Stock brake improvments (not going big brake kit)

[s13dan]

Well, i have done some research and was wanting some help decided what do do with my Master cylinder. I have seen a lot of different cars with upgraded brakes that dont help stop the car stop a whole hell of a lot faster than stock. Sport compact in particular(with the miata this month, and the Mr2 a few months ago.Best stoping power in the super car challenge and it had stock brakes.) Im wanting to improve my braking but im not goin to buy Z32 brakes any other big brake kit.Im not racing in long duration, I see a lot of big brake kits help in heat disapation more than anything. So im thinking drilled rotors maybe,Carbon based pads of some sort,SS lines, and i dont know what master cylinder to go with? any idea for stock size rotors? or am i wrong all together with my theory?any one can speak from experience? any comment plz...thanx

[SRprelude]

yes larger brakes not only dissapate heat better, but they do give better stopping power. Tires play a HUGE role as well. the money you might spend upgrading stock shit, you may as well get Z32. I got Z brakes 3 years ago, and theres no better/cheaper way to TRUELY upgrade your brakes.

upgrade stock:
if you buy SS lines, theres $120 at least
slotted rotors $100 (drilled I wouldnt recommend)
good pads $50
S13 (automaic trans) brake master cyl $75

theres Z brake territory already............

[s13dan]

i know tires and good pads would help more than anything right now, but is there no other cheap alternative, i dont want to speed 500+ dollars for brakes right now, but if needbe i will later on.

[boosteds13]

i know tires and good pads would help more than anything right now, but is there no other cheap alternative, i dont want to speed 500+ dollars for brakes right now, but if needbe i will later on.
Good rotors and pads make the biggest difference.

[pr240sx]

slotted rotors and high performance pads and tires.
You can have a expensive as hell brake system and shitty tires and you will brake WORSE than stock

[g6civcx]

I don't recommend slotted discs due to shorter lifespan. Just get a set of Brembo solid discs. Slotted discs can work but will tend to warp more quickly, especially when the slotting is done with a drill press and not during manufacturing.

I recommend Hawk pads. Get in touch with them and they will get you the right compound for your application.

Flush your brake fluid and install new pads and discs. Check for leaks while you're at it. It should help your braking dramatically.

[aznpoopy]

yes larger brakes not only dissapate heat better, but they do give better stopping power.

they don't give you better stopping power. they give you more power to lock up your wheels.

if you can lock up your wheels with stock brakes, you aren't gaining anything except resistance to fade and less leg effort to lock.

listen to g6civic.

don't get slots. waste of cash. tires first... then blanks & good pads, and a thorough flush/bleed. you aren't going to experience brake fade on the street (unless you're driving like an idiot). if you are going racing on the track, buy some race pads with high temperature rating and swap em out for the event.

if you run a few events and find you are fading, then you should consider going with bigger brakes.

[s13dan]

Cool, ill do that, ill flush the system out real good, get some hawk pads, i think Jegs carries them now or ebay, i will most likey get a new MC from nissan mine is old and leaks just a scoush, chech for any other leaks, tires of course most likey ST115.Im not a crazy ass auto Xer that has a lot of cash so ill see how this does. Any suggestions on master cylinder? nissan brand for sure but is there a difference and auto v.s. 5 speed MC? or Z31?

[OptionZero]

auto s14 has bigger brake booster

not sure if you need a different master cylinder, just make sure yours is not leaking or anything

get Kumho Mx's; Azenis RT-615's, Hankook RS2- Z212 if you don't care that much about treadwear, you'll feel a difference immediately

paint your calipers too, that will cut 10 ft off your 60-0 distance

[neilsan]

I got axxis pads for my original rotors and did a fresh bleed with 240sxmotoring stainless lines... it was a night and day difference. felt like i had 2x the clamp force. Still can't quite threshhold the brakes, one side always locks up before the other for some reason... i think because I am using the original rotors and the pads havent worn away their initial stamp form yet so they grab the rusty edge of the rotor randomly. I like the axxis pads very much but I can feel them start to fade if I blast on the highway and have to do a few hard stops within half a minute of each other...

i want arizonaZcar front brakes an evo rear conversion :naughtyd:

[g6civcx]

they don't give you better stopping power. they give you more power to lock up your wheels.

if you can lock up your wheels with stock brakes, you aren't gaining anything except resistance to fade and less leg effort to lock.


This isn't entirely true. How much braking force you can apply to each wheel depends on weight transfer and tyre. How quickly you can convert kinetic energy into heat determines braking distance.

