Windage trays for the KA24de & det's

[BigVinnie]

Well I have been on the hunt for better bottom end parts for the KA24de. NISMO does offer a fully counter weighed crank with rods and pistons for a hefty price tag, so I wasn't willing to go that route.
I wanted something affordable, that can still allow the harmonics of the half weighted crank to run smoother at higher RPM, (basically cutting down the windage process, that disturbs harmonics, and oil flinging).
In doing a little R&D I came accross crank scrapers, Kevin Johnson the owner and designer makes scrapers for the KA24de. Recently I asked Kevin if he had any windage trays, and at the time he didn't have any to offer.
Well it has been about a month and a half since I asked that question, and now he finally has one in the works.
IMO this will be a wise investment for half weighted crank engines, trying to accel higher rpm's, what is your guy's opinion......
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/KA24DE_windage_a.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/KA24DE_windage_b.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/KA24DE_windage_c.jpg

[ReLevent1]

can you explain more about this part and how it would help?

[projectRDM]

I just ordered mine along with the scraper about an hour ago. I'll do a writeup/impression when they go in, but so far I'm impressed as hell with their customer service. Very quick to reply (I mailed late last night with a few questions) and eager to assist. I figure for the price you can't not put them in if the motor is already out.

[BigVinnie]

can you explain more about this part and how it would help?


I'll try my best to explain.
A windage tray actually makes the bottom end space between the pan and crank shaft smaller. The smaller tighter space within the crank shaft, will allow for less windage or what would of been turbulance without the tray, an unbalnced movement with the crank at higher RPM's without the tray. Oil splashiong occurs between the sump pan and the crank without a windage tray.
I like how this windage tray is designed, still allows for maximum flow of oil to the sump and pan. Since the area of the tray is moved upward (closer to the crank) it can actually help to control the temprature enviornment of oil as well.

A crank scraper is an affordable way of knifing (not really a knife edged crank, but simulates the same effect by breaking wind and oil that disturbs the harmonics of the crank @ higher RPM). Scraper and windage trays are very cost effective for todays performance cars, and are found in todays porches, and lambo's. The sr20det even utilizes stock windage trays ( more as a scraper louvers), do to the fact that the stock sr20 crank comes with knife edging, and bullnosing from the factory. But like it says it's a scraper, it removes oil before it gets flung around in the engine.
I am very pleased to see that Kevin takes the time to hear consumer feed back, this is infact IMO an excellent affordable product, that allows the consumer options other than knife edging the stock KA crank...

PIC of the scrapers
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/scraperKA24de.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/scrapergasketKA24e.jpg

[fastzepplin]

This is an oldschool V8 trick.

I just don't believe a crankscraper would yield great results due to the fact that our cranks are located higher in the block - which greatly reduces the area of the counterweights the crankscraper may affect. The pictures above show this perfectly. Our cranks don't exactly cut through the oil in the oil pan since the oil level drops bellow the oil pickup baffle once the engine is started.

It's ok in theory I guess.

[ReLevent1]

can you pm me where i can purchase these parts?

[BigVinnie]

This is an oldschool V8 trick.

I just don't believe a crankscraper would yield great results due to the fact that our cranks are located higher in the block - which greatly reduces the area of the counterweights the crankscraper may affect. The pictures above show this perfectly. Our cranks don't exactly cut through the oil in the oil pan since the oil level drops bellow the oil pickup baffle once the engine is started.

It's ok in theory I guess.

Actually if you look at an engine that is similar to the KA (in displacement), you can take a look at the crank scrapers home page and dyno results for the 2.4litre NA PT cruiser engine. It delivered 7+ HP and 13+ft/lb.s of additional torque @7500RPM, and engine temprature dropped. Beyond any theory Kevin has actually dyno tested most of his work.
Gabe Z (devious KA) also reffered to purchasing the crank scrapers and has used them on his L series engines.
Beyond any theory there is proof to back up that it does work..
Here is the website......
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/

[atom]

Just because the Chrysler has a 2.4 4 banger does not make it even remotely similar to the KA. The dude has a point, the crank location is a hinderance to it's effectiveness. But for 110 for both it's not like it's a big investment to get both pieces.

