RW - PW - Mohammed Cartoons

[Andrew Bohan]

so yea, some guys made some cartoons making fun of mohammed, then a bunch of people got mad about it and started some shit.

i understand that it is considered blasphemous to muslims to make pictures of mohammed, but why was the reaction what it was?

i mean, for example, jesus is a common name for mexicans (and other hispanics? i don't know), but that is taboo to white, black, asian christians, etc (at least in the US anyway), but the whites and blacks and asian christians don't burn down mexicans' houses for naming their kids jesus. it's just tolerated and accepted as something that they do.

so why did so many people in the middle east get so violent about it? is it like ten million times worse than naming a kid jesus or something? or just some expession of the ongoing tension between the west and the middle east?

i'd like to hear as many angles as possible. hopefully some of zilvia's muslims can help me understand a little better.

[P4rD0nM3]

One of my classmates said that durin' the early Christian period(s), early Christians burned down churches and killed monks that do not follow what the Pope said. Although you can argue that it was like a hundred to a thousand years ago when it happened and most of the world have matured.

I'm a Roman Catholic Christian and I don't know much about Islam...but I was just wondering if they have a similar translation of "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you." MATTHEW 5:44

All I hear is 'Destroy the enemies of Allah!!!', though some of my muslim friends says otherwise...

[1Via!]

The most common name in the world is Mohammed, I don't think that analogy holds up. Reguardless, it seems to me that the violent reaction is a very small section of islamic society.
What makes me personally angry about this situation is that the european publications that reprinted these cartoons like 5 months after their initial printing and controversy don't seem to have any remorse about stirring up all of this trouble. I am in no way discouraging freedom of the press, but there has to be limits of good judgement on their part to keep from printing inflamitory and irresponsible language. IMO, the conservative western european publications that reprinted these comics almost maliciously are almost as responsible as the reactionary elements of the islamic world that jumped all over this and commited any violence during protests, which should not suprise anyone.

[infinitexsound]

wrong time, wrong idea, wrong its just plain outright wrong....treat others they way u would like to be treated - MY MOM

[Andrew Bohan]

The most common name in the world is Mohammed, I don't think that analogy holds up.

the point was that those are both things that one religion (or sect) believes is wrong and another one doesn't see any problem with, and how the first one reacts when the other one does it.

anyways, keep the comments coming.

[kazuo]

Muslims are strictly against producing imagery of ANY of the Prophets, Angels, God, etc., for fear that it can lead to idoltary. (You know, worshipping statues and shit)

Also

It is to prevent people from having misconceptions of what the Prophets look like. For example, does ANYONE think Jesus looks like what the common images of his likeness is?

I don't.

As far as the uproar over it, there was a report in the news last weekend that the Saudis drummed up a furor over it to cover up some accident or something that happened there.

Ask Google.

Lastly, notice that while people criticize certain "Muslim" publications as ridiculing Jews, Christians, etc., notice they never EVER clown on ANY of the Prophets.

Why?

Cause Muslims have the same Prophets as the Jews (except for Jesus, and Muhammad, of course, lol) and the Christians.

Thus one can argue that such argument is moot.

My two cents.

[240trainee]

Yea, there is the same acestry here. One of my History profs put it a pretty cool way.

The Jewish people got the first chance

Christians traditionally didn't get along with Jews because traditional Jewish people "missed the boat" so to speak.

Muslims don't like Christians because THEY "missed the boat" with Mohammed, and the Jews really screwed it up by missing Jesus AND Muhammed.

Kinda like a tree with the Jewish people at the base, and then branching off from there. Interesting was of looking at it, explains alot for me. Many of the teachings are similar, just the whol way to salvation deal is different. And to me, Radical Muslims today are like the Crusaders. How you intepert God's will through scripture radiclly affects how you will act. Thats why you have Muslims who condemn Jihad, and those that think of it as the true path. I'm sure someone will chime in with the quote from the Koran about Jihad, I forgot it, about martyrdom.

[SilviaNinja240]

As interesting as religion is, its always good to have a sence of humor about it.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/LukaD/1122554020197.jpg

[skatanic28]

they are free to burn our flag, i am free to draw pictures of whatever i want, and maybe even burn them after.

i cant wait til someone makes a cartoon of this in flash.

[HaLo]

See, what people seem to forget is that when your portray the prophet of Islam as a terrorist, it's not terrorism you attack, but fundamental values of a Muslims. If those drawings were Osama Bin Laden, no one would've cared.

[Phlip]

I agree with Halo on this one, this is not flag burning or anything of that nature. The fact of the matter is that, in the west, we have more of a sense of humor about religion than we should. If we all (or those that actually do believe anything) believed as deeply as we should, "Jesus Christ!" would not be the first thing out of someone's mouth, Alanis Morrisette would not play God in a movie and Charlton Heston would not have been Moses in a movie.

... wait, Heston would have been Moses, but I digress.

The fact of the matter is that these are dealings with a group of individuals who still hold their prophets and such sacred, so to make cartoons and parodies of them is sacrilege, if not blasphemous. I do not blame anyone for getting upset, nor do I think of it as overreacting.

[!Zar!]

Well, the whole reason it is taboo, because ages ago they use to worship any and everything. So Mohammed came and said that NOTHING shall ever be depicted as something they worship. Even himself. And still holding true to that today. They uphold that law not to say what he looks like or even worse to draw bombs and such in his turban.

I agree they are doing what they should be.

[citizen]

As interesting as religion is, its always good to have a sence of humor about it.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/LukaD/1122554020197.jpg

http://postarchives.entensity.net/122105/sins.jpg

[nistech]

they are free to burn our flag, i am free to draw pictures of whatever i want, and maybe even burn them after.

i cant wait til someone makes a cartoon of this in flash.

this is retarded there is a diffrence between a country and religion. you can do anything you want about their country but u cant just do what ever you want with a religion.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg
its not about the humor they are just pissed because there is a bomb on mohammeds head and they dont want people to think every muslim is a terorist. there are countries out there who are in war with terrorism and they happen to be a muslim country.