Yes, stock brakes can provide adequate clamping force to lock the wheels, but larger brakes can absorb more heat because there is more mass, thus allowing you to stop more quickly. Plus being that they're bigger and get more ventilation, they can resist fading better.

But the point is that disc and pad compound matter more than size. If you have a poorly designed big brake kit you're going to be worse off than if you stuck with stock brakes and a good set of discs and pads.

[infinitexsound]

suck it up and buy a q45 setup if u dont wanna go z32... some ss lines and good pads and cheap rotors... best way for gettin rid of heat... is making a brake duct system using something similar to aero tubing.... but u dont need that on a daily driver.... u cant go wrong with good brakes..

[OptionZero]

oh yeah, run less camber...you'll have more straightline grip and therefore more braking ability

[s13dan]

Awesome, thanx guys, ill be getting some pads and tires asap. Ill be sure to look for leaks cuz my brake pedel feels spongy now, and i am used to it, i know my braking distance and can tell when they start to lock up pretty well, so any improvment would be fantastic.

[rps13dreams]

I am using axxis pads with brembo blanks. I dont recommend axxis. The axxis pads are very hard on the rotors. My rotors warped very fast and sometimes they sound like metal-metal, but I still have like 80% left. They do have an excellent initial bite, though. I think I will try hawks next. I recommend Kuhmo ASX tires. Great traction and so far, they are lasting.

[MovinUp-1]

Awesome, thanx guys, ill be getting some pads and tires asap. Ill be sure to look for leaks cuz my brake pedel feels spongy now, and i am used to it, i know my braking distance and can tell when they start to lock up pretty well, so any improvment would be fantastic.

IF your pedal is spongy you need to check for leaks, check the master cylinder, and completely drain and flush out the old brake fluid. Castrol GTLMA is a decent off the shelf brake fluid. Ford brake fluid from the dealership is very high quality at a decent price. Spend your money here first. Then get new pads and check your rotors. Slotted and drilled rotors do nothing for reduced stopping distance. Carbotech pads are very good. Check into them.

[s13dan]

cool, im doing a "tune up" on my car here pretty soon and ill make sure to do check for leaks and ill get some castrol fluid.

[wootwoot]

Also do a complete brake flush and switch to DOT 5.1 fluid with the highest boiling point you can find-in your price range. I'd stay away from carbon pads, organic are generally better for street use with their intial bite and lower operating temperatures. I definitely agree with all statements reguarding slotted/drilled. Just get blanks.
Does anyone know if there really is any difference in material quality between the Brembos and the Asian no name rotors I could get cost for 11 bucks rear and 17 bucks front? I mean everyone recommends Brembo but I really wonder if there is actually a difference.
Reguarding the mastercylinder/brake booster, Ive never heard of upgrading on a completely stock system so...?
Something else I want to do is custom brake ducting. That would contribute substantially to avoiding fade

[Irukandji]

Cheap and effective: SS lines, Cheap rotors from Napa Auto, Super blue brake fluid, and Axxis Ultimate pads.

you just need to know where to look, I spent less than $200 on my entire setup.

[kenversusryu]

ss lines will improve the brake pedal feel dramatically.

Just get good set of pads. If you aren't considering going to a track, i don't really see the need for a full brake upgrade.

Just get Pads and work from there.

[SoSideways]

Won't DOT 5.1 brake fluid eat through rubber lines?

[EchoOfSilence]

Won't DOT 5.1 brake fluid eat through rubber lines?
yes, you need SS lines to handle dot5

[Irukandji]

5.1 is fine, 5 is not. Just thought I'd make that clear.


More Info: http://www.gs610.com/abc.htm

[wootwoot]

5.1 and 5.0 are completely different. Do not make the mistake of putting 5 in your car

[SRprelude]

Cheap and effective: SS lines, Cheap rotors from Napa Auto, Super blue brake fluid, and Axxis Ultimate pads.

you just need to know where to look, I spent less than $200 on my entire setup.

thats nice too!!!!

if ya got 350-400 you can do Z's and never need an upgrade, but its all depends on what you need the car for.

[SRprelude]

they don't give you better stopping power. they give you more power to lock up your wheels.

big brake upgrades dont just give you a greater chance of LOCK-UP.:squint: They significantly reduce brake fade and in some cases shorten your 60-0 foot braking distance. Other factors come into play obviously...... like pads, tires, road conditions........so dont say they dont give better stopping power, cuz i have a lot of canyons around my home and I've NEVER faded Z brakes like many friends have with stock brakes. Greater stopping power is available when you need it the most.