[BigVinnie]

Just because the Chrysler has a 2.4 4 banger does not make it even remotely similar to the KA. The dude has a point, the crank location is a hinderance to it's effectiveness. But for 110 for both it's not like it's a big investment to get both pieces.

I was just basing it to relative displacement, and that it isn't just an oldschool V8 trick........ Many 4bangers even in stock utilize scrapers. Why not a KA? I say for the price it's worth it and more than likely there will be noticeable gains.......
As for the crank being hindered from this there still needs to be somesort of proof that states otherwise. As far as I've noticed the windage tray bolts to the girdle and the weights come very close to the girdle, I don't think that it really deals with the pan......... Or maybe I'm missing something..

[ReLevent1]

so would this be worth getting for my ka-t setup? or is this mainly for na motors?

[BigVinnie]

so would this be worth getting for my ka-t setup? or is this mainly for na motors?


You could use it for NA or FI setup's.

[projectRDM]

The other benefit here is to prevent oil frothing or starvation under extreme cornering loads. You guys can argue power increases all you want, for $110 and about 30 minutes worth of work it's a gain across the board in numerous areas. Cams don't really do a huge amount for a KA either, but combined with other parts and for the ease of dropping a set in in under an hour, why not do it?

[BigVinnie]

In my opinion if it does it's job in cooling oil, and increasing rpm I'll buy it as well the KA defenitely can utilize these parts........ R240NA I can't wait for your write up.....

Stated from the website....
During normal engine operation a significant amount of oil adheres to or becomes entrained in a cloud surrounding the spinning bottom end. This oil eats up horsepower your engine is making by increasing the rotating mass and also creating parasitic drag. A crank scraper mechanically strips off excess oil by coming close to, but not touching*, the moving crankshaft and rods. It also interferes with the pressure differential that draws oil into the so-called windage cloud.

This also makes sence so I'm sold.......
Yes. The rod and main bearing journals are constantly spraying large amounts of oil in all directions when the engine is operating. Much of this oil lands directly on the cylinder walls and other internal components which depend on splash lubrication. The scraper removes oil directly only from portions of the surface of the crankshaft and the rod big ends, neither of which depend upon lubrication of any sort. These components, as well as the pistons, do depend upon a flow of oil to cool them. By constantly removing oil that has contacted these hot surfaces and allowing fresh oil to re-wet and cool them the thermal efficiency of the engine is enhanced. Hopefully, too, the user is reassured by over four decades of the successful and dependable use of scrapers in OEM stock engines as well as competition engines of all sorts.

[Kevin Johnson]

Just because the Chrysler has a 2.4 4 banger does not make it even remotely similar to the KA. The dude has a point, the crank location is a hinderance to it's effectiveness. But for 110 for both it's not like it's a big investment to get both pieces.


Vinnie was right on with his comparison to the 2.4 P.T. Cruiser engine. The depth in the block is about the same. Another good comparison would be the VW engine. Or the BMW sixes and fours or the ... There are quite a number of this typical style being used successfully (Thousands?). Some old British engines have extremely deep skirts like the Triumph straight six and four -- I angle the patterns in on those engines.

I did not use the same attachment method as with the L20B four and L series sixes because the oil pump entry into the block would make the scraper cross section too narrow at the inner counterweights.

The pics below shows one of the prototype Dodge 2.4 scrapers and the VW one is on a customer's engine.

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/actual%20Dodge%202.4%20scraper%20installed%20a.JPG

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/1_G.jpg

[skatanic28]

thanks for letting us know!
i have come across the crank scrapers before, but not the windage trays.

[highkck]

This bolts on the bottom of the motor not on the oil pan correct? It can be installed when I pull the oil pan to weld a bung on it correct?

[ledzeppelin240]

Windage trays are used in quite alot of engines, they also help with the people who tend to overfill thier crankcase. Does anyone make a windage tray for the KA24E?