[wootwoot]

But if you do not want to think every Muslim is a terrosit, wouldnt not starting riots in the streets be a good idea? They are practicing the religion wrong here!!!! Violence=bad. Whatever happend to peaceful protest? I can understand why they are pissed, yeah thats fine. But what they are doing out of it is ridiculous and also contradictory.
I hate religious freaks who cant even follow their own practice. Nutso Christians/Muslims killing everyone! When was the last time you heard about Jews' going out and killing anyone in mass or Budhists for that matter? Something isnt right about that...
Iam free to burn our flag, fuck our flag who cares. You leave my constitution out of this though or I'll kick your ass. Our constitution says I can burn our flag and I have that right =P

[skatanic28]

its not about the humor they are just pissed because there is a bomb on mohammeds head and they dont want people to think every muslim is a terorist.
i guess they are sending the right message by rioting; destroying cars, buildings, and property; killing each other; burning flags and chanting "down with america" along with other the things then, huh?

they dont control the world or the people in it, they need to get over it.

[SimpleSexy180]

there was nothing else to talk about in the news?

[nistech]

i guess they are sending the right message by rioting; destroying cars, buildings, and property; killing each other; burning flags and chanting "down with america" along with other the things then, huh?

they dont control the world or the people in it, they need to get over it.

still u dont get it... u could say whatever you want about them and their country. i m a muslim and you have no right to humiliate my religion because of what few arabs are doing in iraq or iran you cant just say muslims are terrorists.

[theicecreamdan]

could it be that the people rioting are worried about whether they really believe what they want to? Could something like this be their chance to "prove" that they really do believe as strongly as they would want the world to see it?

The same way that people will go out of their way to hurt, and sometimes kill somebody in the US due to sexuality etc... to prove to everyone how "straight" they really are.

its not about the humor they are just pissed because there is a bomb on mohammeds head and they dont want people to think every muslim is a terorist. there are countries out there who are in war with terrorism and they happen to be a muslim country.

Yet these people that don't want to be associated with the terrorists, are going out and rioting, and burning, and killing people. Your response is VERY justifiable, the rioters response, is not.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by 240trainee
Yea, there is the same acestry here. One of my History profs put it a pretty cool way.

The Jewish people got the first chance

Christians traditionally didn't get along with Jews because traditional Jewish people "missed the boat" so to speak.

Muslims don't like Christians because THEY "missed the boat" with Mohammed, and the Jews really screwed it up by missing Jesus AND Muhammed.

Your assuming Christians, Jews and Muslims all have the same concept of God...they don't. Christians and traditional Jews worship the same God. But Islam's concept of God is skewed from the one presented in the Bible. Islam rejects everything in the Bible after Ishmael leaves Abraham (Genesis:21)...which is where you have the split between Jews and Muslims. Jews are the descendents of Issac, and Muslims of Ishmael, and each thinks that they are Abrahams true heirs, and the followers of the one true God. It is important to remember though that Christianity existed 600 years before Islam. Anyway, this can take hours to explain and go through.

If anyone wants to know more you can PM me or something and I'll give you my email.

[nistech]

Yet these people that don't want to be associated with the terrorists, are going out and rioting, and burning, and killing people. Your response is VERY justifiable, the rioters response, is not.

they are not rioting they are attacking danish and belgian embassies and mcdonals kfc and shit like that
i mean it can still be considered as rioting but they got a target. what else could they do?

[theicecreamdan]

something to shows that they, and terrorists, are not the same people.

Lash back with a cartoon that shows the newspaper editors as stupid and uneducated. Maybe make the effort to tell the world that what was done hurt their feelings DEEPLY and that they really don't appreciate seeing their prophets in cartoons. I for one did not know how much a cartoon like that could offend a group of people that deeply.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by i'm driftaholic
i mean, for example, jesus is a common name for mexicans (and other hispanics? i don't know), but that is taboo to white, black, asian christians, etc (at least in the US anyway), but the whites and blacks and asian christians don't burn down mexicans' houses for naming their kids jesus. it's just tolerated and accepted as something that they do.

I don't know if you speak spanish...but in the hispanic name the "je" makes the same sound as "hey" and the "sus" is more of a "soos" It is not pronunced the same as Jesus, as in Jesus Christ, just spelled the same.

Besides, I don't think many Christians would be upset if it were the same. It's the work of Jesus Christ and his message that is the most important to us (yes, I'm a Christian). And if any people has a right to upset about being offended it is Christians. No one else is ridiculed and tolerates as much offensive material (mainly the media) about thier religion as Christians.

[theicecreamdan]

Mexico is hugely catholic, along with a LOT of spanish speaking countries. Heysoos is Jesus is the same person, whether you pronounce it differently for a different language or not. You're right, we aren't upset about it, they use the name for their kids out of respect and love for it. They aren't trying to say that they are god and that their kid is the savior.

[mRclARK1]

Origianlly psted by theicecreamdan
Mexico is hugely catholic, along with a LOT of spanish speaking countries. Heysoos is Jesus is the same person, whether you pronounce it differently for a different language or not. You're right, we aren't upset about it, they use the name for their kids out of respect and love for it. They aren't trying to say that they are god and that their kid is the savior.

That was pretty much what I was trying to say...I read what I wrote again and I know I made it sound like it isn't the same name. Sorry.

From my spanish-english dictionary

Jesus- Spanish-related. (Hebrew) "The Lord is salvation." Short form of Joshua, from the Hebrew name Jehoshua. The name of the biblical Christ is very frequently used as a given name in Hispanic cultures. Spanish pronunciation is hay-SOOS.

[wootwoot]

something to shows that they, and terrorists, are not the same people.

Lash back with a cartoon that shows the newspaper editors as stupid and uneducated. Maybe make the effort to tell the world that what was done hurt their feelings DEEPLY and that they really don't appreciate seeing their prophets in cartoons. I for one did not know how much a cartoon like that could offend a group of people that deeply.


Did you the peaceful protest that had donkeys with signs with the names of nations who had offended them. That made me laugh =)
I spent some time trying to find the picture but I couldnt...Dang!
The entire thing is absurd and a majority of the people never even saw the picture. Beside a formal apology what do they be able to expect to happen?

[unwed_transient]

Beside a formal apology what do they be able to expect to happen?apparently they want a few choice people dead.