I don't recommend slotted discs due to shorter lifespan. Just get a set of Brembo solid discs. Slotted discs can work but will tend to warp more quickly,

Really?? Ive had my Brembo slotted Z32 rotors for more than 3 years, and Ive abused them with no problem. But at least Brembo blanks will save you some $$$

In my opinion, go with DOT 4 and a new s13 A/T brake mast. cyl.

[aznpoopy]

big brake upgrades dont just give you a greater chance of LOCK-UP.:squint: They significantly reduce brake fade and in some cases shorten your 60-0 foot braking distance. Other factors come into play obviously...... like pads, tires, road conditions........so dont say they dont give better stopping power, cuz i have a lot of canyons around my home and I've NEVER faded Z brakes like many friends have with stock brakes. Greater stopping power is available when you need it the most.


try reading what i say instead of glancing over it. :squint:

they don't give you better stopping power. they give you more power to lock up your wheels.

#1 do your brakes actually come into physical contact with the ground? no? good. mine don't either. therefore brakes do not stop the car. they stop the wheels from rotating which in turn stops the car.

#2 your tires stop the car. remember that. why do tires lock when you slam on the brakes? because they are the weak link in the chain. when you lock your wheels, you have exceeded the maximum grip of the tires.

follow that? good. what is the advantage of bigger rotors and pads (with regard to power to stop your wheels from rotating)? more contact patch between the rotor and pad. what is the advantage of more contact patch? more friction. more power to stop your wheels from rotating. NOT more power to stop the car.

now read this carefully. if your stock brakes can lock up the wheels already, what do you gain from that increased contact patch with your fancy schmancy big brakes? you exert less pedal effort to lock the wheels! wonderful! you can lock the wheels harder! joy. does that stop your car faster? no.

which leads to me to my conclusion, which also covered brake fade. reading skills man. see?

if you can lock up your wheels with stock brakes, you aren't gaining anything except resistance to fade and less leg effort to lock.

1. you gain resistance vs fading
2. less effort to get to lock

now if you have super grippy tires, then you may suddenly find that your stock brakes are insufficient to lock the wheels. you slam on them all day and the wheels never lock up. why? the weak link in the chain is now your brake system. the tires are so awesome, your brakes just aren't strong enough to lock the wheels anymore. this is one instance in which you would want to go to bigger brakes.

the other instance is when you are running some track event and you find yourself fading the brakes even when you have high temperature track pads. yes, they make special pads that withstand uber high temperatures without brake fade. if you find yourself fading these suckers, then you also want to consider upgrading to larger brakes.

[SRprelude]

ok AZNpoop, referring back to my first reply to s13DAN...........

yes larger brakes not only dissapate heat better, but they do give better stopping power. Tires play a HUGE role as well. the money you might spend upgrading stock shit, you may as well get Z32.

i am aware of the processes that take place between your foot pressing on the brake and the vehicle coming to a stop. I also stated there were many factors that come into play when improving your braking system. One of them being tires. Obviously i wouldnt tell someone with a bone stock 240sx, rollin on dry-rotted H rated tires to go get Z brakes. But in his initial post, he was asking what he could do to upgrade his braking performance w/o going the Z32 route. All i did was make some suggestions...... and i didnt need your sarcasm

Stop over-alalyzing everything. I mean c'mon, you actually took the time to do a full write up on how a car comes to a stop? cool beans! :down: forum whore. post #'s dont mean shit. Lets hope you can drive as good as you run your mouth

[aznpoopy]

if you're going to quote me, misunderstand what i say and then criticize me based on your mistake, then expect a thorough reply.

i never said anything about post count. why bring that into it?

[OptionZero]

This thread should honestly be stickied, that response a couple posts above is perfect.

[Neejay]

Would you guys recommend getting SS lines for the front AND back?

I just installed ss lines (front) and new autoparts store rotors and left my current brake pads in there (plenty of pad left and hardly any brake dust). When these wear down, I'll pick up some hawk hps pads. I havent driven the car with these on yet because Im going to do a caliper rebuild on all 4 calipers.

When I first bought the car, my calipers were shot, so I bought some brakes off a front clip (which turned out to be a 180sx, which I didnt know at the time). So I just had to get altima rotors and 240sx ABS pads (same as maxima pads).

[SoSideways]

Getting SS lines front and rear will be 100% goodness.

Just the front = half assing, literally.