[wootwoot]

I plan on ordering my crank scraped/windage tray from Ishihara-Johnson this week to put in my "taking 30 bajillion years to get done" motor. They do not offer teflon for the rwd sr though, oh well! Save me money

[projectRDM]

This bolts on the bottom of the motor not on the oil pan correct? It can be installed when I pull the oil pan to weld a bung on it correct?

It bolts between the block and oilpan.

[NemeGuero]

Damn, i want one of dem! It took 24 degrees off the top RPMs of that PT engine.

Good find Vince! KA power for life! haha

[NemeGuero]

Windage trays are used in quite alot of engines, they also help with the people who tend to overfill thier crankcase. Does anyone make a windage tray for the KA24E?

the same site lists applications for KA24E

[TougeSR20Kid]

i know you said the stock sr20 uses a windage tray... is this true for all years, reason i ask is i have a red top and this could've been an addition in later years... if so then would there be any reason to upgrade to a specific windage tray or do they all work relatively the same?

[BigVinnie]

i know you said the stock sr20 uses a windage tray... is this true for all years, reason i ask is i have a red top and this could've been an addition in later years... if so then would there be any reason to upgrade to a specific windage tray or do they all work relatively the same?

It's not really a windage tray on the SR, but scraper louvers that come in individaul sections. I don't know what all the model years it came on. I work on KA's......

[boosteds13]

Anyone ever get one of these?

[Project_Slipangle]

heres a very topical side note. if you really wanna cut down on starving your motor and keep oil from flinging in the pan heres a nice site to check out

http://www.drysump.com/pan16.htm

btw it comes w a windage tray. pricy but tyte as fuck. dry sumps are the shit

[S14DB]

heres a very topical side note. if you really wanna cut down on starving your motor and keep oil from flinging in the pan heres a nice site to check out

http://www.drysump.com/pan16.htm

btw it comes w a windage tray. pricy but tyte as fuck. dry sumps are the shit
$448.00+$850 for the pump. I think they are in a totally different league.

[NemeGuero]

Accusump + windage tray is a cheaper alternative.

[BigVinnie]

heres a very topical side note. if you really wanna cut down on starving your motor and keep oil from flinging in the pan heres a nice site to check out

http://www.drysump.com/pan16.htm

btw it comes w a windage tray. pricy but tyte as fuck. dry sumps are the shit


None of that is needed for your typical street racer, and it doesn't work for 240sx KA24e/de's with the main girdle, you would need a truck KA24E/DE truck block... Or of course get the right parts to convert the 240sx block over for no girdle... Overall just too expensive and not worth the headache unless I had a 8000RPM redline KA......

[miked808]

Here is a picture taken while I had the Motor out for a swap. Scraper comes in Two pieces and had to be filed in some places for the clearances I wanted. Windage Tray bolts right in.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9181/install3si.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[S14DB]

Here is a picture taken while I had the Motor out for a swap. Scraper comes in Two pieces and had to be filed in some places for the clearances I wanted. Windage Tray bolts right in.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9181/install3si.jpg
How long after you ordered did you receive it?

[miked808]

It took about a week.

[hitman]

i orderd windage tray and crank scraper the other day. should be here in like 2 weeks.

[S14DB]

I haven't heard from them since the 12th. :(

[boosteds13]

I haven't heard from them since the 12th. :(
That's because they don't like you! (and me, because my motor doesn't go in, til yours goes out!)

[Tomslide50]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but is there anyone that got theirs in that can give me their driving impressions for the crank scraper? I had one in my last car (bmw I6) and loved it. Ken is a great guy to deal with too! The first one they sent me skipped in the cnc machine and the holes were off. As soon as I told ken this he immediately(right after he got off the phone with me) made me a new one, and personally fitted it to a test motor he had around to verify it was correct. Then he got in his car and personally drove it to the airport and overnighted it to me free of charge! I have one on the way for my KA so in a bout a week I'll be able to see the difference for myself, but have any of you installed one? What kind of a difference does it make on these motors?

[miked808]

I don't know if it made a Horsepower difference but as far as keeping the Oil in the Pan I'm confident it's doing that so worth Time and Cost.

[godrifttoday]

Bringing this up from the dead! Anyone used this with an accusump?