[Andrew Bohan]

Mexico is hugely catholic, along with a LOT of spanish speaking countries, etc, etc

i deliberately avoid saying catholics, since that's not the qualifier. i have never heard of any irish catholics named jesus, for example. the tendancy to name kids jesus seems to be more cultural than religious, even though it is for a religious reason.

and yes, jesus is jesus, no matter which cognate you use.

[ManoNegra]

I don't know about speaking 'Hispanic'... lol...
We're Latinos not Hispanic and we speak Spanish. 99% of latinamerica is Catholic and is a very common practice to give children biblical names (Jesus, Moises, Gabriel, etc). As a matter of fact, some of the very debout name their kids after the patron saint day they're born under - which explains why some guys get named Guadalupe from time to time in Mexico.

I've never witness a conversation about religion turn out well so this one should be interesting. What I'm curious about is how many other atheists are out there.

[midnight zenki]

Quote:
Originally Posted by skatanic28
i guess they are sending the right message by rioting; destroying cars, buildings, and property; killing each other; burning flags and chanting "down with america" along with other the things then, huh?

they dont control the world or the people in it, they need to get over it.


still u dont get it... u could say whatever you want about them and their country. i m a muslim and you have no right to humiliate my religion because of what few arabs are doing in iraq or iran you cant just say muslims are terrorists.

Actually I can say whatever I want about your religion, its my right. The truth of the matter is I don't beleive in it or any other for that matter so why should I have to abide by your "religious laws". Despite how little thought and respect went in to those cartoons our fundemental construction as a country and I believe as humans allows me to say whatever I feel. Our constitution allows me to beleive or disbeleive anything I like, unfortunatley other countries are governed by religion and therefore repress any dissedence that might otherwise go against thier holy doctorine.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted ManoNegra
I don't know about speaking 'Hispanic'...

oops. what I wrote should have read like this....
Originally posted by mRclARK1
but in the hispanic name

I've spent lots of time in south america...I know you don't speak hispanic.

[wootwoot]

apparently they want a few choice people dead.


I hate people...Blacks, christians, latinos, hispanics, asians, pacific, whites, all yall fuckers. This is ok because I hate all of you!

[kazuo]

I don't know about speaking 'Hispanic'... lol...
We're Latinos not Hispanic and we speak Spanish.

Except that you're not Latin, cause Latins are from Italy.

Also

You ARE Hispanic, because practically everyone that isn't 100% native in Mexico/South America is at least half Spanish.

Whoops!

But I digress.

This does not relate to the thread topic whatsoever.

ON TOPIC: I will put it to you this way:

Burn my flag, I could care less
Burn my God, I'll slit your throat

Maybe now you understand why "they" are so "angry."

[Andrew Bohan]

yeah he's hispanic, but he doesn't SPEAK hispanic.

BUT, the argument could be made that he is latin too, since the romans (who started off by being the latins) ruled hispania (spain and portugal), as well as gallia (gaul, aka france), italia (italy), etc and more than likely displaced/bred with the native people there. in any case, the common latin replaced native languages and became dialects and eventually the languages that we know today as portuguese, spanish, french, italian, etc

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/monde/images/hispania-mapa2.gif

but now we're way off topic.


hokay, so!
the point has been made that back in the day, some crazy christians did some similar shit to other religions. true. and some crazy muslims did some similar shit back in the day too. but now it's now. all kinds of people talk shit about and insult other kinds of people, or have religious/cultural objections to what other people do. most of the time, it's tolerated or even not given a shit about. i just think it's interesting that these mohammed cartoons are considered so wrong by some muslims that they'd kill people about it.

[ManoNegra]

LATINO not latin. We don't come from Europe although we have European blood and influence in us. Our culture is a mixture of Spainish , African and Native beliefs.

You ARE Hispanic, because practically everyone that isn't 100% native in Mexico/South America is at least half Spanish.

and that's just plain ignorant. You forget a large majority of Latinamericans are black descendants. We're all mutts but what do I know, it's not like I was born there or studied my culture.

Now back to your regular discussion.

[Tenchuu]

I belive that everyone has the right to thier own opinions, but i thought that this little post someone else made raises some good questions that could be answewred:

this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt.
No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back.
No Muslim outrage.

Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world.
No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge.
No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed.

Muslims are outraged.


Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"


I don't think i could put it better myself. kind of like how the christians are openly not in support of crazy extremeists, why do muslims just laugh it off whenever some stupid stuff breaks loose?

[mRclARK1]

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

- The Koran

If any Muslim out there would like to tell me how this should be interperted differently...I'm all ears.

I do realize that alot of Muslims are good, law-abiding people who have done nothing to warrant the treatment they must sometimes recieve. But alot of them are also downright fanatical...many of them (I have heard this personally) describe killing Americans, Britons, Canadians, any Christian, any Jew, any unbeliever as a duty. All must be converted or killed. This is what many of these people believe. NOT ALL of them...but more then just a select few. Until Islam, as a whole, itself deals with these people, you will just see more of this. But I doubt that will ever happen.

It is the right of anyone to believe what they want to...but it is also the right of anyone, or any nation(s), to defend themselves when attacked. This whole thing is about more than politics or (if you think so) oil. It is about religion, and conflicts thousands of years old.

[Var]

this is retarded there is a diffrence between a country and religion. you can do anything you want about their country but u cant just do what ever you want with a religion.


Sure you can. That's called freedom of speech. I can say all kinds of shit about any religion. I choose not to out of respect. And if i did say anything about Islam, down to the worst thing you can imagine, nothing will justify what happened. What happened is an example of primitive thinking.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg
I dont find this picture to be funny. But maybe someone else did. So kudos to whoever drew it. If anything the actions taken by the people who comitted the arsen just proves this political cartoon to have some merit.

its not about the humor they are just pissed because there is a bomb on mohammeds head and they dont want people to think every muslim is a terorist.


And the perfect way to do that is to commit acts of terrorism..right?

they are not rioting they are attacking danish and belgian embassies and mcdonals kfc and shit like that
i mean it can still be considered as rioting but they got a target. what else could they do?

What the FUCK does that mean? How about not burning down buildings and not trying to start a war. How about going home and praying for forgiveness of those who comitted the "blasphemy" . If anyone on this earth tries to justify this in any way...:wtf:

[citizen]

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=11257638&src=rss/topNews

[Tenchuu]

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=11257638&src=rss/topNews

misread the article, sorry. not what i thought it was. Intersting thought to see that given the choice between human life or pride, pride is that mutch more impotant.