However, most of your braking's done with the front brakes, but if you want consistent brake pedal feelings 100% of the time, then get the rears as well.

[Neejay]

Getting SS lines front and rear will be 100% goodness.

Just the front = half assing, literally.

However, most of your braking's done with the front brakes, but if you want consistent brake pedal feelings 100% of the time, then get the rears as well.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense because if the front lines were SS and the rear was rubber, could that make the rear rubber lines expand even more when stopping?

[SoSideways]

I dunno, it might.

It's just that the lines are so cheap ($45 each from splparts.com) and it takes like an extra 5 min each side to swap them out that it's silly not to get them. They're soooooooooooooooooooooo worth the money.

[Neejay]

I dunno, it might.

It's just that the lines are so cheap ($45 each from splparts.com) and it takes like an extra 5 min each side to swap them out that it's silly not to get them. They're soooooooooooooooooooooo worth the money.
Yeah, I got SPL for the fronts, and I JUST ordered them for the rear :)

[SRprelude]

rears are always good, and the fronts can be sold easily if you ever need to upgrade.
what n1sm0r said earlier sounds good ,and at 200 or less its half the cost of Z's

Im assuming you have good grippy tires????.......if not, Ive had a lot of luck with used tires. Sometimes you can find them lookin brand new for $30 each if you search around the local tire stores. New tires, i would look into some Yokohama AVS es100 or the NEW Kumho Ecsta SPT. i like them alot and they perform great for the price.

[OptionZero]

fuck the spt or es100.

Get hankook RS2 z212s at least

[SRprelude]

yea, but my suggestion was a little cheaper and still great tires.....either way w/e

[wootwoot]

Performance is not cheap =D

[Marcos]

5.1 is fine, 5 is not. Just thought I'd make that clear.


More Info: http://www.gs610.com/abc.htm


Good article...

[OptionZero]

cheaper, yes.

better, no.

[bcrume]

get some ss lines, endless brake pads, a set of brembo blanks and good fluid; I use motul. Thats what I have and it works great. my front pads are gone now and I was gonna resurface the rotor and replace the pads but am going to get bigger brakes instead. I have a set of brand new in the box endless front sss-s brake pads for sale, pm me if you want them. The fit on s13/s14 without abs. Even if you don't buy the set I have for sale, endless makes the best pad you'll be able to get.

[Dopefish]

Importnutoutlines the many reasons differant parts are to be used from the Z, etc.
http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm

The MC will be the single greatest improvement. The larger discs improve fade resistance and the extra pistons improve clamping force. The drum-style e-brake improves emergency braking and resistance when parking on a hill. The Z brakes are the best bang for the buck IMO offering a wide range of improvements that aftermarket kits do not offer.

I understand you dont want to use the larger brakes from another vehicle or kit so consider these options:

The 240sx MC is too small, it offers resistance in the pedal but only flows well enough to supply pressure to the stock brake system. It is truely at the limits of its ability already, you'll see noticable improvements in braking power with the larger MC, upgraded pads and some good fluid. If you are still not happy, consider stainless steel lines and then Z32 fronts. Also understand that slotted/drilled rotors do not improve street performance and are the last item to consider when working on a track setup as many other areas are considered 'trouble-points' prior to the disc's themselves. They are twice as expensive as regular performance discs and dont offer than gains other items would improve upon.

I fully intend to do a complete Z32 swap, including MC, front and rear disc/calipers and e-brake. The proportioning valve is similar in both systems with the only differance being the split-point. Given this minor differance replacing the proportioning valve is not needed and will not hinder performance or safety in any way.

~Kris

[HyperTek]

yah upgrading stock brakes is cool and cost effective.. but brake fade is no joke. Try to keep them running cooler otherwise your going to be hating the setup when the time comes.

[s13dan]

i prefer falken tires, and my uncle bob owns a tire shop so ima lucky bastard.cheap new tires rock my face off.

[IAM_SO_sLOw]

hmm... i was wondering how do you guys feel towards..q45 fronts w/ SS lines all around? i just put thoes on recently but i kinda want to get rear q45 brakes also...should i get the rears too or just leave it?
-thanks

[OptionZero]

I have q45 fronts and stock s14 rears on my s14, and they have held up fine on the track. Porterfield R4-S pads, SS line all around. 225/45/17 RT-615/(formerly 215s) all around.

I'm not an expert driver by any means, but I like the setup, and Q45 brakes are pretty cheap; problem is finding performance pads for them.

oh, and I have an auto brake booster which is larger than the manual one...if that makes a noticeable difference.

