capped lines) whenever it's running lol - daily, drift, etc. For everyday driving, I really dont miss it, cause the "feel" from suspension work, race seat and no p/s really gives the car the "kart" feeling... makes even a run around the block seem like a lap around the track. Aside from that, parking and stuff sucks. Countersteering is a little harder, but if you know the steering wheel angle you're looking for, you can find it and hold it just as well. As far as canyon and track driving, it's a blessing and a curse - you can tune the suspension better because you can feel every ounce of grip you've got, and when the front wants to break away, but on the flip side, tight transitions aren't as fast and it truely does increase driver fatigue (still feels like spending an afternoon in your recliner compared to riding a bike though).

About proportioning - you can't chane the amount of steering wheel movement that's needed for a given amount of steering angle, but you can change the proportioning valving so the power steering pump has less power. I forgot exactly which banjo bolt it was, but IIRC the one you see on top of the pump when looking down at the motor from the drivers side has the proportioning part at the end - basically a ball bearing and spring with a "shroud" around the end that sticks in the pump. Adding material to the shroud will reduce power, removing will increase power. I don't know how much will get you the results you want - I was playin around with it, but decided to try no pump at all, and stuck with it.

Lastly, pulling the belt is NOT the same as pulling the pump/lines. When you pull the belt, the steering rack (which is powered by those huge forearms of yours) is pushing fluid through the lines to move the pump, which increases steering effort A TON. Try removing the belt and the lines (warning: messy) and that'll give you a quick indication of what no p/s is like.

[EchoOfSilence]

Manual steering racks are much different than power steering racks.

[Xantcha]

Is it possible to swap in a manual steering rack?

[S14DB]

From what? All 240sx's came with PS.

[dct223]

Manual steering racks are much different than power steering racks.

word... using a PS rack with the pump removed does not mean you converted to manual steering...

if you have driven cars with a manual rack compared to a PS rack with no pump you will see the big difference.

[ispypsi]

you would have to find a comparable rack, and that might involve trimming the bushings (or thickening them) depending on the diameter of the rack. as far as tie rods go, you would have to make sure there is enough thread for adjustment, or find another replacement for that. it wouldn't be hard, but whether it's worth it or not is kinda personal preference. i dont think it would benefit unless you were doing intensive autocross or drift events, where you could take advantage of a manual rack with a quicker ratio, and a properly sized steering wheel. the tightness of the turns or quick need to go from lock to lock would be the only time i wouldnt run PS.

alot of honda guys run no PS, and run breather kits with a mini breather filter, or some sort of looped/blocked off rack. thus you can switch to a non-detergent style fluid and keep it sealed up. of course alot of base model honda civics and such came without power steering, so they at least have a factory option (and if u know honda's, every part fits every car). i dont think this is an option on S chassis racks, since we use an ATF fluid, so i'm not sure what it would take to seal it or convert it to manual w/o drying out the rack.

another whacky option is to fabricate your own steering box setup with idler arms (i think that is the proper term?) and whatnot, think of datsun 510 IIRC, no rack at all, just a box to convert the steering wheel motion into movement of steering arms.


btw, the PS oil pressure sensor on S chassis is used to bump the idle during full lock, as the increase in pressure in the lines will create the pump to work harder, slowing the idle. im sure anyone notices this when you start the car and try to turn the wheels with the vehicle stopped, and feel the car kinda bogging/straining.

[Matt H]

I remeber reading that a late 80s 280zx manual rack may fit the 240. Has anyone herd of that? We need somebody who works at a parts store to compare the two.