[Var]

Those people should be killed immediately. They are putting a hit out on someone. That's just fucked up.

[HaLo]

What the FUCK does that mean? How about not burning down buildings and not trying to start a war. How about going home and praying for forgiveness of those who comitted the "blasphemy" . If anyone on this earth tries to justify this in any way...:wtf:

So a Muslim that starts a riot is accused of terrorism and inciting to war while youth clashing with police at anti-universalization summits are demonstrators? That's double standards to me. It's easy to say all muslims are terrorists by making your opinion on what your biased media shows you.

I'm a Muslim, I am strongly appalled by these cartoons, am I a terrorist too?

[HaLo]

Those people should be killed immediately. They are putting a hit out on someone. That's just fucked up.

Is that the american way of thinking: answer violence with violence? I don't agree with putting a bounty on the heads of the cartoonists, nor do I agree with their demonstrations gone wrong, but come on! Kill them all is not an answer. It will only escalate violence and create more "terrorism".

[90RS13]

This to me shows the mindset of alot of the world today. People are so focused on their rights, and their right to say whatever they want. Just because you're allowed to say something doesn't mean you should. The person that made the cartoon had to know that his actions would make the muslim community very angry and at the very least had to know there was a strong chance for violent protest. But he did it, cause it's his right and "Muslims shouldn't care". Well whatever, when someone incites violence and excuses it by saying it's his right, he's just as low as the violent acts he's incited.

On another note, I'm very proud of my fellow Zilvians for keeping this thread on a mature level.

[blue109]

Is that the american way of thinking: answer violence with violence?

are you really asking this question? it may not be the "american" way of thinking, but it sure as hell is policy

[Var]

I'm a Muslim, I am strongly appalled by these cartoons, am I a terrorist too?


Only if you go burn buildings down. Then yes you are a terrorist. I never called you a terrorist so stop putting words in my mouth. You can be appalled all you want. And all I can say is too bad. I'm appalled by a lot of things too. Too bad for me too. Life goes on.

[Var]

Kill them all is not an answer. It will only escalate violence and create more "terrorism".


I dont want everyone to die(well secretly i do) but what i meant was that the people that put a bounty on someone for drawing a stupid picture should be killed. I hope someone photoshops the shit out of that picture and makes it even worse. Not out of spite towards Muslims, but just because it should be allowed. I've seen all kinds of fucked up pictures/cartoons of Jesus and i just felt bad for whoever drew it and i was sad. Not threatened or angry. I definitely didn't want to burn anything down or go protest against the artist. And it's probably because we've got lives to attend to rather than worrying about what someone else did across the globe that pisses us off. There's enough in my own house that pisses me off. I dont have the patience nor do i give a shit why people did what they did .There is NO excuse for what happened. Any way you put it will be wrong. I'm not comparing it to other situations, i'm not saying there aren't double standards but it was stupid and unecessary

Maybe Indians should burn down slaughterhouses and blow up restaurants because cows are sacred to them. That makes just as much sense. I relate it to the same level as a crip starting a fight with someone wearing red. Too fucking bad if you dont like him wearing red.. Put your dick away and start thinking with your brain.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by HaLo
So a Muslim that starts a riot is accused of terrorism and inciting to war while youth clashing with police at anti-universalization summits are demonstrators? That's double standards to me. It's easy to say all muslims are terrorists by making your opinion on what your biased media shows you.

I agree with you on the first part...that is a double standard in a way (most demonstrators, however, do not voice support for terrorist groups as many of the Muslims who are rioting have done) And no, not all Muslims are terrorists...but almost all of the major terrorists are Muslim. And as far as media biased; if the media is biased towards anyone it is the Muslim terrorists. Look at the news; from the reports you would think that all soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan do is managed to get killed. There is nothing (or very little) on the construction efforts to bring a higher standard of living to the people, as well as freedom. Not only that, but terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan are reffered to as "insurgents" and even "freedom fighters" What kind of cowardly freedom fighter kills his own people and kidnaps helpless aid workers, instead of attacking legitimate armed targets? as is usually the case in attacks in both countries.

I'm a Muslim, I am strongly appalled by these cartoons, am I a terrorist too?

I don't think you are a terrorist, you are appalled by something that offends your religion as you should be. I'm a Christian...I see alot more offensive things to my religion than you do I'm sure; just watch alot of TV shows, they rarely are mocking Muhammed or Allah, or Buddah etc., and the name of Jesus Christ is much more often used as a curse then a name. But when these things happen do thousands of Christians riot and kill innocent people? No.

And as far as I'm concerned, anyone involved in any way with a succesful assasination on an innocent man (who probably was unaware of the Muslim stance on images of Muhammed) are terrorists. They are to be dealt with as such. Hunted until captured, and brought to justice, or killed.

[KA24DESOneThree]

None of this was important when the contest for the drawings first took place. It was a cleric who took the Danish drawings along with some false drawings (i.e. drawn solely to enflame the anger of the crowds TO HIS OWN WHIMS) and began parading them around the Middle East after they'd already been out a few months.

He fanned the flames, and now he has blood on his hands.

What about the people burning the American flag and destroying American businesses? What the hell were they thinking?

It's all great proof of what happens when a mob mentality takes place. One lowlife decides to throw a rock and all of a sudden molotovs are lighting up the place like firecrackers on Chinese New Year's.

Culture and politics have created this monster. The citizens of the countries are oppressed by power-hungry leaders. They are led astray by clerics whose goals are not focused heavenward but rather toward money and power. Islam is actually holding the Middle East back, not because of its core values but because of those implementing the doctrine. You want to see a giant leap forward? Execute the corrupt clergy.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by KA24DESOneThree
They are led astray by clerics whose goals are not focused heavenward but rather toward money and power. Islam is actually holding the Middle East back, not because of its core values but because of those implementing the doctrine.

I second that.