[Dutchmalmiss]

what are options for upgrading the mc?

[kazuo]

I suggest against using Axxis Ultimates... they eat your rotors.

Get Metal Masters instead.

[Irukandji]

^ I had the opposite problem. metal masters are horrible when theyre cold and they glazed up my rotors super fast from daily driving. I've been running my ultimates and could not be happier.
They dust a lot, but they're quiet and stop on a dime.
BTW i still have stock brakes all around.

[autobahNESSA]

its other way around.
ultamate eat ur rotors- leave lots of brake dust.
metal masters dont eat ur rotors.

Ultamates just seem to have a stronger initail bite, making it easy to lock the wheel. their heat resistance is aobut the same as metal masters, stick with metal masters. that quick bite can hurt in the rain.

Ive run many sets of each, currently have ultamates up front with Z brakes, and metal masters in the rear.

[SoSideways]

Yeah, I have Axxis Ultimate in the front, and when I put those on I also put on a pair of Brembo x-drilled/slotted rotors that I got from my gf as a birthday gift.

I've had it for less than a year, and so far, the pads have eaten through my rotors quite fast. I don't forsee the rotors being good for more than another half a year at the current rate, although the pads will probably be gone before that.

And yes, they do dust a lot.

I just put a set of brand new HOEzigens on there, and within 1 week, the hyperblack has turned into a bronze like finish. Even a quick cleaning with the Meguire's brake dust cleaner chemical plus rinse didn't get rid of the dust. Have to scrub them pretty good this weekend.

I'd suggest getting some Hawk HPS as I have heard a lot of good things about them.

[aznpoopy]

hawks also dust quite a bit, unfortunately. they take a stop or two to warm up in the morning before they bite normally.

otherwise, i don't have anything particularly bad to say about them.

[nissantuner22]

im running hawks. a little dusty after say... a month or so of running stop and go. In conjunction with brembo blanks, and new fluid, the difference is night and day over stock. It does however take 2-3 stops to warm em up, they suck ass for the first few.

[slider2828]

I am running project mu's b force on iron z32 front calipers. SPL SS lines all around. New 240sx MC and booster. You know the rebuilt 240sx MC ones that gas mckenzie uses are awesome. Easier install, same design as 300zx, correct piston ratio, no brake fade at all. Braking is never a worry, except running hot into a corner or locking up brakes.... But awesome.... P Mu's Bforce, medium brake dust, low squeek, very nice on your rotors. Ultimates, chewed the SH!T outta my rotors, high squeek, high dust = expensive POS. Rear I used satisfied ceramics = low squeek, medium brake dust, awesome since most braking comes from front. Good for touge.... GL

[Neejay]

im running hawks. a little dusty after say... a month or so of running stop and go. In conjunction with brembo blanks, and new fluid, the difference is night and day over stock. It does however take 2-3 stops to warm em up, they suck ass for the first few.
What kind of fluid are you running?

[SRprelude]

I run Valvoline synthetic DOT4 (abs approved too, but doesnt matter)
its good fluid and easy to find at the local autoparts store

[Neejay]

I run Valvoline synthetic DOT4 (abs approved too, but doesnt matter)
its good fluid and easy to find at the local autoparts store
hmm...I just replaced my front rotors, caliper rebuild kit on all 4, and installed ss lines on the front (gotta install the rear within the next 2-3 days. I filled it up with autoparts store fluid...heh. Didn't think it would matter too much, since I only daily drive. (I also have altima rotors and 240sx ABS pads)

[SoSideways]

I was looking at the Project Mu B-Force pads. It's either those or the NS pads.

According to Phase2's site, it says that both of those pads are good from like 0-400 degree Celsius, and that the NS has a better initial bite.

If that's the case, the NS pads seem like a better pad to go with than the B-Force for the street and some tracking?

[slider2828]

I have had both... I like Bforce cause it is more progressive, but NS' are more like EBC, bite and then fades a little. Depends what you use it for, but NS has 3 compounds, street, sport, and race. I am sure phase2 sells street because that is what i got from them on their website. B force hard you step the harder it locks. Up to you and your driving style.

I would assume NS is more for trail breaking and BForce for pure stopping force...

[SoSideways]

Well, if you've had both, then how are their performance on the street?

Like, are they both low dust? Low noise? Easy on rotors? Have you tracked them before?

For me, my car's a daily driver, which I take to the track a few times a year, and I will start to attend drift events when it's ready, so I am wanting pads that will be able to do all the above.