[yudalicious]

The most common name in the world is Mohammed, I don't think that analogy holds up. Reguardless, it seems to me that the violent reaction is a very small section of islamic society.
What makes me personally angry about this situation is that the european publications that reprinted these cartoons like 5 months after their initial printing and controversy don't seem to have any remorse about stirring up all of this trouble. I am in no way discouraging freedom of the press, but there has to be limits of good judgement on their part to keep from printing inflamitory and irresponsible language. IMO, the conservative western european publications that reprinted these comics almost maliciously are almost as responsible as the reactionary elements of the islamic world that jumped all over this and commited any violence during protests, which should not suprise anyone.

well said

they are free to burn our flag, i am free to draw pictures of whatever i want, and maybe even burn them after.

i cant wait til someone makes a cartoon of this in flash.

there's many ppl more qualified than me to say something regarding Islam, but it seems to me that if you, with the knowledge that these publications/cartoons cause violence and threaten innocent people, still, for some egotistical reason that I cannot possibly comprehend, think they should continue to be published, are not much better than the terrorists. Like I said I'm no expert on Islam, but all I know is the publishing of these cartoons result in violence towards innocent ppl, then, can we, jsut for one moment, put away our pigheadedness and stop publishing these cartoons, just for the sake of those innocent ppl that might get hurt in the streets.

I honestly do not understand why some extremists react this way, all I know is if these cartoons are continually published more ppl will/might get hurt. If we did what you advocate, there'd be just more dead/injured people. You're NOT going to change the way extremists think, can we put aside out pride enough and show some respect for human safety? You stress that because "it should be allowed." Well guess what, for some reason, the extremists DON'T allow it, and we're not going to change that anytime soon. Their extreme reactions are stupid and unnecessary, but I would say your suggestion, if carried out, would belongin the same class.

I dont want everyone to die(well secretly i do) but what i meant was that the people that put a bounty on someone for drawing a stupid picture should be killed. I hope someone photoshops the shit out of that picture and makes it even worse. Not out of spite towards Muslims, but just because it should be allowed. I've seen all kinds of fucked up pictures/cartoons of Jesus and i just felt bad for whoever drew it and i was sad. Not threatened or angry. I definitely didn't want to burn anything down or go protest against the artist. And it's probably because we've got lives to attend to rather than worrying about what someone else did across the globe that pisses us off. There's enough in my own house that pisses me off. I dont have the patience nor do i give a shit why people did what they did .There is NO excuse for what happened. Any way you put it will be wrong. I'm not comparing it to other situations, i'm not saying there aren't double standards but it was stupid and unecessary

Maybe Indians should burn down slaughterhouses and blow up restaurants because cows are sacred to them. That makes just as much sense. I relate it to the same level as a crip starting a fight with someone wearing red. Too fucking bad if you dont like him wearing red.. Put your dick away and start thinking with your brain.

[s14slide]

Just to throw some info into this whole mass of opinions, facts and figure and other gibberish, this cartoon release was actually a planned event. An editor for a newspaper out of Denmark expressly requested cartoons of Muhammad from every cartoonist with a Danish cartoon syndicate. Only 10 out of 40 accepted the invitation, most of which submitted politically neutral toons. But three of those 10 where not so easy. to quote a paragraph from an Ann Coulter;

"One showed Muhammad turning away suicide bombers from the gates of heaven, saying 'Stop, stop - we ran out of virgins!' -- which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. Another was a cartoon of Muhammad with horns, which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. The third showed Muhammad with a turban in the shape of a bomb, which I believe was an expression of post-industrial ennui in a secular -- oops, no, wait: It was more of a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence."

I couldn't agree with this writer more. I also agree with just about everything else she wrote in the column if not all. I'm over here seeing this crap first hand. There is still a lot of crap that happens that the media still doesn't show us Americans, the general public.

Also on top of that, a Pakistani cleric has put a $1-million bounty on the head of the cartoonist who put these out. Kill a man over his opinion? Over a joke? Over nothing really? Maybe it's a sign of violence, hidden somewhere. No, it's violent over reactons over something that's really nothing. People have been pissing on the bible litterally and figuratively for a long time now. I don't see huge actions of violence and bounties put on peoples heads for it. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe all Muslims are prewired for violence, but I do believe that your more likely to catch some schrapnel for downing anything under the Koran than just about any other religion. A predilection for violence among those does exist, and I am seeing it first hand.

In a region of the world that has been fighting over religion for as long as anyone cares to remember or think about, doesn't seem like they're going to be passing out hugs anytime soon.

[Var]

You get a star. :rawk:

[theicecreamdan]

I'm a Muslim, I am strongly appalled by these cartoons, am I a terrorist too?

You are strongly appalled, BUT you haven't killed anybody over it. No you aren't a terrorist. I haven't seen anybody with any sort of credibility say that all muslims are terrorists, nobody here is saying it.

[theicecreamdan]

when someone incites violence and excuses it by saying it's his right, he's just as low as the violent acts he's incited.

On another note, I'm very proud of my fellow Zilvians for keeping this thread on a mature level.

I agree with this too, I don't see the actions of either side of this controversy as justifiable. But the not so muslim muslims are less justifiable.

[24Dee]

i do agree that it's wrong to degrade any Prophet of God in any way, but at the same time, i think the reaction is entirely too ludicrous. there is just so much animosity and hate built up within most of the global muslim clerical rank & file that they look for even the slightest window of opportunity to prod their constituents into taking severe action against anyone who perpetrates their cause or simply against anyone just for the sake of violence and more importantly, attention. its truly sad to see the kinds of things muslims have chosen to rally under -- conflict, contention, strife. Mohammed taught of tolerance first above all else. i guess the muslim community must have skipped that part of the Qu'ran, and went straight to wrath, which coincidentally would be brought about by God and not them as loyal followers of Islam. the muslim world will continue to deteriorate further and further because it will never recover from the effects of the spreading poison within itself.


some additional food for thought . . .


From The Economist, http://www.economist.com/world/displ...ory_id=5467043

...outside observers might be forgiven for thinking that political Islam, in various violent forms, was on the march against the West. In fact, the Islamist movement, though it may look monolithic from afar, is highly quarrelsome and diverse, and in many ways its internal divisions are deepening....

Then compare political Islam among the Sunnis to the Shia variety, of which Iran is the vanguard. Vast religious differences, stemming from a split that occurred in the seventh century, separate these groups. They still give a sharp edge to the conflicts of the present day, most obviously in Iraq, where thousands of lives have been lost in Sunni-Shia violence....

In its doctrine and ethos, the simple, back-to-basics Sunni Islam from which the Brotherhood and al-Qaeda sprang is about as different as any Muslim practice could be from the sophisticated, scholarly world of the Iranian Shias, with their elaborate clerical hierarchy and long tradition of studying and adding to a corpus of texts. But when it comes to operational matters, especially against Israel, terrorist groups sponsored by Iran have no qualms about tactical co-operation with their Sunni counterparts. Hamas, for example, has good working relations with the al-Quds Force, an external arm of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. And suicide bombings against Israeli civilians, now regarded as a Hamas trademark, were probably inspired at first by Hizbullah, an Iranian-backed, Shia movement based in Lebanon....


From the Baha'i Writings:

Such was the fate that overtook both Shi'ih and Sunni Islam, in the two countries where they had planted their banners and reared their most powerful and far-famed institutions. Such was their fate in these two countries, in one of which Baha'u'llah died an exile*, and in the other the Bab suffered a martyr's death. Such was the fate of the self-styled Vicar of the Prophet of God, and of the favorite ministers of the still awaited Imam. "The people of the Qur'an," Baha'u'llah testifies, "have risen against Us, and tormented Us with such a torment that the Holy Spirit lamented, and the thunder roared out, and the clouds wept over Us.... Muhammad, the Apostle of God, bewaileth, in the all-highest Paradise, their acts." "A day shall be witnessed by My people," their own traditions condemn them, "whereon there will have remained of Islam naught but a name, and of the Qur'an naught but a mere appearance. The doctors of that age shall be the most evil the world hath ever seen. Mischief hath proceeded from them, and on them it will recoil." And again: "Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.'" And still again: "At that hour His malediction shall descend upon you, and your curse shall afflict you, and your religion shall remain an empty word on your tongues. And when these signs appear amongst you, anticipate the day when the red-hot wind will have swept over you, or the day when ye will have been disfigured, or when stones will have rained upon you."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 98)

[*At the time of Baha'u'llah's Ascension, the Ottoman Empire covered territory that now includes Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, the Palestinian Territories, and parts of Egypt]

[24Dee]

A picture is worth a thousand words for me:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r1363645636.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r399679231.jpg



Quote:
protestors demonstrates in front of the French Embassy, over the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, in London February 3, 2006.



And this one in front of Danish Embassy:

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp12502031855.britain_denmark_europe_llp125. jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp12602031854.britain_denmark_europe_llp126. jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r1365134527.jpg

Quote:
Muslim protesters chant slogans as they march towards the Danish embassy during a demonstration in London, Friday Feb. 3, 2006.

[SimpleS14]

Oh man......

[Nan Desu Ka?!]

I don't remeber who said it (long thread) but someone made the point that Christians openly dissreguard extremest Christian factions, as do a lot of the other major religions. My question is this, why haven't those "appalled" muslims spoken out about their own religious fanatic factions? Why not openly say " We are also Muslims and we dont condone this type of violent protest. We are deeply hurt an apalled by the cartoons, but not enough to murder and maim innocent people." I think that would make people stop and take notice more than just MORE killing and death and bombs.

It's the same premis that EVERY OTHER race has come through. It happens when the hateful sterotypes are scorned privatly but there is nothing done to stop the further proof of those stereotypes.

I agree with Var when he said

"Sure you can. That's called freedom of speech. I can say all kinds of shit about any religion. I choose not to out of respect. And if i did say anything about Islam, down to the worst thing you can imagine, nothing will justify what happened. What happened is an example of primitive thinking.
"
Primitive indeed. An eye for any eye, just makes both men blind.

Oh and in response to you question, Halo:
"Is that the american way of thinking: answer violence with violence? I don't agree with putting a bounty on the heads of the cartoonists, nor do I agree with their demonstrations gone wrong, but come on! Kill them all is not an answer. It will only escalate violence and create more "terrorism"."

It seems to me that those muslim extremest under the guise of that radical cleric don't even need violence to propagate more violence.

It seems like they have not gotten past the childish mentality that when they get angry they throw things around their room as if to say "hey look at me im angry! waaaaaaaaaaa" In time we grow up and learn how to deal with that anger in a way to dissipate it and get our point across at the same time. Those who participated in these riots and those Muslims depicted in 24Dee's pictures are holding onto those childish ("primitive" even, thanks Var.) reactions.

Christians get pissed on every day. No crazy slaughtering and bombs there.
I am not in an way a Christian, but it is a valid example, so it holds credence to this argument.

I will close with what I said earlier, and eye for an eye makes both men blind. period.

[kazuo]

I don't remeber who said it (long thread) but someone made the point that Christians openly dissreguard extremest Christian factions, as do a lot of the other major religions. My question is this, why haven't those "appalled" muslims spoken out about their own religious fanatic factions? Why not openly say " We are also Muslims and we dont condone this type of violent protest. We are deeply hurt an apalled by the cartoons, but not enough to murder and maim innocent people." I think that would make people stop and take notice more than just MORE killing and death and bombs.

Except that they have, and do, constantly, and have been doing so since 9/11.

You people forget that there are over 1 billion (thats right, billion) Muslims in this world, and you're essentially stereotyping them ALL based on a literally small percentage of whackos.

"Well, gee, I see some groups of Muslims protesting on TV, talking about fuck freedom and burning the American flag and shit, they must ALL hate us"

Great reasoning

[Nan Desu Ka?!]

point taken, but you rarely see anyting on any news medium at all about them condemning (and DOING something about it) those fanatics within their culture.

""Well, gee, I see some groups of Muslims protesting on TV, talking about fuck freedom and burning the American flag and shit, they must ALL hate us"

Great reasoning"

I never said they all hate us, nor do i belive the actions of these groups dictate the mindset of they entire culture but i just dont see much of what the rest of the muslim population is doing to stop this kind of beligerant, murderous nonsense.

just my opservations and MHO.

[Var]

I'm confortable enough to hate everyone. So i hate everyone. Including everyone. So fuck everyone. Those idiots with the signs, they should be killed on the spot.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by Kazuo:
You people forget that there are over 1 billion (thats right, billion) Muslims in this world, and you're essentially stereotyping them ALL based on a literally small percentage of whackos.

"Well, gee, I see some groups of Muslims protesting on TV, talking about fuck freedom and burning the American flag and shit, they must ALL hate us"

Great reasoning

You are right, not all Muslims are terrorists. I know that more of them are than you and most other people would like to think. But a large segment of the Muslim population that does not directly engage in terrorist actions express support for those who do.
One thing I think everyone should be aware of and pay attention to is what was said by a particular Islamic leader a short time ago. He shouted to a riotous mob of Muslims that "the war has begun!"

That is what is coming. Not a war like most people think of when they think of the word war. Not a clash of militaries for the most part, but more a clash of civilizations and the religions that founded them. The west being founded on Christianity, and the east on Islam. Unfortunately most of our society does not see this; and has forgotten many of the values our society was founded on.

And yes, as said in a previous post, there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. There are also over 1 billion Catholics and other Christians, as well as millions of Jews. The world population is around 6 billion; that means that over 1/3 of the population of the world is already involved in this. Alot of them just don't realize it.


For consideration; this is what the Hadith(supposedly written by Muhammed) says about Jews:

"Judgement Day will come only when the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind the tree and the stone, and the tree and the stone say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

[Andrew Bohan]

it's shit like that that makes me dislike religions in general. they all have some sort of "we are right and everyone else is wrong so we should make them like us or kill them" kind of thing.

[Phlip]

Borrowing from the mind of one of my favorite writers, the problem with us, as Americans, is nihilism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nihilism), there is very little we actually view as being as sacred as it should be, or as we pretend it is to us.
In such, when people in places other than our back yards behave as they should in relation to the weight of something in their minds, we look at them as if there is something wrong with THEM. I cannot say i am not guilty to an extent, but honestly, who IS wrong here, the people acting out over something they consciously feel strongly about, or the individual that created the very item that got them all worked up?

[Andrew Bohan]

the answer is simple
consider the statement "there is no one right way"

everyone does what is right to them.
robin hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. it was illegal but it was right to him.
i drive 80mph in the canyon where the speed limit is 35. it is illegal but it is right to me.
some guys drew cartoons making fun of mohammed. it is against islam, but those guys weren't muslim, so it's ok to them.
some guys burned down buildings and killed people in response to that. it is illegal to the europeans but it was right to them.

everyone has their own idea of what right is.

[EroGori]

the answer is simple
consider the statement "there is no one right way"

everyone does what is right to them.
robin hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. it was illegal but it was right to him.
i drive 80mph in the canyon where the speed limit is 35. it is illegal but it is right to me.
some guys drew cartoons making fun of mohammed. it is against islam, but those guys weren't muslim, so it's ok to them.
some guys burned down buildings and killed people in response to that. it is illegal to the europeans but it was right to them.

everyone has their own idea of what right is.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. It is never alright to kill people over some drawings, no matter how disrespectful you find them. Sometimes things are grey, but this isn't grey. It's barbaric to answer a cultural difference with violence.

I feel that both sides, Muslim and Western are getting moved into a war that is driven by propaganda on both sides. We are seeing lots of hate and intollerance on both sides. So who is going to gain when both sides, western and islamic, engage in a battle of propopanda, economics, and possibly warfare? China

[Andrew Bohan]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. It is never alright to kill people over some drawings, no matter how disrespectful you find them.

you don't disagree with me, you disagree with them. i never said they were right. i only said what they do is right to them.

[kazuo]

point taken, but you rarely see anyting on any news medium at all about them condemning (and DOING something about it) those fanatics within their culture.

Why do you think that is?

Consider the source of your "news".

i just dont see much of what the rest of the muslim population is doing to stop this kind of beligerant, murderous nonsense.

just my opservations and MHO.

What do you want them to do? Politely ask the crazy people with guns to stop being crazy?

Good idea.

I'm confortable enough to hate everyone. So i hate everyone. Including everyone. So fuck everyone. Those idiots with the signs, they should be killed on the spot.

I agree completely. To quote you:

"People are stupid and should be killed immediately"

Seriously. I agree. Not kidding.

People are fucking retarded and need to be saved from themselves.

For consideration; this is what the Hadith(supposedly written by Muhammed) says about Jews:

"Judgement Day will come only when the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind the tree and the stone, and the tree and the stone say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

First of all, the text says "disbelievers," NOT Jews, and secondly, the Hadith are sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad, not written by him.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by: Kazuo
First of all, the text says "disbelievers," NOT Jews, and secondly, the Hadith are sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad, not written by him.

Point taken, they are sayings, not writings. My mistake.

And if the text says "disbelievers" not "Jews"(the text I saw says Jews) my case still stands. In fact it is that much worse. All unbelievers must die? Well, I'm an unbeliever and will NEVER convert to Islam; therefore I must die...so must all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Athiests...everyone who is not Muslim according to that interpertation. Again, whether the text says Jews or not, you cannot deny that Islam is anti-Semitic. A religion that calls for the destruction of Israel, deny's the holocaust (or wish it had succeded when they admit it happend) and calls killing Jews "a duty" is most defintely guilty on that charge.

I'd like to give an example of something. Several years ago (16-17 I think) some "artists", from where I don't know, put on an art show. This art show featured a very...controversial...exhibit. The exhibit was a statue of Jesus Christ...submerged in a tank of blood and human urine.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Piss_Christ.jpg)
These Muslims are rioting and murdering over cartoons, that most paper's won't publish. Christians showed amazing self-control when this display became public (and was printed in every major news paper and magazine practically). They did not riot, murder and call for the death of the artists. But Christianity teaches forgiveness and love toward those who wrong you...to bad, if Islam even does, few Muslims seem to pay attention to it.

[Nan Desu Ka?!]

Why do you think that is?

Consider the source of your "news".



What do you want them to do? Politely ask the crazy people with guns to stop being crazy?



I expect them to DO something about it. rather than just stand by and say, hey we dont like this but w/e not our problem.


You are right, not all Muslims are terrorists. I know that more of them are than you and most other people would like to think. But a large segment of the Muslim population that does not directly engage in terrorist actions express support for those who do.


My thoughts exactly.

As for my source of news i try to make it varried, but ill try to broaden my spectrum... not like all i see is fox2 and stuff... im pretty internet savy. BBC, Google, Yahoo and a lot of independant sources is what i try and look for.

[Andrew Bohan]

i get most of my world news from the ap and cnn

[HaLo]

Point taken, they are sayings, not writings. My mistake.

And if the text says "disbelievers" not "Jews"(the text I saw says Jews) my case still stands. In fact it is that much worse. All unbelievers must die? Well, I'm an unbeliever and will NEVER convert to Islam; therefore I must die...so must all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Athiests...everyone who is not Muslim according to that interpertation. Again, whether the text says Jews or not, you cannot deny that Islam is anti-Semitic. A religion that calls for the destruction of Israel, deny's the holocaust (or wish it had succeded when they admit it happend) and calls killing Jews "a duty" is most defintely guilty on that charge.


Once again, you put all muslims in the same basket, saying our whole religion is anti-semitic... According to the Quran, Christians and Jews are referred as the people of the book because we do recknognize the validity of the Old Testament, the Psalms and the Bible.....

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by: HaLo
Once again, you put all muslims in the same basket, saying our whole religion is anti-semitic... According to the Quran, Christians and Jews are referred as the people of the book because we do recknognize the validity of the Old Testament, the Psalms and the Bible.....

I know not all Muslims are anti-semitic. I also know what the Koran says about Jews and Christians. But the issue is not what Islam teaches on this subject. It is what most Muslims declare as their beliefs, either through words or actions.

But now I have a question. If Islam teaches what you claim towards Christians and Jews, and their beliefs, why then does the hadith I posted previously state what it does:
"Judgement Day will come only when the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind the tree and the stone, and the tree and the stone say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

Another post said the text says "disbelievers" not "Jews". In either case, my question is this. If the hadith above calls for the death of all Jews or unbelievers, why does the Koran say different? The Koran was written by Muhammed. Why does he contradict himself? And if one of them is wrong...which one? the Koran? the Hadith?

To make things clear...from an encyclopedia: Hadith:
Muslim scholars classify hadith relating to Muhammad as follows:
-What Muhammad said (qawl,قول )
-What Muhammad did (fi'l,فعل )
-What Muhammad approved (taqrir,تقرير ) in others' actions.

[HaLo]

I know not all Muslims are anti-semitic. I also know what the Koran says about Jews and Christians. But the issue is not what Islam teaches on this subject. It is what most Muslims declare as their beliefs, either through words or actions.

But now I have a question. If Islam teaches what you claim towards Christians and Jews, and their beliefs, why then does the hadith I posted previously state what it does:
"Judgement Day will come only when the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jew hides behind the tree and the stone, and the tree and the stone say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

Another post said the text says "disbelievers" not "Jews". In either case, my question is this. If the hadith above calls for the death of all Jews or unbelievers, why does the Koran say different? The Koran was written by Muhammed. Why does he contradict himself? And if one of them is wrong...which one? the Koran? the Hadith?

To make things clear...from an encyclopedia: Hadith:
Muslim scholars classify hadith relating to Muhammad as follows:
-What Muhammad said (qawl,قول )
-What Muhammad did (fi'l,فعل )
-What Muhammad approved (taqrir,تقرير ) in others' actions.

The Koran was not written by Muhammed according to Islam, it is the word of Allah. As far as I know, what you quoted was a Hadith, not the Koran... And Hadith are sayings / action reported by people that were following the Prophet: not the word of God.

As a Muslim, you have to follow.
1. The Koran.
2. Then Hadiths.

If the 2 contradicts, the Koran is the reference.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by HaLo
The Koran was not written by Muhammed according to Islam, it is the word of Allah. As far as I know, what you quoted was a Hadith, not the Koran... And Hadith are sayings / action reported by people that were following the Prophet: not the word of God.

As a Muslim, you have to follow.
1. The Koran.
2. Then Hadiths.

If the 2 contradicts, the Koran is the reference.

If Muhammed is Allah's prophet, why does he contradict and disobey Allah? Because if the Koran is the word of Allah, given to Muhammed, anything Muhammed does or says should be in agreement with the Koran.

You answered part of my question about the two contradicting, which one is to be followed. There is something similar in Christianity regarding the old testament and the new testament.

I could say more; but I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you or your faith, and even if that was my intention, this is hardly the place for it.

[HaLo]

See, Hadiths are things that have been reported by others. Some hadiths might not have the same validity as others. Say a hadith as been approved or reported by 15 people while another has been reported by 1 person... some might have stronger meaning, some don't.

Anyways, you have the right to believe what you want, but from what I see here, our community condemns most terrorist acts, yet, that does not show up on newstands because that does not sell papers or stories.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by HaLo
Anyways, you have the right to believe what you want, but from what I see here, our community condemns most terrorist acts, yet, that does not show up on newstands because that does not sell papers or stories.

I certainly agree with you on that. And I hope all, not just most, terrorist acts would be condemned.

It's not often you see discussions on religious differences, and things like terrorism not end in some stupid arguement or insults or whatever. Nice to see one turn out different for a change.

[SilviaDriver]

i pray to the god of BOMEX to help me speed over my rival

[Andrew Bohan]

i'm glad this thread hasn't got too nasty too

good job guys

[Tenchuu]

Zilvia.net, where religions are respected but never stupid questions :rofl:

anyone that says zilvia is immature hateful assholes should be referred to this thread. Bring up an legit topic, have intelligent non flame questions and watch what happens.

[KA24DESOneThree]

The problem with religion is beliefs. Ideas are fine, beliefs are bad. (Chris Rock in "Dogma")

Take the current problems with the Sunnis and Shiites. They're all worshippers of the faith of Islam yet kill each other becaues of their "differences." STFU you morons and learn that without unity there will never be understanding.

[mRclARK1]

Originally posted by: KA24DESOneThree
The problem with religion is beliefs. Ideas are fine, beliefs are bad. (Chris Rock in "Dogma")

Chris Rock is a funny guy; but I doubt I'd take anything he says about religion (at least in a movie made to mock it) seriously. Saying a religion should have ideas, but no beliefs, is kind of like saying a 240SX should have an engine...but no wheels. A religion is not much of a religion without some beliefs (I'm not saying ALL beliefs are good), and a 240 isn't much good without wheels to drive on.